Re: Pirelli thread, are there any natural horsemanship techniques you rate?

I'll tell you who I am, I'm someone who is going to watch Steve Halfpenny teach next week near Hereford. So in the interests of fairness, I'd like to know what you are talking about and when it happened so that I can ask him about it. Maybe even ask the owner. Because I have seen this man work with horses for many years, and in two different countries, and I've never seen him come even close to working a horse into the ground. As for a horse subsequently being found to have arthritis, yes that happens, but presumably at the time of the clinic neither the owner or the trainer was working with a lame horse. Or the owner would have stopped, even if the trainer didn't, wouldn't they?
As for the comment about working in-hand. I think you are confusing Parelli with the rest of the "natural" movement. Many think that Parelli is a very bad example of how things should be done and what can be acheived. Luckily, Parelli is just the method advocated by one man and his team and there are plenty of better trainers out there if you care to look.
 
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I have always employed a lot of 'NH' techniques in training my horses even though I was trained the BHS way and had no idea of the term 'NH'. I believe we called it listening to the horse.

Every technique should be used as a tool, get lots of tools in your toolbox and then pick and choose what works best for you and your horse. However, I can't stand Parelli and I think that lumping that under 'NH' gives the rest of them a very bad name - mostly as the majority of the Parelli-ites seem to think that its their way otherwise you're being cruel to your horse!! Plus the insane prices etc, surely the whole point of working completely 'naturally' (for want of a better word) is not having to use stupid 'wavey in the air' sticks and inflatable balls but just your body language and tone?
 
The only equipment used by NH practitioners seems to be the carrot stick the saavy string ( to quote Parelli terms) , the 12ft long line and the rope headcollar and occasionally the gym ball,( though I ve not seen it in use with any NH trainers) = relatively low expediture, I would have to say.
From past experience the gadgets used in conventional methods are far more extensive including, Lunging cavasson, roller, side reins, breast girth, Abbot Davis Balancing reins, Pessoas, various other items such as Market Harboroughs, Chambons , in hand bridles etc then there all the boots to protect you horse from what you are making it do so unnaturally, with it head forced down to the floor or even strapped to its tail!!! (LOL).
Appears there is a huge range of stuff far exceeding the purchase cost of any NH methodology, even if you do buy the DVDs and audio stuff!

Well just a thought, - that no -ones raised so far in defence of the NH start up equipment costs. -
I await public shooting down in hail of bullets as usual!
 
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Mine's a difficult loader, and one day three of us tried to get the little sh@t into a trailer; he ran back, jumped off the ramp and up the hedge, and then decided he was gonna p**s off back to the yard with me being dragged behind him. So in desperation I rang an Intelligent Horsemanship practitioner.

Within 10 minutes (if that), she'd got him calm cool & collected, and walked him into the trailer as if the little toad had done it every day. Magic!

So as far as I was concerned, an instant convert. I'd been cynical before, and still think that some of the "natural" stuff is nothing more or less than good horsemanship and sensible practices which good horsemen have always used without shouting about it and labelling it as anything, BUT if we're all having to re-learn these things, then that's all to the good.
 
Equipment? In my case a rope halter, 12ft line, stick with a 6ft string on it (not used very often) and a longer 22ft line. I also use a schooling whip (shock horror!) and a shorter version of the training stick when riding. Everything else is "normal". (ish!). I can't remember how much the stuff cost, it's not Parelli and was a bit cheaper, but it's lasted and lasted, so I've got no complaints.
 
jinglejoys said:
Could that be because you weren't doing it correctly?Or maybe like my mule your animal is fight not flight so join up doesn't work and you might do better with The Catching game/
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Don't think I was doing it wrong. I'd watched a few friends do it and asked them what they were doing so they told me, I tried it, I failed lol.
He's flight, definitely. But instead of running away he hides in the nearest corner. If you just sit down in his field or in the stable he'll come up to you then he's fine. He's still not 100% with a bridle or headcollar, but a million times better than when he first came :)
Something bad has happened in the past =/ luckily he's still young and appears to have a very forgiving nature so it's just a time thing. He already trusts me enough not to run away at every move I make, so we're getting there :)
..my Mule on the other hand does absolutely nothing xD he leads, rides, drives, everything and doesn't really live upto the "stubborn mule" thing.
I always thought mules did better with being in one home and that's it but he's been passed around abit and came from the same place as my welsh (the one who didn't understand join up) he's more laid back and the welsh is more weary but still loves attention in the field.
They're both so opposite but such fun to work with :)

I'm still not a fan of Parelli, but I don't like writing all the NH people off. Because I know some NH methods work for some horses, just not all of them lol.
 
eahotson said:
Actually Kelly Marks doesn't call it natural horsemanship but intelligent horsemanship as she says there is nothing remotely natural in putting tack (even bitless and treeless) on horses at all.
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There is,IMO a lot to like about KM.
For a start,there is stuff she would like to sell,but I don't think I have ever seen her say you need X piece of equipment,just that she finds it helpfull and the time she said something along the lines of
don't trust anyone but you,it's your horse at the end of it.
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The demos are on H&C a lot,and I have not seen any of the horses pushed too far/stressed out ect but have seen a lot helped.

I simply think you should read and learn all you can-use what makes sense and you think will be usefull and ignore the rest.
 
Kittykins said:
We always did join-up with the riding school ponies I learnt on ("we" being myself and the other saturday girls). It seems to make sense, and it seems to work.

I know a lot of people don't seem to much like Kelly Marks herself, but her books seem well written and, again, make sense. I'd like to have a good relationship with my (new) horse, so I'm going to give some of the techniques a go. She is a horse that likes to be bossed about a little bit as she seems to feel safer that way, and I'd rather boss her about in her own language than just using the whip constantly.

Anyone else had good results from natural horsemanship?
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Why do people seem to think that any-one who does not do 'Natural Horsemanship' and the like (and go round telling people that they do it) use a whip constantly? I assume they mean to hit the horse with?
As I like to keep an open mind I have watched NH demos but have seen very little achieved that I haven't been able to do at some time with some horse or other. I have ridden many a horse bareback in the past but at 55 years old with a 16.3 I choose not to do so now. My horses 'join up' without any special lessons, they know that they are welcome to come and say hello but that they are not welcome to crowd me in the field etc. My horses are all well-mannered.
I have seen a technique used to teach a horse to back up, where a rope was flapped in its face/under its chin. This did make it go back, but with its head raised as it startled. Why would any-one do that? I prefer to keep my horses calm.
I do use a schooling whip, usually to keep away dogs when hacking and if leading for any distance to hold in front of the horse's nose/chest to deter rushing or to wave near quarters to encourage forward movement. I do occasionally bring the schooling whip into contact with the horse but very rarely.
I also prefer to use a halter rather than a headcollar but would never pay £30+ for something I can make from a bit of string. I actually like nice, thick, white rope halters.
I find that simply expecting a horse to do what you have said consistently and then insisting that it does so if necessary work well for me. For instance my mare has recently tried to come out of the stable before I've said its OK, so I insisted that she go backwards several steps, before rewarding her and allowing her forwards. I simply used my voice and the rope halter, no whips, waving arms or shouting were involved.
 
I use some Richard Maxwell techniques, I don't know if you would call him NH or just common sense. As far as I can tell the only recommended equipment is a slip halter and a lunge line, but they are not essential.
 
I have been to a few Richard Maxwell demonstrations and his work always made a lot of sense to me. I also appreciated that he was working with ridden horses to help solve problems, not just the 'usual' groundwork I have seen with others. He was more than happy to advise after the demos.

I have also seen Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks and found their shows entertaining but didn't go away thinking 'I must try that at home!'

As people have already said, it is a combination of common sense and horse sense; I was a 'late starter' when it comes to horses so had to try and learn from a range of people.
 
i dunno why we have to attach labels to everything. Keep your eyes and your mind open and take from it what works for you and your horses. I've had some success with using ideas from Kelly Marks books, from the Roger & Joanne Day book the Fearless Horse (they bred & early trained Primmores Pride) and I've snitched ideas from people at the yard who 'do' Parelli. At the same time I've learnt most of what I know from BHS methods. At the end of the day its common sense and horse sense. Just don't be closed to anything.
 
Flapping sheets of plastic and large flags around my horse ;)

Excellent preparation for when you're doing dressage on a very windy day and there's a big plastic sheet flapping at the side of the arena :D
 
Last edited by peteralfred; Yesterday at 09:45 AM. Reason: can't be ar5ed

Does that mean you were wrong? I want to know the facts about your statement too - you can't make accusations like this and not back them up. It amounts to defamation.
 
Well, it's not true is it? There's no problem with quoting facts, look at the latest Parelli thread - name of trainer, owner, horse, venue... Parelli gets a chance to respond, why not extend the same courtesy to other trainers who are having very serious accusations made about them.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Why do people seem to think that any-one who does not do 'Natural Horsemanship' and the like (and go round telling people that they do it) use a whip constantly? I assume they mean to hit the horse with?
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I was thinking more for riding, to be honest - I went to try my new horse a couple of weeks ago. Her previous owner has had some trouble with her for the last 18 months in that she's been stopping, planting, and going backwards when legs are applied. So I jumped on her in the school and was told "as soon as you get on, give her a few taps with the stick to show her you're the boss". Well, actually, I'd rather see what sort of mood she is in than get on and instantly start waving my whip around.

Likewise, I've seen a lot of people who, when they have trouble loading, tend to try and drive the horse forwards into the box using a combination of someone dragging at it's head whilst someone uses a lunge line or whip at the rear end.

'Traditional' BHS style horsemanship does sometimes seem to be based around "showing a horse who's boss" rather than working with the horse on their level. I'm not saying the BHS method is cruel or wrong, just not necessarily the sort of relationship I'd like with my horse.
 
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