Re-scheduling of U18/PC area competitions=unnecessary choices

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Mooseontheloose

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It appears that yet again BE and the PC are in conflict, this time regarding the re-scheduling of the U18 championships to July from next year.

There may be parents and members with the time, energy, horsepower and money to be able to take part in both the PC area competitions in July and the U18 Champs, but mere mortals will have to make a choice and I think this choice in many cases will result in BE winning out. There's a perceived kudos to being a 'BE' eventer that the PC doesn't have.

What the PC does have is it's own USP in that it's primarily an education and welfare organisation with it's main remit to instil in it's members the best and most practical way to care for their ponies, regardless of whether they are equine super stars or bog trotters. There is a progressive training system through tests which at higher stages can be a fast track to BHS qualifications. It provides a young person with friends who will be friends for life, with shared interests regardless of background and competition ability.

Playing Devil's Advocate, is it now time for BE, BS and BD to work with the PC and provide the top level competitions and championships? BE already provides some PC sections, perhaps all events running lower levels could. BS and BD could similarly provide some competitions for PC members. It could work in everyone's favour. All the energy, time, finance and man hours put into running Area and PC champs could be re-channelled towards increased training not only for PC members but also for it's coaches and trainers.
Of course Branches could continue to run their own and inter-branch friendlies and even develop these further at the lower levels. It appears to me that the number of open area teams is getting smaller.

Alternately, of course, BE could review their policy of allowing very young members to compete in their competitions. I personally question how appropriate it is to have 11 year olds competing against adults – from the adults point of view this can be humiliating and from the child's point it can put a ridiculous amount of pressure on!

Some years ago I was told by a BE official, and it was meant kindly, that there was no point in pursuing pony trials with our pony, as frankly my cheque book wasn't big enough. Luckily no PC official has ever said that to me!


However, I feel it's a huge loss all round to both members, branches, disciplines and to the future horse industry if the benefits of the training, welfare and social mobility offered by the PC are dissipated. Once gone from the PC to pursue the other disciplines, it is difficult to come back, and I have lost count of the number of young people who have said to me that they wish they'd kept up their PC tests so they could save money on their BHS stages later on. They also missed the camaraderie that is lost when competition is the driving force.

It is also very obvious when watching training as to which coaches have been through the rough and tumble of the PC themselves, and have a deep knowledge of when it's necessary to 'kick and scrub' a pony along, and those who have only dealt with the more talented superstars of the horse world.

I feel that there is such a huge depth of talent out there, of goodwill, kindness, generosity with time, money and horsepower, that surely it is time for more joined up thinking, for working together rather than against each other.

If you have taken the time to read all this, thank you. The views are for discussion, hopefully constructive.
To set out my own stall, I have only three aims:
1 – to improve the standard of riding;
2 – to improve the standard of coaching/instruction and
3 – to improve the standard of horsecare across the board, whether at top level competition or the much loved back garden pony.

My whole life has been shaped by my early PC experiences. From a horseless/landless/knowledgeless home I was enlisted by our local DC, and have gone on to make friends, gain memories, get jobs, develop a huge amount of experience (and make a lot of mistakes!) and it saddens me that for some young now choices will have to be made early on, perhaps when they're in the midst of having to make many other life changing choices such as exams and careers.
 
I hadn't even thought of that, but its a good point..

I assume that given the standard at open pc level, most if not all also do BE..

Fiona
 
With the new eligibility restrictions for PC I suspect this would only be an issue for those at Level 5?

I have wondered about the wisdom of the tighter eligibility criteria - in all 3 main disciplines - as it does seem to force a choice of affiliated v PC and history tends to suggest PC might loose out. But I can also see the point that the same faces appear at championships year in year out competing at the same level or sometimes higher in the relevant affiliated discipline. This does try to open out the championships as a stepping stone to larger affiliated competition. But there could well be an impact in terms of members. Only time will tell!
 
I read all your post with great interest, and agree with you wholeheartedly, especially the point that we are going to lose something very valuable soon if something isn't done. I do feel that BD, BE and BS are keen to 'poach' PC members, with their special offers and better rewards system (i.e. points systems and prize money), but what are they offering the PC in return? Not a lot that I can see.

And once a member has joined BE, BD or BS, their priorities change. We have several seriously good members who have been supportive for years and always prioritised their PC, but when I now ask if they are available for summer teams, they check their diaries and say sorry but no, it clashes with x, y and z affiliated competition, and we lose out.

This has an impact down the line - once a branch loses its open teams, the next age group down don't have the older ones to look up to, and they start to peel away. It would be interesting to look at the numbers across the country if you have time - how many Area competitions have a huge entry at Novice level, say 30+ teams in show jumping perhaps, then a reasonable entry at Intermediate, and a mere handful of team entries at Open? It shouldn't tail off this badly.

We are losing older members to the affiliated organisations, but are the organisations putting in the amount of grass-roots training that the PC has done to get these riders to this level? I don't think so. It's the training that is so important and once numbers drop to a level that can't support the level of training that is required, we are in big trouble.

We offer subsidised training with seriously good local instructors, yet have had parents complain about the cost and the size of our groups. Then the same parents will cough up twice the price for a one-off group lesson with a BE or BS 'name' - most of which is spent assessing the rider and horse as the name has never seen them before, and not much gets done in the hour, but the parents are delighted because they can say they have had a lesson with so-and-so! No credit to the PC trainer who has spent hours getting that rider to that level.

What's to be done? No idea! Sadly the PC is now regarded by the older teens as being old-fashioned. Dress code rules in PC are great for younger members teaching them about standards and etiquette, but can quickly become tiresome as the members become older. I saw an older member humiliated at a tack check because she had a small brass decoration on an otherwise beautifully clean bridle - no kind remarks for her tack cleaning, just a piece of duct tape to cover up the offending decoration and a lecture. The rider did not renew the next year. A smile from the tack checker would have saved the day.

I hate bling in any shape being a dyed in the (tweed) wool PC type, but equally there needs to be a little understanding of a teenager's brain. A kinder approach works wonders. Sorry I have gone off post, just a bit of a rant on my personal pet hate :)

Am interested in how this thread develops...
 
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply, all of you, to my rather long rant! I've often said the PC can seriously damage your health!
However, for people like I was as a child, it's an organisation that must survive, and not just for grass roots.
I feel that the PC misses a trick in not pushing the benefits of holding the B test - which most older members can get with some work: being able to do US summer camps, short cut to BHS stages, recognised round the world, and so on.
I also feel that there is too much emphasis on those with competitive ability at the higher levels, which makes some older members feel inadequate.
But, but...... to miss out on camps, water fights, pc dances, trips to Olympia and all those other activities good branches run, plus where else can a teenage boy find himself on his own with forty adolescent girls!
So, off piste a little from original post, which is the insensitive scheduling. I do also think parents are slightly taken in by the disciplines, thinking their offspring WILL be Charlotte Dujardin if they only go to enough clinics.
 
My daughters all did PC mainly between 13 - 17 and learnt a huge amount and had great fun but I think the problems start as they get older. We live in Cornwall and generally competing involves a lot of travelling. My youngest daughter did a bit of BE, a lot of BS & some BD alongside PC. Given the choice of travelling to an Area PC comp or a BE event the same distance away she would go for the BE since she had a chance of winning 'something' even if it was a cap and although Tack and Turnout has its place she wouldn't be stopped from competing because she was wearing a short sleeved shirt.
She qualified for Int. SJ champs which for us is about a 7 hr trip (at least) she chose to do a BE event 2 hrs away instead, although she would have liked to go it was too expensive to get and stay there. We would do the BE training because generally PC training would always be done by the same instructors and often there would be very few who would want to train at a higher level so they would end up in the lower group, often gaining little.
 
The very topic of falling PC numbers was discussed at my local branch's committee meeting early this week and it seems this is a problem being experienced nationwide. Sadly PC is not seen as "cool" these days and many members would much rather compete in affiliate competitions than go to PC. The BS academies seem to be open to all levels and from speaking to one trainer some of the kids turning up could really benefit from some PC education regarding turnout, tack fitting, feeding etc.

As far as area competitions are concerned it seems the numbers at the top end are falling drastically and as Duck Toller says there are fewer older competitors for the youngsters to aspire to. I train our branch's open and intermediate competitors and this year I had one individual doing all three disciplines at open level, two doing intermediate dressage and one intermediate show jumper. Ten years or so ago we fielded two teams in each discipline at open level. We are cetainly not the only branch like this, in our area at open level there were only 3 individuals each in the show jumping and in the dressage and in the event one team plus two additional individuals. A few years back our branch had two open teams in each discipline as did other branches. It certainly is very sad and something that I would hope BE, BS and BD would be open to discussing. Clashes of dates will only aggravate this situation and yet many of our top riders started off being educated in the Pony Club.
 
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Eventingmum, my experiences are similar. When my eldest was competing our branch had two open teams for all disciplines. However, there were no novice or intermediate champs then, and the open team was something most competitive kids were aiming for.
This year I see our Area barely had open event teams, mainly individuals. I do think the time has come for some serious discussion on the expense of running an open championships when it represents such a small percentage of the total membership, and this is where I think closer liaison between the disciplines and the PC could work. What about an open champs at Gatcombe? There are now lots of big events running PC competitions alongside, Blenheim, Burghley, Houghton and so on. Obviously this brings younger members in contact with the top eventing world very early on. Perhaps this could be used to everyone's advantage, rather than being seen as a 'poaching' exercise.
What is worrying to me is the lack of horsecare training when people leave the pc, especially if they come from non-horsey backgrounds.
At a recent BE event I saw a beautiful pony left tied up for hours unattended to a 200K lorry in the full sun, directly on to the metal ring with all the locker doors open for it to cut itself on. Of course, it didn't, luckily, but hopefully a pc child would know how dangerous it was. Maybe I'm thinking wishfully!
 
As an aside - what about us pony clubbers in NI? We are still part of pcuk. How can we join in a BE champs when we event under eventing Ireland?

The PC champs is something here that we all aim to get to & is seen as a huge achievement. We have to get a ferry to cross the sea & then drive 6 or 7 hours. But still we go - because it's the championships.
I actually think that there are less open competitors because people have exams/uni/work so don't have the time. I'm the oldest member in my branch at 24 - and I help in all aspects and there are lots of members aged over 20 in my club - I think it's just the area tbh.
 
I think it varies from Area to Area. My daughter is part of a very small south London based branch. We have 3 associates (all children of committee members); my daughter at 16 and the next one in age is 14. We've been to the Championships for the last 3 years - and will be there again this year - but always as an individual as our branch can't muster a team. (Other than Quiz & H&P care of course - national finals for both those too!)

We took a conscious decision to remain in PC, although we have done BS Juniors and currently BE. But scheduling issues like this, the restricted eligibility I mentioned above, the rather restrictive approach which can be taken to tack & turn out and the fact that - for most kids - they can win real money at other events is a big draw. The decision to remain PC gets harder each year. Does anyone know if this issue is being discussed at all at national level?
 
'Does anyone know if this issue is being discussed at all at national level'

Shay, Well, we are now! Hopefully it will be taken up if BE and PC can be persuaded that there is a groundswell of interest out there. We pretty much put the PC first but times have changed and the opportunities are much wider and the pressures on young riders and their parents are much greater. But, I would say that having had flirtations with the disciplines things tail off very quickly when you are no longer a child prodigy!
only_me - I do understand about the travelling etc., I've always been impressed with the effort the Irish teams take to come to the champs, plus the branches from the very north of Scotland. Quite an undertaking, but even on mainland it takes us six hours to the champs. And you're right about pressures being so great on older members. Unless you're very lucky it's very difficult to continue once uni and life get in the way.
 
I've noticed a massive shift over the 10+ years I've been taking my own kids and now sending branch kids, to PC Area competitions.

Back in 2003, my eldest competed at Intermediate SJ and eventing, it was that or Open, on his 13.1 pony. The following year, age 13, he was in an Open eventing team, and there were about 10 teams plus individuals.

This year, in our area, there were a handful of Open eventing competitors, and no teams. Plenty of Novice teams tho'! It is the same in the SJ, no Open teams this year, and dozens of Novice and 80cm teams.

I think it is a combination of things, def. partly because you can go to Championships for Novice and Intermediate now, but also, I feel that there is not the same desire from parents or kids to move up.

When we were going to the Championships at Sansaw, it was seen as the thing to aim for, yes, it was a long way and expensive, but you really felt you had achieved something by just getting there. Then they added Intermediate Champs, then moved to first Shelford then Draycott Manor, and the Open Champs started to be less and less valued.

No idea what the answer is, but it is sad to see the way the top level has dwindled away.
 
In my mind and certainly how I treated Pony Club was to start it at a young age and spend several years learning, doing teams etc. and then once I was doing open eventing / SJ then I decided to affiliate. Isn't this sort of the point of PC, they start you off and get you up their highest level and then you affiliate if you want to progress on. I know the low levels of BE and BS nowadays perhaps attract kids away from PC but surely its up to the PC to try and make it so inviting for the kids to stay? I don't really think its up to BE, BS, BD to have to worry about it?
 
I understand that a working group has been set up between the Pony Club and BE, BS and BD to see how they can work together more closely etc., so it will be interesting to see what transpires.

I think part of the problem is that these days to be competitive at PC Area and Championship level, it really helps to have experience at affiliated competitions - PC branch competitions are just not enough. My daughter initially joined BE after several years competing at PC to get more XC experience at 100/PC Intermediate level for PC eventing and tetrathlon, as there were just not enough PC competitions of this standard locally. She then got hooked and was keen to carry on with BE. She does still do PC as well, but it is very time-consuming to do both so I can see why some families have to decide between one or the other.

Pony Club also have the 'rallying up' rule which can mean that some otherwise eligible combinations can't compete at Areas as they have not completed enough rallies in the calendar year. The intention of the rule is good, to encourage 'true PC members' who are involved in training as well as competitive activities, but I know some people find it frustrating when they can't compete due to missing rallies due to holidays, illness/injury of horse/rider, switching to a new horse etc. Whereas they can go out and do BE, BD or BS without such complications.
 
TGM said:
Pony Club also have the 'rallying up' rule which can mean that some otherwise eligible combinations can't compete at Areas as they have not completed enough rallies in the calendar year. The intention of the rule is good, to encourage 'true PC members' who are involved in training as well as competitive activities, but I know some people find it frustrating when they can't compete due to missing rallies due to holidays, illness/injury of horse/rider, switching to a new horse etc. Whereas they can go out and do BE, BD or BS without such complications.
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It is only three rallies so not a huge undertaking. Also the team selectors need to know the combinations they are sending and if they haven't been to rallies they won't be a known quantity.

Possibily the fact that both BS and BE now have much lower entry level competitions doesn't help. You can event affiliated at 80cm - lower than the novice PC and yet have the perceived "prestige" of competing in an affiliated event.

As regards the lack of open competitors, many see it as a step too far and are happy at novice or intermediate level, they just don't seem to want the challenge of the higher levels. My son went straight from juniors to open, there wasn't any intermediate then, he was 14 and so had a few years at open level before heading off to uni. Nowadays our intermediate and open competitors are often much older and can be away at uni or working which makes it difficult to have horses fit in time for the areas. We all loved going to Sansaw, I went to Draycott with other members and felt it lacked the atmosphere of Sansaw, the champs need to be something special with a championship feel to encourage competitors. Due to personal reasons my open show jumper can't go this year so I won't know what the current venue is like.

I have to admit my son didn't go to the champs on a couple of ocassions that he qualified but that was because he was competing at CCI* and ** at Blair so possibily a reasonable excuse and the qualification was passed on to another rider to go.
 
EventingMum said:
It is only three rallies so not a huge undertaking. Also the team selectors need to know the combinations they are sending and if they haven't been to rallies they won't be a known quantity.
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It does depend on the branch and how many rallies they have and when they hold them. Some branches seem to have rallies almost every week, whilst others might only have one in each school holiday, in which case it can be harder to fulfil the requirement if things don't go to plan. I've known situations where riders have been regular members of a branch since a very early age (so their capabilities are well known), but have not been able to do Areas due to a rally deficit in the previous year. I'm not saying the rule is wrong, but just using it as an illustration of why the alternative of affiliating seems easier. Our branch are also very strict that you have to be free to compete at the Champs as well as the Area - we would not be allowed to substitute another member as you did (unless a genuine reason such as horse injury etc).

I do agree with you about the importance of a decent Championship venue as well. Have never been to Sansaw, but we went to Draycott and were quite shocked how basic the venue was compared to the RC Championships we had been to previously. Cholmondley Castle seemed a definite improvement although for various reasons we didn't get to see much of it last time, spending more time travelling there and back than we did at the venue.
 
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As someone who is mainly an outsider to the PC I would say they need to or at least consider the following.
BE now starts at a much lower level. This has encouraged people over the line, and once there, they don't come back. They know exactly where they stand as regards to size and questions asked, which is not the same across the unaffiliated spectrum.
Riding clubs now tend to have healthy junior sections. This is partly due to the lack of a tack check, but in my area, it is also due to the fact that it is always the same people who get onto teams (regardless of ability) and they have often not been to many rallies either.
A friends daughter did all the RC teams instead, as she found the people were much more all inclusive!
Personally I think the PC would be wise to consider getting the affiliated disciplines more involved with teams and championships, which would then mean children could lead on up the ladder.
 
TGM said:
Our branch are also very strict that you have to be free to compete at the Champs as well as the Area - we would not be allowed to substitute another member as you did (unless a genuine reason such as horse injury etc).
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Sorry, I didn't explain that clearly enough, I didn't mean the branch substituted another member, it was an individual qualification which was passed to the person (from a diferent branch) who had finished second. Our branch also likes members to commit to going to the champs if they qualify especially if they are in a team but my son was an individual in the instances this happened.
 
Well, there are a lot of views here, let's hope someone from on high in all the disciplines and PC read them.
My main worry is the lack of other training, as I've said elsewhere, and the huge pressures put on riders and parents.
MagicMelon, you have a point about the PC being the starting base for riders, but I do think the rescheduling of U18 champs was a little short sighted.
For state school riders they will also possibly still be in school, some starting straight into AS after GCSE. Not everyone finishes the first week in June and I thought the reason the U18s were being rescheduled was to avoid school absences.
 
Mooseontheloose said:
. Not everyone finishes the first week in June and I thought the reason the U18s were being rescheduled was to avoid school absences.
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The article I read about this said that the new Under 18 Championships would be 'at the end of July 2016', which would almost certainly be in state school holidays, as they usually finish around 22/23 July in our area.
 
Just to add, I do think the introduction of the Grassroots Championships and BE100u18 Championships have had an effect on PC membership. Before their introduction, PC members at 90/100 would stay in PC for Areas and Champs as there was no BE National Championships at those levels to aim at. I think Grassroots started in 2010 and BE100u18 Nat Champs in 2013. I know in 2012 our branch had 3 strong teams at Intermediate level at Area, yet this year we could only muster one individual at that level.
 
Our branch has seen an obivous drop in membership this yr and this has been obivous at areas with no open or imediate show jumping or eventing team. We still have a dressage team but this was mostly made of eventer as many of the 'true' dressage riders including myself are no longer prepared to risk our horses legs on grass especially as the open test has increased in difficultly to be more inline with an easy medium. The ground at areas has be awful for the last few years including this year with it being described by one eventer as like oil. So despite still being an active pony club member ( i continue to train, help and compete for example Dengies) I am unlikley to ever compete at areas again :( . This isnt a decisions I have to make BD and i would still be doing areas if it was on a surface ( though i understand why they are not).
 
I guess that I am lucky as my teenage daughter is now out of U18s so we won't have that conflict - but she did change schools for 6th form, partly in order to be able to compete at the CCIJ* U18 Champs at Weston Park as her previous (boarding) school were adamant that she could not have the time off school to compete if she was picked for her Regional Team. So on that basis I applaud the decision by BE to move the Championships out of school term time. However, on the other hand to re-schedule them for the end of July so that they clash with PC Area competitions does not seem sensible either, forcing young people to make choices when, with a bit of thought and co-operation they could potentially do both. Certainly my daughter would have found it very difficult to make the choice as she is very proud to represent her PC at area competitions and considers the PC Open Eventing Champs to be a very prestigious event and one that she would love to win! However, the lure of competing for her region at the BE U18 Champs in a CCIJ* is also very appealing and I dread to think how torn she would have been had she been forced to make a choice between the two.

When I first heard about the idea of moving the BE U18 Champs I was under the impression that the proposal was that they were going to be held at the end of August/first week of September. This would seem a more sensible time as it would potentially enable competitors to do both events and would also place more of the responsibility (and experience) for getting their horses fully fit for a 3-day-event onto the rider, whereas in July many of the U18s will still be at school until not long before the event ...

It is a shame that PC Open competitors seem to be declining across the board. However, I do feel that the PC is partly to blame for this also ... the PC Open Eventing Champs are the ultimate pinnacle for many PC members and yet they are held on the very last day (a weekday to boot) of the Championships when everyone else has gone home, with very little atmosphere and spectators. Whilst I appreciate that not everyone aspires to Open level competition, surely we should be making more of this level and ensuring that the Open Disciplines are all scheduled earlier in the Championships so that younger/less experienced members can watch and learn from their peers who are competing at this level. Senior/Open PC Members should be looked up to by younger members and should help them develop skills and experience - perhaps there could be a 'mentoring/shadowing' system at the PC Championships like the one in place at the BE U18 Champs where the Regional 100u18 team members help, watch and learn from those competing in the CCIJ* (or was this just something that Eastern Region did?!)
 
While we're on things that could help membership, I feel the rule where if you change branches you can't compete in a team for over a year, so you'll miss a complete season is mean. There are all sorts of reasons why a branch may not suit you; clash of personalities, lack of other members your age; no tetrathlon team, and so on. The PC is a club, not an institution, and a young person's time with a particular horse or pony is brief. Why you can't change branches once without any penalty strikes me as just spiteful. No one wants someone who swaps thither and yon to make up a super team, but once should be acceptable without penalty. Why would a branch want to keep someone who is unhappy with them? I think older members in particular are really able to chose for themselves. After all, you are paying the subscription and membership fee.
 
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