Re-schooling/training issue? It's a long one!

MrsMozartletoe

MrsMozartletoe

Just passing through...
Joined
27 June 2008
Messages
41,684
Location
Not where I should be...
Visit site
I'm posting this here as GM used to be a BS horse and I'm wondering if that would have any bearing on our issue... Sorry it is so long!

Grey Mare is lovely and we are very fond of her and D1 loves her, but we have a bit of an issue and are wondering if anyone has any wise ideas/suggestions :D.

16hh IDxTB;
Mare;
Twelve years old;
Sound;
Was on LWVtB at start of the year, but came home again, reason unknown (to us);
Went to stud this summer, but didn't take;
Went home to owner's field for a few months;
D1 tried her in her field, and was fairly 'forward going', but okay;
She came to us the end of October 2010;
Clipped middle of November 2010 - it's growing back;
Waves her teeth at person when girth being done up, but does not make contact - we take it very slowly and gently (owner says she was not like that before and has never been cold backed);
Back end movement choppy, until she's relaxed and then over-tracks by a hoof length;
Barefoot and has been for probably a year now - feet are good;
No heat or swellings or tender spots on any part of her;
She's fine about being touched all over;
Will not stand still at the start of the session;
Lunged nicely at first, but last time just ran round and round and round until the circle was so small D1 got hold of her bridle;
Saddle checked December 2010, is a good fit;
Sheepskin saddle cloth since Christmas;
Fleece lined exercise sheet since Christmas;
Feed is - sugarbeet (Speedibeet); vits; and salt (the land is lacking in some minerals);
Feed started end of November/start of December;
She lives out twety-four/seven with a consistent herd of four in total;
No bullying, etc., the horses, whilst having their hierarchy, are happy with each other;
Teeth done three days ago - tops at the back were sharp (last done twelve to fourteen months ago);
Wormed October 2010 and three days ago;
D1's exams and then the weather meant very little riding before Christmas;
She was bouncy, but okay (nothing to make my stomach flip);
Had a couple of flat lessons and did okay;
Her owner is our instructor, so she knows the horse and D1's abilities well;
Her owner is a show jumper (did a lot of BS);
She was a bit stressy, getting very attached to Dizz and being a bit bargy, but quiet and firm and fair handling have all worked well and she is much calmer and far less stressed now;

Now here is the issue -

Under saddle, GM is getting whappier. The sideways cantering (half a school length in a straight line - impressive if not a little worrying). The leaps (180 degrees). The spins. The always up a gear from what she is being asked for. The head and mouth yawing, with ears almost flat back.

When D1 relaxes totally and gives the contact away, she calms down momentarily, which, if D1 can keep totally calm and relaxed, will last longer. When I get D1's attention on me, all low key and calm and quiet, GM relaxes further and will (eventually!) stride out, over-tracking by a good hoof length. I get D1 to take up the contact very, very slowly and gently - if she takes it up too quickly, GM is head up and off again :(. D1 is not yet scared and is doing very, very well - GM is totally different to ride to anything else D1 has been on (she didn't ride Dizzy when the Dizz was going through her own special stage).

Yesterday was the worst to date :(. once the angst (or whatever 'It' is) had gone, GM went very nicely indeed, not consistently, but the good bits were good and there were more of them :D. We took the Mexican grackle off in case it was putting pressure on the spots where her top teeth were sharp, though dentist didn't report any sore patches. She did less mouth opening and did do some licking (out the front) and her ears were forward more than they were back.

GM is unfit and fat. The weight is coming off (she's weigh taped nearly every week). The sessions are kept to about twenty minutes, and is roughly every other day at the moment (due to the weather/freezing school).

This is a lovely, lovely horse :D. Very sensitive to the rider. Never raises a hoof to anyone. Picks on LL in the field, but only because he is at the bottom of the pecking order; she's never physically hurt him and he doesn't seem scared of her.

The only two things we haven't done yet are the back man and the vet.

I'm waiting for the back person to call me back;
We're going to cut the sugarbeet as of tomorrow (they've already been fed today) and replace with a handful of chaff to get the vits in;
If no improvement by the end of the week I'll ask my vet to come out and check her over, bloods, etc.
Instructor (previous owner) is coming to give a lesson tomorrow, so see how it goes;
Also going to suggest to D1 that she spends more chilling out time with GM - playing in the school and mooching about in the stable with her, see if that helps at all;
Bowen lady is due out to LC soon, so will ask her to give GM a session as well.


Gawd, that was a long one! Sorry - wanted to make sure I got everything down!

Any suggestions, thoughts, etc., more than welcome as to why she is so quick/sharp/leaping/scatting off at all and any opportunity - and why it's getting worse over time, but in a session it gets better.

D1 isn't asking anything of her at all at the moment, other than 'stay in the school (it's fenced), stay at the speed/gait I've asked for and in the direction I've asked for' - if she asks for more than that, it all kicks off again.
 
Didn't want to read and run but have no real advice apart from check back, ovaries and saddle as to me, if she didn't do it before, there must be a reason and I would put money on it being pain somewhere...
 
How well do you know her old owners? If they could come out and see her and give you top tips for handling her, it might really help...

Once all potential health reasons are ruled out, I'm going to say it sounds very much like GM is working out how much she can get away with... Is D1 confident enough to kick her on when she's playing silly buggers and send her forwards (at whatever cost to speed, as long as she doesn't get dangerously fast...). By trying to hold her up, or stop her, she's found a really neat little evasion tactic.
 
Thank you :)

LE - awaiting the back lady; saddle just been checked and she's not lost that much weight in a month for it to have changed, but I'll ask her to come out again; will ask the vet re. ovaries :)

Z - hadn't thought of ulcers as she's not stressy elsewhere, but worth a shot. I'll ask the vet to scope :)

L - we see her owner frequently (she's our instructor :)). She's coming tomorrow for a session, see what she thinks. I thought about the put leg on and ride through, but it doesn't seem to be just complete ar$eyness, so not sure I want to push it at the moment. If back, ovaries, saddle, ulcers all come back as okay, then we'll reasses :)

I had wondered about Kissing Spine, but I know little about it. Plus, she's whappy to start off with, but calms down every time, so long as the rider stays very calm and relaxed.

It will be interesting to see what tomorrow's session brings (fingers crossed for an unfrozen school!).
 
If no physical problems then it could be that she needs more varied and stimulating work to keep her brain and body occupied!
 
TGM - yes, she needs to get out and about and see the world again; just want to be reasonably confident that stopping won't be an issue :cool:

Going to ask instructor (owner) to get on tomorrow, see if it's a riding style issue in the first instance; though will be speaking to vet re. ulcers, etc.
 
Re. the biting thing... We had a mare who did that, and when my mum accidentally got in the way (we didn't give enough warning that we were doing the girth up) the pony drew blood... She was a sweet (if intolerant) pony, who hated her girth being done up. She'd always been like that apparently, and was far far worse when in season. If GM is now surrounded by handsome lads, could it be that she's coming into season/ has done a typical mare thing of having permanent PMT?
 
Has she come into season? Do you know how she behaves when in season? Why was she sent to be put into foal? You may know all these answers but I'd never buy a mare in winter because so many have behavioural problems in the spring/summer!!
I hope that it is none of these issues and just some more lessons with the insructor who knows her will sort the problem out. Good luck! :)
 
L - no sign of a season and other than the waving teeth when tacking up, and the whappy when ridden, she's fine. Not marerish and quite chilled these days. Will ask the vet though tomorrow :) (and yes, very handsome chaps :D :D).

CB - will check re. seasons with her owner tomorrow. Sent to stud as she's well bred, good confo, bred by her owner who wanted to keep her foal to bring on for herself. As above, she's not a twit at any time really other than when girthing up and under saddle, the rest of the time she's fine :) :).

I'll let you know how it all goes :)
 
I had a horse with KS and he could be like that [as in very very tense through his back and neck, leaping around and waving his head in the air - but it got better over time not worse] - it could be pain related or equally as likely it could just be over freshness and general naughtiness.

Worth checking to see for anything that could be pain, but the way I would handle it would be to keep her constantly moving forwards in a steady trot and do lots of changes of direction in small circles/figures of 8 - keep her concentrating and she can't rush off.
 
S - ta hun. I'll put the KS to the vet as well. D1 has kept the work at the trot, with the aim of keeping her moving forward, with breaks to walk due to her unfitness; lots of steady transitions and changes of rein, but all steady, overcook any of it and she's off. Thank you for the thought :D
 
Just throwing something in here, but my TB is crazy at the moment (thinking bucking and attempting to p*** off every time we canter, barely contained in her jumping bit, and 8 in a row big bucks uphill tonight when I let her go), because she's not getting enough cantering and jumping due to the weather. One winter a year or two ago this happened as I couldn't ride during the week and only hacking at weekends, and she got so bad we were cantering sideways up the road with very little control at all. A couple of rounds of SJ fixed the whole thing, as she got her leaping around 'fix'. She's this bad fit or unfit (after box-rest when she was 5yo she was so bad I wouldn't get on and had to freeschool her for a week or two to get it out of her system first), whenever the 'run and jump' fix is in short supply.

And to fit with your situation, I'm ok in walk and trot, ok if there's very little pressure on rein or leg, but add any, and she's off. So if everything checks out ok pain-wise etc, maybe this is something to consider.
 
No really helpful suggestions I'm afraid but D1 has my sympathies, we've all been there and it isn't much fun.

I do wonder if the Speedibeet is wappying her. G went onto Speedibeet when the snow came and it certainly kept his weight on but he came back from two weeks off like a child that had been eating blue smarties and red bull. Have cut it right back and he's calming down again. RI reckoned he was so full of himself he just didn't know what to with himself.
 
MaS - Good thinking. Maybe we should put some jumps up and free school her over them, just to see if she needs that sort of buzz.

The YO is quite understanding, so as soon as the summer field is slightly softer, but not total bog at the top, they can go for a play in there :D
 
wellsat said:
No really helpful suggestions I'm afraid but D1 has my sympathies, we've all been there and it isn't much fun.

I do wonder if the Speedibeet is wappying her. G went onto Speedibeet when the snow came and it certainly kept his weight on but he came back from two weeks off like a child that had been eating blue smarties and red bull. Have cut it right back and he's calming down again. RI reckoned he was so full of himself he just didn't know what to with himself.
Click to expand...


It could be. Benji1 suggested it earlier today as well, so will be knocking that on the head as of now, will go to just a handful of chaff for her vits :). D1 says Ta :)

Thinking about her reaction, it could well be the feed; the only thing that makes me question is that she's fine to handle (other than the girthing up bit), in fact she is much calmer than she was, it's just when the rider gets on. I can't ride her at the moment, plus I don't think my stickability is as good as D1's these day, so I'm no use for testing the other rider theory (I don't know anyone I'd ask to get on as she is right now).

Sorry, I shouldn't laugh at the thought of small child on Red Bull and blue Smarties :D
 
Just thought I should add that the issues my KS horse had got better with me - as in, I didn't know he had it, he seemed sound, had the back man out who never said anything, passed a 5 stage vetting etc - and through schooling he improved 100 fold. I think it all went rapidly downhill when I sold him and he was being worked by somebody different, and that was when he was diagnosed :(

ETA another thought - my very calm sensible mare went through a stage of being an absolute tit midwinter when she wasn't getting enough exercise and was still on fairly high protein feed - turned from being almost too lazy to a bucking bronco! So took the feed down and that helped - may be something to do with it here if the sugarbeet is hyping her up!
 
Last edited:
I would be inclined to agree with the free school idea. My own mare is behaving identically and there is nothing wrong with her that a good jumping session won't fix. She was such a brat today out hacking that we met a neighbour on the road who said there's nothing like a young horse to show you up. Cue massive laughs from OH as his angelic mount stood for a chat while dolly practiced airs above the ground. when we stopped laughing we explained to neighbour that Dolthe "bold young horse" is 15 and the OH's schoolmaster lead horse is a newly backed 4yrold!
 
okaaaay... umm, the ears-back-while-being-girthed-up concerns me, i would definitely get a McTimoney Chiro (or similar, but those are my favourite tbh) to check her over. it can be tight muscles in that area, which means that the moment they're girthed up, they aren't comfortable.
after that's been checked, i'd be tempted to put her to work a little if she's being silly. rather than asking her to walk if she's sidling around etc, i'd put her on a 20m circle, keep repeating the 'steady, calm down' aids if requd, and trot for a few minutes if necessary to chill her out. then ask for walk. ask for sideways, changes of direction, transitions, keep her thinking, keep her guessing. if she's not likely to be daft about it, walk and trot her over the odd pole, that sort of thing.
i think you're doing the right think phasing out the speedibeet and going on to just chaff. tbh just balancer/vits and hay would probably do.
you could ask former rider (= owner?) to ride her, see how she goes then?
 
S - sorry to hear that hun. It's a bu&&er :(. I'm going to ask the vet - she'll probably be keen to hear how the cutting out of the Speedibeet goes before she starts investigations :).

I could understand the getting stressy re. work if she had been in regular work, but she's been out of it for nearly a year. Then again, maybe she's the sort that when she is started again one has to keep at it.... Bl00dy snow! :(
 
Actually just had another thought....generally Dolly gets away with being a complete twit with me as when jumping or in the ring she is an absolute dinger and will do anything for me. She gets all wound up, acts the fool and I tend to just sit there and let. Not ideal I know but she will never be sold and she has taught me so much so she gets away with murder. Anywho point of my post is that is there a chance her owner let her do the same and no she is objecting to D1 trying to ride her? Re: the girthing it would be worth getting that checked although mine also does that always has, always will. does it when rugging aswell and when clipping or brushing her belly. Just super sensitive down there
 
K - that's what we've been doing. She can be okay in walk, but then into trot and it's into canter, spinning, the sideways canter, the leaps. D1 weighs about eight stone, so it's not a too-heavy-rider issue and she rides light. If she takes up the contact then they're off at a great rate of knots. Any suggestion of leg yield and GM goes against the leg, again at a great rate of knots.

D1 has ridden her bareback and she was slightly less whappy, but that's about the time the cantering sideways started. We're trying to think back and we think that's when the Speedibeet was started.

Maybe we have two issues here. Possibly a tender back - so when the lady gets to us hopefully that will solve that isseue, and possibly and intolerance to the Speedibeet.

Therefore, fading out the Speedibeet, the introduction of chaff; back lady out soonest (she's very good); free schooling, including over some small jumps; and D1 playing with her more, including riding bareback; vet to scope for ulcers and consider ovaries/KS.

Owner is our instructor and will be out to us tomorrow. Fingers crossed the school is useable!

Thank you :D
 
amage said:
Actually just had another thought....generally Dolly gets away with being a complete twit with me as when jumping or in the ring she is an absolute dinger and will do anything for me. She gets all wound up, acts the fool and I tend to just sit there and let. Not ideal I know but she will never be sold and she has taught me so much so she gets away with murder. Anywho point of my post is that is there a chance her owner let her do the same and no she is objecting to D1 trying to ride her? Re: the girthing it would be worth getting that checked although mine also does that always has, always will. does it when rugging aswell and when clipping or brushing her belly. Just super sensitive down there
Click to expand...

Hm. This behaviour is getting worse, hence the query as I would have expected it to either stay the same, or be getting slightly better now she's being worked more frequently.

She's fine to brush her tummy, although sometimes pulls a face; fine to rug; fine with feet (to pick out and for the farrier).

As to her owner, no, GM would not be allowed to be a raving twit :). Allowed some peronsality yes, but twit, no :)

Oh can't wait for the back lady to come now!
 
OneInAMillion said:
What about if you lunge her or send her off loose around the school...How does she react?
Click to expand...

Initially she was good to lunge. The last lunge session two weeks ago and she would not stop. D1 is used to lunging awkward bu&&ers, but GM just kept cantering round and round until the circle was so small D1 stopped her by getting her bridle. She had a saddle on that day and the other times did not, but given the time scale, if it's the Speedibeet, then that's not telling anything.

Haven't free schooled her yet. It is now in the plans!
 
MrsMozart said:
Initially she was good to lunge. The last lunge session two weeks ago and she would not stop. D1 is used to lunging awkward bu&&ers, but GM just kept cantering round and round until the circle was so small D1 stopped her by getting her bridle. She had a saddle on that day and the other times did not, but given the time scale, if it's the Speedibeet, then that's not telling anything.

Haven't free schooled her yet. It is now in the plans!
Click to expand...


Oh durr. You wrote that in your OP, sorry! :rolleyes: so so blonde ;)

will be interesting to see what she is like free schooling...will you let us know?! I really hope the situation resolves itself as she sounds like she could be a cracker :)
 
Do not fret :D. I have those moments all the time.... and I'm auburn (or was, before the grey not so much as crept in but rampaged. Ah well :cool::D).


Yes, I'll definitely let you know :D. She really is a cracking horse. She and D1 seem to have a bond already, though not yet strong; hopefully that will come with time and effort on D1's part :) :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top