RE: Suspected Navicular case. Received most devastating news, need honest opinions.

[Maesfen]

Oh hell, that's awful! Hope you get your money back for that 'vetting' and the treatment ever since at the very least as it shouldn't have been necessary if the vetting had been done properly in the first place.
You could also inform the veterinary body over there and complain about it because that so should not happen; if they hadn't a qualified vet available for you they should have said so and you could have found someone else.

 

[CVSHotShot]

The man on the phone also suggested that I my vet is going to have a great deal of trouble proving to a court of law that these injuries were present at the time of the vetting and did not occur after I bought her. Does anybody have any views on this?

 

[Tammytoo]

So, so sorry to hear about your mare. It does sound pretty devastating, but you need time to digest the vet findings. At the moment I think that keeping her painfree for a while before PTS seems the kindest thing.

Are you a member of the BHS? They have a legal helpline who could advise you on your rights and what action to take. There are also specialist equine legal firms. Giving them a ring and I'm sure they could tell you if you have a claim.

 

[putasocinit]

Agree with cptrayes, its kinder.

 

[Luci07]

The man on the phone also suggested that I my vet is going to have a great deal of trouble proving to a court of law that these injuries were present at the time of the vetting and did not occur after I bought her. Does anybody have any views on this?

Ummm...he would say that. It's his practise that is being called into question. And appreciate you are in Ireland but there is no such thing as someone qualified to check hearts etc but not a full vetting. Unless you have some thing different from England? Also, your comments from your vet would show that these issues have been apparent for a long time, to counter that I wonder how much would have been shown during a 5* vetting? perhaps someone else could give you a better steer on this than me..I would gather all the points raised on here, wrote them down and then go through them with your vet. I would also start by asking on here if anyone has any experience with the cover up over the vetting. Very sorry to hear how bad your mare is.

 

[criso]

The man on the phone also suggested that I my vet is going to have a great deal of trouble proving to a court of law that these injuries were present at the time of the vetting and did not occur after I bought her. Does anybody have any views on this?

Strikes me that they are trying to have it both ways. If they didn't do a thorough examination of the horse, how do they know what would and wouldn't show up.

What does the receipt say you paid for?
Do you have anything from the seller telling you she passed?

Even in a private sale, if the seller said she passed a vetting and that vetting was never done, then it sounds like she was deliberately trying to mislead you.

 

[CVSHotShot]

And appreciate you are in Ireland but there is no such thing as someone qualified to check hearts etc but not a full vetting.

I wish I had recorded the call TBH, maybe these rules are different in the south of Ireland? Or perhaps he meant that that particular practice only allowed their senior vets to carry out vettings for purchase?

On my receipt is says that it was for a 'Vetting of an 8yo bay mare'
It also states on the receipt the total was either 150 or 180 euro (hard to make out) but on the vets computer record it says that I was only charged 68 :S

Beginning to look very suspicious!

 

[cptrayes]

The man on the phone also suggested that I my vet is going to have a great deal of trouble proving to a court of law that these injuries were present at the time of the vetting and did not occur after I bought her. Does anybody have any views on this?

If no vetting was done and you were told by the seller that it was, then in this country that is fraud and it is therefore for them to prove that the horse was sound to 5* vetting stage when they sold it, as they told you it was. They cannot do that and in court in this country, if you can prove that you were told that a 5* vetting had been done, you would most likely win your case for the value of the mare.

I think your fist port of call should possibly be against the man who did the vetting, if he was a student vet, via his governing body.

You have been conned into buying an unsound horse, unfortunately, but it does not seem likely that you can afford to sue the vendor unless you have a small claims court in Ireland, in which case I would raise the paperwork immediately.

 

[Wagtail]

Regarding the 'injuries', all of the listed problems would have been present for well in excess of 3 months. The bone chips in the stifles for example will likely be due to OCD, and this is a young horse's disease and will have been present for years. Usually you can tell how long they have been present by their shape (if they have rounded edges rather than sharp edges, they tend to be older). Boney changes in the pedal bones are the result of chronic laminitis, not something that has appeared over the last three months, as are changes due to navicular syndrome.

I am so sorry OP, this must be devastating for you. I cannot say what I would do in your shoes as it all depends on just how bad the xrays are.

 

[CBFan]

How utterly awful this situation is turning out to be...

The long and the short of it is that you paid for a vetting that never actually happened... this means you were sold the horse fraudulently... It goes without saying that these conditions are longastanding issues.

ODC usually occurs as a horse is growing, the leisions admitedly may not cause the horse a problem when it is at rest but the minute it starts reguar, harder work, it flairs up.

Navicular is a degenenerative condition which unless steps are taken to remedy the feet, will only get worse...

The damage to the pedal bone suggests a logstanding problem too.

I would try and get a ful and detailed report from your vet as to the extent of these conditions and try and proceed with a claim a) against the vendor and b) against the veterinary practice employed to do the vetting. I am SURE you have a case...

 

[wench]

I would imagine the Irish vet body is pretty much run as the rcvs here.

I know the professional body for my job is pretty much back to back with the body in uk

 

[meandmyself]

OP if she were mine I'd get an immediate referral for a second opinion from a specialist centre such as Liverpool Uni. The reason I say this is that to my mind your vets have been using emotive language that won't have helped the situation. What do they mean long term bute usage will rot the horse's stomach? No it won't. Correctly fed it may eventually cause liver problems after years of high dosage but rot the stomach? That's drivel and even if it had some basis in fact, that's not a clinical way to explain things. Get a 2nd opinion before you make your decision. Good luck x

I wonder if the vet means it will cause an ulcer?

So sorry OP. You're in a tough spot.

 

[CVSHotShot]

Spoke to my vet again this morning. He is typing a written report up for me with his findings so I will repost them here when I receive them.
Thank-you for the recent replies x

 

[Gingerwitch]

Poor you - poor mare.

Horses on long term pain killers can develop ulcers and it can also cause problems to the liver and kidney's.

apart from that - i wont advise as its easy for someone not involved to say pts or treat.

I would sit down with someone you trust, and face to face go for a meeting with your vet - even an unhorsey mum, dad or partner - sometimes these are the best as they are quite black and white with the questioning and will often ask questions that are very basic - but need clarifications of.

Good luck - keep your chin up

 

[Pale Rider]

What a mess, I am really sorry for you.

Personally, I would take the view that you are where you are and focus on the mare, rather than trying to build a case against vets or past owners.

I don't think it would cost that much to give her 6 months on a barefoot regime and see if there is any improvement.

I know the feet look a real mess but so do lots of lamanitics and it is possible to get them back.

Like everyone else here I've not seen your horse, but with boots and pads, controlled pain relief and a decent barefoot regime, you may get a real improvement.

Good luck anyway.

 

[CVSHotShot]

Okay, so written vet report states:

Lame left front, right front & right hind, blocks partially to foot, fetlock & knee in front as well as right hind hock & stifle. Very poor foot conformation with obvious signs of laminitis changes over the pedal bone , also interphallangeal degenerative joint disease (DJD) and navicular bone remodelling. Some DJD over fetlock and knee. DJD intertarsal joints and remodelling lateral condyle of stifle joint.
Very poor prognosis for full athletic potential. Advice - Orthopaedic shoeing and rest with Anti-inflamitory drugs. Reassess in 3 weeks & decided whether it is feasible to medicate affected joints once foot balance has been achieved.

x

 

[Pale Rider]

Orthopedic shoes is the last thing she needs, I'd put her to sleep now rather than go down this road.

 

[CVSHotShot]

I guess what I really need is everything put into lay mans terms for me to understand the severity of it all. From what I have researched online I am getting really mixed views. Are there any vets on the forum? x

 

[cptrayes]

I am not a vet but I have a lot of experience and I don't hold back when I think strong advice is needed. My translation for you follows.

Okay, so written vet report states:

Lame left front, right front & right hind,

She is lame in three legs.

blocks partially to foot, fetlock & knee in front as well as right hind hock & stifle.

The lameness is originating from multiple points in the leg. The foot and the fetlock and the knee in both front legs. The hock and the stifle in the hind leg.

This is VERY BAD NEWS

Very poor foot conformation with obvious signs of laminitis changes over the pedal bone , also interphallangeal degenerative joint disease (DJD) and navicular bone remodelling.

She has had laminitis in the past which has been so severe as to cause remodelling of the pedal bone. She has an arthritis type change to the joints in her feet and the navicular bone is also damaged (this last bit is not terribly important, but the rest is, very)

Some DJD over fetlock and knee.

She has arthritic type changes to her fetlocks and her knees in both front feet. This is very, very bad news put together with the above.

DJD intertarsal joints and remodelling lateral condyle of stifle joint.

She has spavins/arthritis type changes in the hock of one leg. This is bad enough, but she also has bone changes in the stifle. This joint is the human knee, terribly complex and very, very difficult to fix once it has gone wrong. This one in itself is a death sentence to most horses.

Very poor prognosis for full athletic potential.

She is not going to return to proper work, ever.

Advice - Orthopaedic shoeing and rest with Anti-inflamitory drugs. Reassess in 3 weeks & decided whether it is feasible to medicate affected joints once foot balance has been achieved.

There is no real hope for this horse but give me a lot more money and I'll spend it for you.


I am so, so sorry but there is no future for your mare and I think that she should be put down very soon for the sake of both of you.

My thoughts are with you.

 

[CVSHotShot]

cptrayes, Thanks so much for this translation, It has made my decision a whole lot easier. I would never sentence her to a lifetime of pain and misery just because I would prefer her to stay here with me. In our 7 short months together she has looked after me well & now it is only fair that I look after her best interests x

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm so sorry CVSHotShot.

 

[mightymammoth]

cptrayes, Thanks so much for this translation, It has made my decision a whole lot easier. I would never sentence her to a lifetime of pain and misery just because I would prefer her to stay here with me. In our 7 short months together she has looked after me well & now it is only fair that I look after her best interests x

so sad you are both having to go through this, I can't imagine how you feel. At least she is with you. You clearly love her very much and are making some very brave and hard decisions.

 

[cptrayes]

My heart goes out to you CV, you have been so badly done to by the people who sold you your mare, and so has she. She is lucky that you now have her best interests at heart. I'll be thinking of you.

 

[Pale Rider]

Cptrayes translation of your vets report is certainly bleak, but, not having seen the horse, not actually being a vet, her opinion should be weighed in the balance with all the other factors surrounding this horse.

I'm keen that people should face the responsibility of doing the right thing for animals in their care, and not prolong a situation if its not in the animals best interest and only that of a vet and the owner.

I'm sure whatever you decide will be ok, she's luck to be with you.

 

[Wagtail]

I have to agree with Cptrayes. Mainly due to the sheer number of problems your horse has. But I want to make a point about prognosis. My mare was given a very poor prognosis for returning to athletic soundness or even being paddock sound after she sustained a catastrophic shoulder injury. Three years later she is back to being ridden. Unfortunately we had a set back because she got laminitis, but she's back again now. Before the lami se was performing at walk and trot movements such as half pass, walk piroettes etc and about to start canter work. So the vets are not always right. However, she had only one injury, which thankfully hadn't affected other parts of her body. My boy on the other hand has multiple issues, and despite a hock operation and kissing spines operation, I have had to retire him. Out of everything, the thing that concerns me most about your mare is the pedal bone changes. Foot pain is very painful. I am so sorry. Personally, I would chat to the vet to find out how much pain she is in, and if it's a lot then PTS, if she is comfortable, then I would probably give it a go trying to sort her feet out and see what affect this has, but this depends on how bad the remodeling of the pedal bone is.

 

[dingle12]

Im sorry to see you have been done over, and if it was one leg that had the problem fair enough give it a go but three I would pts she will be out of pain and you know where she is. Such a sad situation I would also be taking action with the vet practice that was supposed to be doing the vetting x

 

[cptrayes]

I absolutely agree with Wagtail on the prognosis comment. I am the first to rubbish vets writing off horses unnecessarily. Unfortunately, with that report, I would not hesitate, myself, to accept that prognosis as probably optimistic, (as Wagtail does too). What we are really saying is in this case, it's right, but it doesn't mean that it always is, especially with foot lamenesses.

 

[applecart14]

So sorry OP. I have followed your post over the last few days. x

 

[CVSHotShot]

Just had an email back from rockley farm, I think the jist of their opinion is that they cannot give a definate answer because they have not spoken to my vet but they do not want to give me false hope about her future Because it concerns them that the blocks have not left her fully sound
Thank you all for your kind words and advice. I guess my next dilemma is about ways and means of having her PTS & disposal (for want of a better word) I have read the section already on the forum & found it quite helpful, but I suppose reading it and having it done are very different. This will be the first time I have had any animal PTS. Has anybody yet found a way of doing it so that it is least distressing for horse & owner? x

 

[wench]

My choice would always be the hunt/knackerman.