Re Training Ex Racers, Need an action plan!

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Flax

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Does anyone have experience in re training ex racers?

I have bought a lovely ex racer mare, we have just been going out hacking and having some chill time :)

She has been so good, calm, friendly - just lovely, so except for a couple of nappy moments and trotting around the school like a plank of wood all is good:)

I need to start schooling her now, she does come down onto the bit but only for a short while then she starts looking around her, not concentrating and sticking her nose out :rolleyes:

She tends to lean on the bit, take hold and just generally trot around having a nice time but ignoring her rider :rolleyes:

I haven't put any pressure on her so far but we need to crack on now, I will be having lessons once a week (more if I can afford it) so how would you cope with the leaning & nose poking? when she leans/loses concentration what should I do? just keep asking her gently to come down keeping my legs on?

She came from the racing yard in a loose ring waterford, I have her now in a full cheek (fulmer) snaffle with a lozenge, she is not hard to stop, she just leans and ignores you :) any advice on which bit would be best for her?

Any advice and tips for schooling will be appreciated please? :)
 
You may find it easier to start her schooling education when out hacking.

She will be more forward, and therefore easier to soften into your hand. Much of the initial flexing work can also be done then too. Shoulder in, shoulder fore, leg yielding etc.
 
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Keep her interested, they are the worst for loosing their concentration. Figure of eights, serpentines, 20m circles and LOADS of transitions.

Major was the same when i first started his re-schooling, his idea of working well was just to lean on the bit and have a jolly good trot round. Keep your hands up, inside leg on and work on a circle. Make sure you keep the outside hand dead still and ask with the inside hand at first, the key is reward as soon as she softens reward by taking the pressure off and making it easy. Major would maintain his outline if i dropped the inside rein all together now and works solely into the outside rein once working well.

It's taken me a good few months to achieve anything with him, they have a tendancy to lean and work down hill i find, where as now he is the opposite. I think the key is to get the trot active but not fast. Hope that helps a bit!
 
Thanks for the replies :)

Amymay - I do try when we are hacking, she is a lot more active but the nose poking & leaning is worse, she is so intersted in everything around her, she strides out (leaves the others behind!) but I just cannot keep a constent 'head down' contact, she leans so hard she makes my arms ache, if I let her have her head, she is fine and just marches out, looking around her :)

Thanks for the tips girlracer, I have been told to keep my hands down, by the side of the saddle, but I will be trying 'hands higher' later today :)
 
Transitions and changes of direction are absolutely key.
Loads of variation, and not asking for her to round too much at first, more focus on getting a more long, low and relaxed outline. As someone has said, trotting poles and schooling when out hacking are a good place to start.

Remember she won't have the right muscle to be able to "go on the bit" properly yet. It will take time so leaning and nose poking out is the norm at this stage of training.
 
but I just cannot keep a constent 'head down' contact,
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That is not your aim at this point. Your aim at this point is to encourage her to soften and lower her head, not maintain and 'on the bit' outline.
 
also it may be that the waterford wa sused not because he was stong but because he leans and it stops them from grabbing it... just a thought...
with rosc we did lots of bending: coiling in from a 20m circle and then pushing(kind of leg yielding) back out again and 10m circles reclining to the track bending helpd them to learn how to carry themselves nicer, just what we found anyways...
good luck : )
 
Hands up.

At this point forget about where her head is it will come naturally when she starts to work across her back, and flex nicely, work on circles and and lots of transitions, she will slowly soften then to the hand.
Everyone is too quick to have the head carriage.
She can't lean on your hands if you don't provide her with the tools to lean on them. Having your hands down will not help.
Do lots of work using your seat and weight to slow her up and push her on again, transitons within paces will lighten her in the hand and have her listening to the shift in your weight. Might have to go over the top to start with but when she starts to understand she will listen to the slightest movement. Lots of work out hacking, short periods in the school after coming back from a hack to practice the moves you did out. Get something good praise and finish for the day.
Remember she is going to be using muscles she has not used in this way before so will get tired and lose concentration quickly. Better to do a short good session rather than a long session and tire her out.
 
I found lunging with a pessoa or chambon very beneficial for my boys only for very short periods of time at first, as it helps them learn what its all about and begins to build the muscle with no rider. In the beginning I was lunging twice a week as it improved there very often flat out, can't turn, canter no end!! I then progressed onto once a week when we were more established.

You want to keep things interesting and not allow them to lean on your hands as this is what they know from racing, subtle half halts with leg on, circles, serpentines, halt to trot, figure or eights etc not allowing her to simply lean. If she was ridden in a waterfood all the time whilst in race work it will have made your life harder, I only used to use mine sparingly and we were never allowed to use strong bits when riding out and work riding racehorses, only snaffles. Good luck racehorses can be so rewarding, and I am sure we will be seeing that you have won your first dressage soon :)
 
Flax said:
Thanks for the tips girlracer, I have been told to keep my hands down, by the side of the saddle, but I will be trying 'hands higher' later today :)
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Lift your hands up with good bend in the elbow but keep your upper body super soft and relaxed. Concentrate on getting her working through initially, once you achieve that the head carriage will come along naturally. They aren't always easy but trust me when it comes together it's so rewarding :)

Lessons will really help to!
 
Thanks everyone :)

I have lots of good advice and tips from here to be going forward.

I will be trying them all out over the next few months, I'm looking forward to it :)
 
In a racing yard she would be in a plain snaffle with big rings.
I don't like the fulmer personally as I have never found a difficult horse that it fits!
I start off with a Neu schule starter or a happy mouth, and I move on to a Myler comfort, this one very good for lifting the shoulder and education the mouth.
I suspect you have always ridden horses and ponies schooled the standard way, ie to accept the bit and build the topline. Well she has been ridden with almost no contact in the BHS sense, and you think may be expecting too much too soon, crack on yes but at her pace which is probably months not a few weeks, all her muscles and her training has been completely different, so you need to chill out, hack out with a light contact to prevent accidents, but use light contact and little massages on the reins for short periods only. Then let reins go loose so she can stretch stiff muscles, rub her neck when she does what you want.
Just imagine you had trained to run 100 metres every day for four years and now someone wants you to run a marathon, tomorrow, most of us wold find it difficult mentally and physically.
An experienced instructor will help, the kind that have been there and done it rather than the young BHSAI type who has only ridden school ponies.
 
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Echo Native Eventer and Mrs D123. When I start a horse that is fresh off the track I begin by lungeing and hacking. The first couple of times I lunge with no tack, just going through the commands to try to suss out what they understand. Then I use a pessoa or more usually a de gouge for a couple of weeks to start to build up the correct muscles. I may also have a session with side reins with a saddle just to get them used to a 'contact'. But most of my work is done ridden (after the 2 - 3 weeks lungeing and hacking). The most important thing when teaching an unschooled horse (or indeed a schooled one) is to learn to release any pressure immediately they soften, but to be ready and anticipate when they are about to throw their head up or fall on the forehand and stop it BEFORE it happens. It is something that cannot be easily described. It has to be learned on board the horse.

Regarding bits, you are right to remove the waterford. It has no place in schooling horses. I too dislike the fulmer. I also dislike single jointed bits that are not shaped to avoid hitting the roof of the horse's mouth. The Nue schuell (sp) Anky bit is an excellent single jointed bit which s designed not to hurt the roof of the mouth. I have not found a horse yet that does not go really well in it. I also like the Sprenger kk ultra and the french link loose ring snaffle. For horses that lean on the bit, avoid any fixed ring bits. Always go for loose rings. Another thing I avoid is a flash noseband. If a horse is comfortable in its bit, it will not open its mouth unless it wants to tank off with you.
 
Hey! I'm currently re-schooling my ex-racer!
i had the exact same problem, he'd lean, run in trot, rear up, and basicly not listen to anything i was asking of him.
I did lots of lunging with him at when i first got him, and took around 3 weeks for him to even start listening to me in the school.

Just some advice that really worked for me, might help you out!

Warm her up on a loose rein for around 25-30 minutes, lots of walk trot transitions and change of rein to keep interested, then once you think they're listening i used to do a loose canter around the school on each rein once or twice then back to walk trot. Once you think you've engaged her attention enough, ask her to halt and simply ask her to drop her head - she might not do this straight away.
Then walk around the school, keeping the contact, fix your outside rein, lower your inside, keep elbows bent and close to you. As your walking around the school, say at each corner do very little circles with lots of inside rein, although leg yield her out. Pop in a few halts here and there and keep asking for her to drop, do the same on the other rein. Once she's grasping it go onto a 20m circle, still doing little circles here and there, throw in some trot work and keep the contact. If she wasn't to drop her head low then allow her to do it from your elbows, this will keep you upright and in the correct position still. Every time she accepts the contact tell her she's a good girl, when she doesn't and she wants to lean just ride her through it and preserver, eventually she would of had enough and realise your the boss! It may take a few days of continuous schooling, maybe weeks but it will pay off, just be very patient and rewarding with her. She may over bend at the beginning but she'll grow out of this once she understands what your asking.
Obviously once shes working well and your pleased with the way shes working you can try alsorts of new exercises out. Why not try to music? She might find it calming.

Anyway sorry for the essay but my boy was very difficult a couple months ago, i felt like giving up. But i just preservered through it with lots of patience and now he works super in walk and trot after a good warm up. Just working on his canter now and then jumpies!

I hope this helps along with the other advice! Any more info i'l be happy to help just PM me. Good luck and dont forget to post some pictures of her :D
 
MrsD123 said:
An experienced instructor will help, the kind that have been there and done it rather than the young BHSAI type who has only ridden school ponies.
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Careful, some of us young BHSAI types have never worked with riding school ponies and have been there and done it, worked in comp yards and race yards etc..... Nothing wrong with having a lesson with us.
 
Thanks again, I will have a look at the bits you have mentioned, I do have a couple of Nuschule bits but they will be too big for her, she has a tiny mouth, I have her in a 5" bit atm, my other horses are 5.75" and 6"!

I am taking notes from everyone that has given me advice, it is all really great stuff thank you, I will be back soon with a progress update :)
 
Wagtail said:
Oh sorry, I forgot to ask about this ^^^ I do have her in a flash (although I hate using it) because when I do ask for her for contact sometimes she sticks her nose out and opens her mouth ... like she is yawning :o she only does it when I ask her to do something (and not all the time!) I also think she is trying to get her tongue over the bit ..... any ideas what I should try please?
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no ideas but i am reading this post with interest!! I have got an ex racer i am bringing back into work. he has pretty much had a year of hacking and some ground work. I am basically lunging him twice a week and riding twice a week at present. His attention span is worse than a gnats!! He also does the open mouth yawny thing whilst throwing his head up vertically after doing a few strides of working in an outline!! So will be interested on views for bits. Btw mine is in a NS team up bit which he seems to like and no longer tries to put his tongue over the bit, i have a flash on him but loose as a preventative measure if he does try to get his tongue out the side of his mouth like a freak!
 
Flax said:
Oh sorry, I forgot to ask about this ^^^ I do have her in a flash (although I hate using it) because when I do ask for her for contact sometimes she sticks her nose out and opens her mouth ... like she is yawning :o she only does it when I ask her to do something (and not all the time!) I also think she is trying to get her tongue over the bit ..... any ideas what I should try please?
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Then the bit is hurting her. If she is in a normal single jointed fulmer, then every time you take up the contact, her tongue will be squeezed and the roof of her mouth poked. The only way for her to avoid the pain is to open her mouth and poke her nose or pull downwards (altering the angle of the bit so it doesn't hit the sensitive roof ofher mouth.) By adding a flash you are just increasing the pain. Sorry to be so blunt, but a flash turns a normal snaffle into a torture device. Horses only put the tongue over the bit to relieve the pain.
 
dizzydancer said:
no ideas but i am reading this post with interest!! I have got an ex racer i am bringing back into work. he has pretty much had a year of hacking and some ground work. I am basically lunging him twice a week and riding twice a week at present. His attention span is worse than a gnats!! He also does the open mouth yawny thing whilst throwing his head up vertically after doing a few strides of working in an outline!! So will be interested on views for bits. Btw mine is in a NS team up bit which he:)seems to like and no longer tries to put his tongue over the bit, i have a flash on him but loose as a preventative measure if he does try to get his tongue out the side of his mouth like a freak!
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I'm afraid that tongue poking is also a sign of pain caused by the bit. I would keep trying new bits until you get one that he does not evade. It took me two whole years with one horse. I had to ride her in a hackamore until I found a bit she was happy with. The NS team up bit suits may horses and is a kind bit, but I'm afraid that the lozenge does not suit all horses and can cause some to poke their tongues out the side to avoid the pessure from the lozenge. I would try a NS anky dressage snaffle.
 
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Wagtail said:
Then the bit is hurting her. If she is in a normal single jointed fulmer, then every time you take up the contact, her tongue will be squeezed and the roof of her mouth poked. The only way for her to avoid the pain is to open her mouth and poke her nose or pull downwards (altering the angle of the bit so it doesn't hit the sensitive roof ofher mouth.) By adding a flash you are just increasing the pain. Sorry to be so blunt, but a flash turns a normal snaffle into a torture device. Horses only put the tongue over the bit to relieve the pain.
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No, that's great info, I had not thought about it in that way, I have always been really soft with her mouth (it has a lozenge - not a nutcracker action one) but if it's hurting her I will change it straight away .....

I will phone Nuschule (or however you spell it!) and ask their advice, I will also ask my instuctor, until then I will pop her straight rubber snaffle I have and just take it easy :)
 
Flax said:
No, that's great info, I had not thought about it in that way, I have always been really soft with her mouth (it has a lozenge - not a nutcracker action one) but if it's hurting her I will change it straight away .....

I will phone Nuschule (or however you spell it!) and ask their advice, I will also ask my instuctor, until then I will pop her straight rubber snaffle I have and just take it easy :)
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http://www.dressagedeluxe.co.uk/Shop.asp?viewmode=ViewProduct&productid=1004

This bit, although single jointed, is curved to avoid pinching the tongue and hitting the roof of the mouth.
 
I now feel so spoilt in that the 2 racehorses I have brought home from work were already very well grounded in basic schooling and could work away on the bit nicely. My new lad, although he came from a flat yard that doesn't do any schooling, works in a natural outline that needs very little tweeking! We shall see how that turns out when we start cantering but in walk and trot he is easy peasy.
 
They sound really nice, EKW. I have retrained many ex race horses over the years. Some are easy peasy, others are not so easy. Usually I find the younger ones that have done little or no racing the easiest. The most difficult one I retrained was an 11 year old steeple chaser. He had no mouth left! Having said that, he did very well in his dressage in the end. He had an unusually high stepping action which was very eye catching.
 
One of mine came to me as an 11yo Chaser but I had ridden him for 4 years in work and he did regular flatwork with me either in the school or out on hacks. He also did a fair bit in France and at Henrietta Knights. My other lad I worked in racing for a year and he had to be taught from scratch as he had only ever known go fast fast fast so he also spent time in the school and out hacking working nicely like a show horse - I had an eye to take them both home when their racing careers had finished so why make my own life harder at home if I don't have to :D

The worst ones I find to school are the 4 or 5yo flat horses that we get as they have spent 2 or 3 years with their heads higher zooming about. They tend to be more set in their ways. Every horse is different and have their own way of doing things. You just need to find the right buttons to press.
 
I'll be using some of the great advise from you guys too, i have a nice boy coming soon already working well in walk and trot but needs some balance and bending work doing.
I'm in no great rush with him so happy to take the nice and steady approch, he can canter but thinks its fun time and gets very excited.
Dont think he's to keen on the loose ring frence link bit he's in as seem to play to much with it and throws his head in the air, other than that and with reading this thread i now have a better plan in place.
 
I can't tell you what a great schooling session we had this evening :D

I took as much of the great advice that I could remember from here and we rode walk & trot (mainly walk with lots of halts) for 20 mins or so, she was FAB! we did a bit of leg yielding in and out on circles for a few mins at a time, she wanted to 'poke' her nose out, but I just kept asking with my hands and legs, I used my body as much as I could, it really worked!

I am on such a high ..... she was much more responsive and really stretched down when I asked, it didn't last for long so I just kept asking & giving her lots of praise and pats when she did what I asked.

She stretched down again and again .... she was so lovely .... I'm just so happy with her!

Thank you everyone, I will get pics next time ... you will be proud of us :)
 
Flax said:
I can't tell you what a great schooling session we had this evening :D

I took as much of the great advice that I could remember from here and we rode walk & trot (mainly walk with lots of halts) for 20 mins or so, she was FAB! we did a bit of leg yielding in and out on circles for a few mins at a time, she wanted to 'poke' her nose out, but I just kept asking with my hands and legs, I used my body as much as I could, it really worked!

I am on such a high ..... she was much more responsive and really stretched down when I asked, it didn't last for long so I just kept asking & giving her lots of praise and pats when she did what I asked.

She stretched down again and again .... she was so lovely .... I'm just so happy with her!

Thank you everyone, I will get pics next time ... you will be proud of us :)
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We really need a 'like' button :D
 
First off congratulations on a sensible choice (OK I'm biased, I've had 7 ex-racers and still have 6 of them, the 7th is only no longer with us as his time had come due to cancer). They're quite possibly the most intelligent, mentally unstable, stubborn, determined, infuriating, graceful and downright angelic horses I've ever come across! In terms of leaning/poking nose in strange directions I just ride in a simple loose ring snaffle and if I feel them leaning on my hands rather than giving the rein away completely (I tried that - horse decided if I wouldn't hold him up he wouldn't do it either and kneed himself in the nose!) I keep hold of the contact but slide my hand forward (as if sliding your hand up the mane) so it changes the feel and gives them something to concentrate on. I can honestly say I never completely take my leg off (when I do we end to go backwards, often at speed) but always keep it just resting lightly on their sides and just use a slightly stronger aid to move up a pace/change direction. Also tend to do lots and lots and lots and lots (!) of different things - if we do a 20m circle more than twice without changing something every single one of them tends to get into the "I now know exactly what we're doing, can do it with my eyes closed and will therefore concentrate on the big horse eating monster in the tree I have passed at least a dozen times!" mode. So lots of transitions, changes of reins, schooling movements such as circles, serpentines, figure of 8 etc... and with the more capable ones leg yielding, turns on the forehand and haunches etc... Good luck & enjoy every minute!
 
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