Reaction to L4 vaccines

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southerncomfort

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Our little JRT was vaccinated day before yesterday with Versican Plus (L4).

She's been quiet ever since but she's just been sitting on my lap and I can feel that her kidneys are enlarged.

I've just googled the above vaccine and I'm horrified at what I've read! The L4 refers to a vaccine against leptospirosis and has been linked to numerous deaths. Many accounts of dogs going in to kidney failure, cardiac arrest, anaphylaxis etc.

Their have been calls for it to be withdrawn due to the large number of adverse reactions.

Little JRT is ok in herself, eating well, still telling the postman off etc but quieter than usual and wanting cuddles and looks a little stiff.

Anyone else's dog have a reaction to an L4 vaccine? Were they ok?
 
Tawny has been off colour the last two years and I won't have it done any more, I have decided. I am generally pro vaccine and the other dogs are fine with it, so they can keep going. Last year she was off colour for aabout a week, this year she was off colour and all her coat stood on end for several days, it was worrying.
 
You need to report it to the vet. If reactions arent reported then manufacturers cant do anything about it. They will cover the cost of your vet visit and any treatment if its caused by a vaccine. Saying that mine dont get lepto. It was a hard decision but I weighed up the pros and cons and decided against it. One of mine reacts badly to vaccines generally so its not worth the risk for me.
 
I'll call the vets in the morning and report it and if I can still feel her kidneys she'll be going straight in. If I thought she was in danger she'd be at the vets now but she's eating ok and urinating fine.

She's actually perked up now and helped me round up the ponies and bring them in this evening so I'm as sure as I can be that it was a reaction to the vaccine.

I won't let her have that vaccine again that's for sure!
 
southerncomfort said:
I'll call the vets in the morning and report it and if I can still feel her kidneys she'll be going straight in. If I thought she was in danger she'd be at the vets now but she's eating ok and urinating fine.

She's actually perked up now and helped me round up the ponies and bring them in this evening so I'm as sure as I can be that it was a reaction to the vaccine.

I won't let her have that vaccine again that's for sure!
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How can you feel her kidneys? Not being picky, but interested.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
call your vet rather than googling-get her checked out if needs be. I've personally not had a problem with any of mine but they are all individuals.
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I did speak to the vet about it at length, after last year, and he said it was probably just unconnected. As she wasn't really ill, just not well, I didn't think so much about it once she perked up. I did speak to him again, this year, prior to the jab, and he said it was nothing to worry about. She was really odd this time though, her coat was proper stary. I will ask for L2 next year, and try that.
 
I was knocked out for a couple of days by the meningitis vaccine I had to get as a student.
No reaction to the lepto vacc, but one of mine doesn't get on with spot-on treatments. Mine travel a lot and take part in competition so things like vaccs and parasite treatments are not optional.
However I *always* rest my dogs for a day after their vaccinations.
 
If you genuinely think her kidneys are enlarged and shes having a reaction to the vaccine why in gods name havent you brought her back to the vet???

24 hours of lethargy is relatively normal after a vaccination as they stimulate an immune system responce, but any excessive changes should be investigated and reported. The vet cannot file a detailed report without examining the dog.

Its actually very easy to feel the kidneys in puppies and cats compared to adults dogs when they are relaxed.
 
Ours have never had a reaction to Lepto 4. Jake had his first when he was 11 years old as that is when my vet changed from Lepto 2. We rested him for 24 hours but he was as right as rain during that period. He has just been revaccinated, and despite having emergency surgery in late April, to remove his spleen, he showed no ill effects after this injection either. We intended to rest him for 48 hours as a precaution this time due to his age and his spleenless state (!) but he was having none of it. Peril too has had Lepto 4 and she too was given a rest day afterwards but showed no side effects. I'd be taking any vet with a vaccination reaction straight back to the vets, because, equally, there could be something else going on, and it would be wise to get that checked out. 🐾
 
My dogs have lepto 4 and have never had a problem. Like one or two others on here I always rest for at least 24 hours after the jab, I was amazed a couple of years ago when someone at our agility training turned up straight from their dog having its booster, luckily the trainer told them it wasn't a good idea to train. I have had a dog react to a booster many years ago (pre lept 4), she was straight back to the vets and was very poorly for a while, and the decision was made not to give her any further vaccs throughout her life.
 
Clodagh said:
I did speak to the vet about it at length, after last year, and he said it was probably just unconnected. As she wasn't really ill, just not well, I didn't think so much about it once she perked up. I did speak to him again, this year, prior to the jab, and he said it was nothing to worry about. She was really odd this time though, her coat was proper stary. I will ask for L2 next year, and try that.
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throwing no stones here and I know that you are very sensible but for anyone else reading- the trouble with social media is that someone's dog gets ill, it happens just after a vaccine so they attribute it to that without any sort of confirmation from you know, an expert. Then it gets plastered all over the internet, snowballs and people would rather believe something that confirms what they want to believe rather than anything else.

Thats not to say vaccine reactions don't happen- any animal can have a reaction to any vaccine at any given time-the immune system is a complex thing. Most vaccine reactions come from the adjuvant* used-this isn't the part of the organism you are vaccinating against itself, but something that boosts the immune system non-specifically i.e. its there to make the vaccine more efficient. My old horse had a terrible reaction to a certain brand of flu and tet and was fine with another-so I insisted he had the other. I don't know if there are different adjuvants in different L4 vaccines as I don't do dog vaccines but it might be worth a look or asking your vet but its absolutely ok too imo to ask for L2.

Saying that, flu jags make me feel lousy for a couple of days but are preferable to flu, yellow fever was the worst reaction I had but still better than actual yellow fever I would think ;) but its always a worry when its your beloved pet and they can't tell you whats up. One of my greatest fears with horses is grass sickness, when my horse had a vaccine reaction he presented just like a horse with acute GS so yes, I was freaked out.

*this isn't mercury, at least not in the EU-some of the older adjuvants weren't very nice either but they are no longer licensed. Huge amounts of research has gone into adjuvants because without them vaccines just don't generally work.
 
southerncomfort said:
Our little JRT was vaccinated day before yesterday with Versican Plus (L4).

She's been quiet ever since but she's just been sitting on my lap and I can feel that her kidneys are enlarged.

I've just googled the above vaccine and I'm horrified at what I've read! The L4 refers to a vaccine against leptospirosis and has been linked to numerous deaths. Many accounts of dogs going in to kidney failure, cardiac arrest, anaphylaxis etc.

Their have been calls for it to be withdrawn due to the large number of adverse reactions.

Little JRT is ok in herself, eating well, still telling the postman off etc but quieter than usual and wanting cuddles and looks a little stiff.

Anyone else's dog have a reaction to an L4 vaccine? Were they ok?
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Swelling at the injection site, to the size of a half lemon (technical term!), resolved after about a week. He's always been a bit quiet after any vacciantion and also seemed more likely to barf up in the car on the way home

In fairness, sensitive whippet skin could be to blame, but never seen it occur with any other injection/vaccination he's been given.

Individual choice is key here, but rather than letting the Daily Fail headlines terrify us, here's a link to reporting things like this to Veterinary Medicines Directorate, as wouldn't actual respectable numbers and data be better?
But I also appreciate this is going to have some level of subjective observation of symptoms:)

https://www.gov.uk/report-veterinary-medicine-problem
 
MotherOfChickens said:
throwing no stones here and I know that you are very sensible but for anyone else reading- the trouble with social media is that someone's dog gets ill, it happens just after a vaccine so they attribute it to that without any sort of confirmation from you know, an expert. Then it gets plastered all over the internet, snowballs and people would rather believe something that confirms what they want to believe rather than anything else.

Thats not to say vaccine reactions don't happen- any animal can have a reaction to any vaccine at any given time-the immune system is a complex thing. Most vaccine reactions come from the adjuvant* used-this isn't the part of the organism you are vaccinating against itself, but something that boosts the immune system non-specifically i.e. its there to make the vaccine more efficient. My old horse had a terrible reaction to a certain brand of flu and tet and was fine with another-so I insisted he had the other. I don't know if there are different adjuvants in different L4 vaccines as I don't do dog vaccines but it might be worth a look or asking your vet but its absolutely ok too imo to ask for L2.

Saying that, flu jags make me feel lousy for a couple of days but are preferable to flu, yellow fever was the worst reaction I had but still better than actual yellow fever I would think ;) but its always a worry when its your beloved pet and they can't tell you whats up. One of my greatest fears with horses is grass sickness, when my horse had a vaccine reaction he presented just like a horse with acute GS so yes, I was freaked out.

*this isn't mercury, at least not in the EU-some of the older adjuvants weren't very nice either but they are no longer licensed. Huge amounts of research has gone into adjuvants because without them vaccines just don't generally work.
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I tend to support all vaccines, but I love T more than my husband (it's OK, he knows that!) and the thought of her dying terrifies me. And yes I know she is a dog and it will happen sooner rather than later. I also acknowledge, if I decide not to do it I run the risk of her getting lepto...it's a no win really. I said after last years I wouldn't do it again, but then thought about the pros and cons and weighed in it's favour. This year she was ill for far longer though, a good two weeks, I was literally about to take her back to the vets, got up the next morning and she was her old cheery self. I don't even know it was the vaccine that caused it, but twice in a row seems a big coincidence.
 
You can feel her kidneys are enlarged?! In a dog?! That’s pretty urgent if there isn’t a kidney disease already diagnosed. She’ll be in agony if it’s that acute :( Is she producing any urine?
 
Luna was vaccinated as a puppy with the L4 vaccine, and we’ve carried it on.

We got Bo as a 4yo, not vaccinated since a pup as far as we know. We started his jabs again, including L4. No reaction in either of them.

I think social media is a curse and a great thing. Am not belittling those that have had reactions, be they coincidence or not. I’ve also read lots of bad things about Bravecto, but both of ours take it with no problems, as did Aled before them. He came to us with a bad flea infestation, and it was what the vet prescribed.
 
thanks Lev -it would probably turn into some unholy row though ;)

with horses which are known to have reactions bute is prescribed-would any of the vets on here prescribe metacam for a few days or not?
 
MotherOfChickens said:
thanks Lev -it would probably turn into some unholy row though ;)

with horses which are known to have reactions bute is prescribed-would any of the vets on here prescribe metacam for a few days or not?
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I've been thinking about this, and there was a timely article in Shooting Times this week about the worrisome drop in people vaccinating both themselves and their dogs. (Tawny's L4 was only four weeks ago, so fresh in my mind). Next year she is due the whole caboodle (3year cycle) so I will have that done when it comes due but not have lepto done at the same time. She is a very sensitive dog, always prone to skanky ears and bad feet. I could bring the lepto forward, but there seems little point having it done in spring when she doesn't go in water until the winter. I will speak to the vet again and see what he says.

As for Lev sharing your post 14, never let science get the the way of a good rumour!
 
MotherOfChickens said:
thanks Lev -it would probably turn into some unholy row though ;)

with horses which are known to have reactions bute is prescribed-would any of the vets on here prescribe metacam for a few days or not?
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Not without seeing the dog.
If the dogs kidneys are genuinely enlarged(which thankfully is unlikely given it doesnt sound likes its heading into renal failure from the clinical signs described) That is a massive medical crisis symptom and metacam with be very much contraindicated.

Serious possible vaccine reactions should be vet checked and reported. Many of the vaccine companies will refund the work up and vey fees in the case of true reactions...but only if its suspected the vaccine is the true cause of illness.
 
Aru said:
Not without seeing the dog.
If the dogs kidneys are genuinely enlarged(which thankfully is unlikely given it doesnt sound likes its heading into renal failure from the clinical signs described) That is a massive medical crisis symptom and metacam with be very much contraindicated.

Serious possible vaccine reactions should be vet checked and reported. Many of the vaccine companies will refund the work up and vey fees in the case of true reactions...but only if its suspected the vaccine is the true cause of illness.
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didn't mean for this one, but as a preventative for those that are known to feel a bit rubbish for a few days. I can see how it might not be a good thing although plenty of people use it for horses.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
didn't mean for this one, but as a preventative for those that are known to feel a bit rubbish for a few days. I can see how it might not be a good thing although plenty of people use it for horses.
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Depends on if they are actually running a true fever post vaccination and what underlying factors are present with the dog.

While very helpful in multiple cases Meloxicam(Metacams active ingredient)is not a benign side effects free drug and should not be used lightly.

We give it out a lot in vet med as its one of the safer pain relief and anti inflammatory drugs for dogs and cats,but domestic animals are much less able to tolerate nsaids compared to humans...and even in humans where ibuprofen etc are freely availiable over the counter and well tolerated Meloxicam is kept prescription only for a reason.

You have to weight the risk versus the gain to the animal.
Mild clincial signs- lethargy,off form for 24 hours but still eating drinking and realtively normal post vaccination wouldnt have me medicating my own pets.
Mind you I don't take medication for the lethargic and off feeling I get after the flu shot either just consider it the vaccine at work and chose the day I get the shot carefully.

No drug is benign. It's always a risk assessment. Thats why so many are prescription only....Ironically many of the currently available human meds would fail the safety trials if they were trying to get them licensed for over the counter use now.
 
Aru said:
Mild clincial signs- lethargy,off form for 24 hours but still eating drinking and realtively normal post vaccination wouldnt have me medicating my own pets.
.
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You see really, that was Tawny down pat, but for two weeks this last time. The year before was only a few days.
 
Clodagh said:
You see really, that was Tawny down pat, but for two weeks this last time. The year before was only a few days.
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I'd split her vaccines and see which ones shes reacting to.
Temperature test her daily after if shes acting off and see if shes running fevers post vaccine-those dogs do benefit from meds.
Maybe titre test for the virals(parvo.distemper.adeno) instead of repeating the whole lot as well.

If she wasn't a shooting dog I'd talk about risk exposure versus benefit for lepto...but given shes higher risk for that its hard to advise dropping it knowing how severe lepto can be.

Has she been a reactor since puppyhood? Or just worsening each year?
Live or killed vaccines or a mix of both?
Any other meds given at same time?(we generally split our vaccines and medications like wormers/tick control by a few days to be careful)
 
Aru said:
I'd split her vaccines and see which ones shes reacting to.
Temperature test her daily after if shes acting off and see if shes running fevers post vaccine-those dogs do benefit from meds.
Maybe titre test for the virals(parvo.distemper.adeno) instead of repeating the whole lot as well.

If she wasn't a shooting dog I'd talk about risk exposure versus benefit for lepto...but given shes higher risk for that its hard to advise dropping it knowing how severe lepto can be.

Has she been a reactor since puppyhood? Or just worsening each year?
Live or killed vaccines or a mix of both?
Any other meds given at same time?(we generally split our vaccines and medications like wormers/tick control by a few days to be careful)
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Seeing the other thread reminded me that I rudely did not reply to this, I am sorry.

She is worse each year, well I didn't notice any reaction until last year, worse this one.
I don't know which vaccine, and I can't check her card as I forgot to take it with me.
No other meds, I worm about a fortnight after any jabs.

Good idea about ttaking her temp, I will do that. THank you.
 
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I work at a very busy small animal practice. We vaccinate many many dogs a year - over two thousand I think - and in the 5 years I've been there I can't remember a single instance of a serious/life threatening reaction. A small handful in that time have reacted at the site of vacc - a lump, usually - and I'm not sure if these were to the L4. Some owners have reported dogs being off colour for a day or two.
I always have my 3 done.
 
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