Realistic Kissing Spine Prognosis?

grhands

grhands

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Hi everyone. I'm hoping for a little advice from those in the know. I bought a lovely 16.2hh Irish Sports Horse last month. He's only five yet quite chilled out by nature. On the road he is a dream to ride. However things have never been quite right when it comes to flatwork and schooling in general. Saying that, he's ok on the lunge. He was terrible on the right but that has really improved. The big issue has always been when I have been on him. I could never quite put my finger on the problem but I had a very experienced and knowledgable lady (proven)! visit me today and after riding him she has suspected that kissing spine in the problem. On doing a little research this-afternoon I'd put money on this being Arthurs problem. He has always been very nervous when I mount, resulting in occasional bucking fits until I hit the dirt. He's always very reluctant to 'bend' and hates having me apply any leg. This also can result in fits of bucking. As does asking him to canter. Cantering around a corner has always been completely out of the question. He's never properly relaxed and I just thought this was my riding (hence purchasing him) however I should have gone with my gut obviously. The thing is, taking in to consideration these quite extreme reactions what do you thing the prognosis might be for him realistically? He's insured for vets fee's etc so I'm not too worried about the cost at this point. Obviously I will be getting a specialist out to see him asap and I'm not going to ride him until I know more. Not wanting to cause unnecessary pain, I'll lunge him daily for now as he's fine with that. I've only found out today that this is probably the issue, it's fresh in my mind and I almost want some reassurance that he will be fine to ride. I'm not fragile though and I can handle the truth if the prognosis doesn't look great. I'd love to hear from others who have been in a similar situation.

Thanks
 
He sounds just like my young 17HH stallion, also Arthur. Good as gold on long reins and ridden walk and trot. Trouble started when asked to canter on left rein. He has never attempted to buck me off - superb temperament of the Cleveland Bay.

He was passed sound by a total of five vets, in fact my French vet got cross with me and told me he needed more work to muscle him up. I took him to a top dressage trainer, who loved him too. Her diagnosis was - he has a lovely canter but does not want to canter under the saddle, take him to the Professor at Nantes, an FEI vet.

This we did. He agreed with me that the horse probably had a back problem. X-rays revealed that he had an old fracture and arthritis in his neck (aged 4) and two kissing spines, probably the same cause accidental injury during first year.

In France they recommend injections into the spine to alleviate the pain. I don't want to do that. Surgery in the UK will cost more than his purchase price. There is a vet in Gloucestershire who has had good results with surgery including competition horses.

As he is very soft and well behaved on long reins, and he produces nice foals, our plan is to breed from him again next year, collect semen if viable and castrate him. We will then use him for driving as he is quite happy without a rider.

In your case it depends on how much you want to spend and whether your horse's potential warrants the cost of surgery.

I wish you well.
 
Firstly get a correct veterinary diagnosis to make sure that KS in the actual problem and only xrays/ MRI/bone scan will reveal this.

Secondly if he has got a problem then do not waste time and money on injections as to be honest in all but the most minor of impingements they very rarely work for any lenght of time.

My mare had the op last august for the removal of 4 spineous dorsal impingements and I was back riding her again early in the new year. You will find quite a few posts on here regarding KS. A lot have been succesfully operated on and the key to this is providing the horse doesn't have any other medical issues.

Please pm me for more info if you want. My mare's before and after xrays are in the photo gallery of the veterinary section page 8
 
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Wow thanks alot for your in depth responses. I had never heard of the condition before today and this has been a real eye opener. Can a horse with kissing spine eventually return to a normal level of work following surgery? Or is this asking the length of a piece of string??
 
Around 70% of horse return to their previous level of work.
My TB had the op exactly a year ago, after months of rehab I had him back in ridden work, after a few months all his old behaviour returned.
I was gutted when I was forced to retire him 2 days before his 9th birthday, so just be careful post op.
Echo above through, ensure a proper diagnosis is given by proper investigation.
 
I ran into problems with my mare last autumn, she too started rearing, bucking and misbehaving. I had an osteo look at her and she suggested i get a vet check her as she suspected Kissing Spine (this osteo is a classically trained vet). I did this and had x-rays taken, she was clear of kissing spine.
I continued working with her and but towards the end of january the problems started again. A friend at the barn offered to ride her to find out what was going on as i was at my witts end and my confidence had taken a battering. She was still a joy on the ground and worked well on the lunge, yet under saddle she would rear without warning, or so I thought at the time. As my friend rode her she worked wonderfully in walk and trot, the problem quite literally rose when she was asked to canter and my mare reared. The friend continued working her and managed to get her to canter as asked and came back to me with her prognosis that her back did not have sufficient musculation to cope with the work being asked of her...when she said this to me it was like a light bulb moment and i felt awful for having not thought of this possibility on my own.
We did lunge work with and without a pessoa to build up her back as well as riding building back up to canter under saddle.
Touch-wood we have nipped her rearing in the bud, although in the mean-time i have since come to the conlusion that an ill-fitting saddle more than likely contributed to aggravating the problem.

I will point out that i had her teeth done, osteo out for check ups (marked improvement) and a homeopathic/holistic masseuse also worked with her.

I am not suggesting this is the situation with your horse, but as Kissing Spine was suggested as a solution to my then problem, i thought my story might help in some way. I too had not heard of KS until it was suggested as a reason for her mis-behaviour, and got a fright when i googled it. I was pretty releaved when she turned out to be in the clear. All it took to know for sure was x-rays by the vet which mine did on the spot and results could be viewed immediately on a monitor in her car. The relief i felt at the time is incomparable, hopefully it is a similar outcome for your gelding...although the re-bilding road has taken time it has been well worth the bonding experience of all the lungeing.
 
One of my clients horses has just been diagnosed with kissing spines. After showing serious behavioural problems that indicated pain, I suggested we got the vet out, and KS was diagnosed.
75% chance that horse will return to previous level of work with the op. Far more worthwhile that the injections IMO, as they only treat the problem not the cause.


Check out my blog (link to it in my sig), I have shared my experience of it so far :)
 
The horse my sister's friend rides (it belongs to her MIL) had kissing spine surgery about 2 years ago I think. I believe he is about 9 yo now. Prior to that he was eventing at pre-novice level and after the op had a good period of rest. He is now back in work and my sister's friend is competing him at Novice level eventing, doing considtently well and is looking to do her 1st 1 star in a few weeks. I do think the surgery has come a long way over recent years.
 
Another back problem which can cause the same symptoms as kissing spine but is actually more difficult to treat and deal with is problems with the supraspinous ligament ie sprain or damage. If an xray doesn't reveal any bony problems with the spine then ask for an ultrasound scan of the ligament.
 
We thought the horse I ride had kissing spine. Similar problems, canter he kept going disunited then just stopped and refused to move. He could also get quite cross and bad tempered. There are more details on another thread on here.

Turns out after full back assessment, X-ray, ultrasound and then a bone scan to confirm bones weren't the problem, he's been diagnosed with damage to the supraspinous ligament. We aren't riding yet but most of the way through a 6 week program of lunging in Pessoa with two weekly shock wave treatments. Back to the vets next week for another scan to see how the ligament is doing. He's a much happier chap now.

Another horse on my yard was diagnosed last year with KS. He had an operation then 12 weeks rehab program. Starting off on box rest for first 6 weeks walking twice a day starting with 10 minutes and then working up to an hour. The next 6 weeks on restricted turn out, lunging in pessoa. He's now back working and doing great.

If you have insurance or the means and are prepared to get a vet to look into this, then I recommend you do it. Even if its to rule it out.
 
How much would the operation be? And would the insurance company foot the bill do you think?? I am covered for vets fee's up to £5000

Isn't supraspinous ligament damage usually associated with overstretching during use (such as in jumping)?? Arthur hasn't been backed too long. I'm not sure on his background but I know he was unbroken 18m ago.

Thanks everyone
 
My horse had a KS op in April. The diagosis and the operation cost £4500. She had one month of box rest and three months on field rest. The vet is due to check her in 2wks time and then the plan is to bring her back into work. If you have any questions I would be happy to answer them.
 
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Hello!

Have you had a vet look at him/x-ray him yet? There are also a couple of things to remember:

The pain may not necessarily come from his back (might be his hind limbs etc, make sure your vet trots him up to see if he is lame!!)
A lot of horses that present with possible back pain actually have behavioural problems
...and also consider the fact that about 50% of horses have some impinging spinous processes but show no symptoms and have no pain. Therefore although your horse may have back pain and some impinging processes this may not necessarily be the cause...

However if you do find your horse has kissing spines and he does need surgery your insurance company should pay out providing it is well justified - look at getting your vet to do a ridden analgesia trial/local anaesthesia blocks into the spaces between the impingements. Bear in mind that you will have to claim for the consultation/x-rays/blocks etc. Also most kissing spine surgeries are done standing and this is cheaper than your horse having a general anaesthetic. I think £5000 should cover it depending on your vet and providing your horse has no complications.

Hope this helps :)
 
grhands said:
Isn't supraspinous ligament damage usually associated with overstretching during use (such as in jumping)??
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That's what I've heard, not the case with mine though. He's barley done any jumping and nothing of any hight! We have no idea how it happened. He's never been easy. I took him on last July as a naughty 5 year old just back from 8 weeks schooling. It took nearly 5 months to get him to work forward and to canter with any kind of balance. Only started taking contact early this year. It could be he's had mild pain for some time, it would explain a lot. He can buck like a beast possessed and will do for fun in the field..We have been ruling things out for most of the past 8 months. Finding issues, resolving them, moving things forwards then coming up against another lot of challenging behaviour.

As for the operation, I don't know how much it costs my friend. I know her insurance covered it. She's also a vet nurse at the hospital where the horse had the surgery. I can ask her.

X-ray and scan are a couple of hundred. Bone scan was £600 but that because they have to keep them for over 24 hours as they are radioactive. The inject them with an isotope. However this scan may not be necessary for all.

When we thought we might be going down this route I did look into part livery for the rehab. I share the horse and myself, I work full time, his owner has two toddler aged kids and in reality, walking a horse twice a day for up to an hour on a yard without a horse walker, would have been near impossible. But this is down to our situations, I don't live very close by. Just wanted to add this as it is something to bare in mind.
 
Well we only recently had a two stage done on him and nothing came to light. He was trotted up / lunged etc. He passed with flying colours. One thing I have noticed though is that he occasionally stretches his off hind leg right out behind him when I pick his foot up. Do you think it could be related? We only had the ks suspected on Fri. This week will bring the answers.
 
We found out our mare had kissing spines when she reared up and then over, landing on top of my MiL. She also had severe gastric ulcers.

She is back in ridden work, both in the school and as a happy hack. She does remember pain though and therefore she does rear up if you are careless with the saddle. Rearing is also now her default setting when things are stressful. But we take care with her and we've not had any feet off the ground for weeks now. Xx
 
My mare had the op and made are full recovery.
I don't think the injections are always benificial, the just mask the pain but the wear off so you are back where you started.
If you have only had this horse a month be careful that your insurance will cover it.
Don't they have a settling in period?
 
Our mare has a KS where every other vertebrae is touching.. we didn't have the op done as removing every other vertebrae is basically butchery! She had ultra sound done by the vet followed by being worked in a pessoa..back lady & vet come to check her every 3 months & she now has no problems at all..
 
Ginger Bear said:
Our mare has a KS where every other vertebrae is touching.. we didn't have the op done as removing every other vertebrae is basically butchery! She had ultra sound done by the vet followed by being worked in a pessoa..back lady & vet come to check her every 3 months & she now has no problems at all..
Click to expand...

I've seen the pessoa training aid being mentioned a few times now. In this thread and others. Does it help? If so how? Whenever I see it being used it seems to make the horse look like they're working in a really odd position. Kinda like they're sniffing their front feet(!) however if it will help him I will invest...

Oh and thank-you to everyone for your long posts and words of advice. It is very much appreciated.
 
Pessoa, if used correctly encourages the horse to work long and low and helps to increase muscle over the back.
 
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