Really difficult youngster......

[keeperscottage]

A lot of you on here will know that my daughter, now 22, battled (successfully) osteosarcoma (adolescent bone cancer) at the age of 16 and now has 19 inches of titanium in her left leg (was 17 inches, but she managed to break it in March this year and they had to remove more bone to insert the new titanium implant). All's now fine.....

However, after her first surgery in 2007, I bought her (at her request!) a foal - very well bred and quite expensive - as an "operation present". He has been a total gentleman - exceptionally well handled, backed at 3 (no problems), hacked around the farm, seen lots by having been lead out by my daughter whilst riding one of her other horses........sent off October 2010 to Pony Club instructor to be brought on (she loved him - thought he was a potential Burghley Young Event Horse - far beyond our requirements of him!!!).....then we brought him back to our yard and he has been a total BAR$TARD! Rears and rears...naps.....bordering on dangerous. We have no arena at our yard. We live in a predominantly hunting area and so, no, moving to a yard with an arena is not an option because, around here, they don't exist! My daughter, a feisty rider, refused to be beaten and hacked him out six times per week. Sometimes he'd be perfect......most times he wasn't.....she cannot afford to fall off and break the titanium in her leg - she's been told that she can only have it replaced twice more and then she'll lose her leg and, battling with this horse, isn't worth risking losing your leg! A couple of months ago, the last time she rode him, I was lunging one of her horses in a field. I heard her shouting at him from down the road to get on - she then appeared in the yard, he reared up, she jumped off just as he went up again, she went to grab his reins but he reared up (again) and buggered off! My daughter is a gutsy rider but she actually said she nearly "cacked" her pants on that ride. She hasn't ridden him since. Everything's been checked - saddle, teeth - osteopath's been out - all fine. He was such a sweetheart - she used to ride him in from the field bareback leading another horse. What has gone wrong? My daughter's wellbeing is more important than this horse, but she loves him dearly and doesn't want to give up on him. He'll be 6 next May. Farrier has told her to turn him away for the winter, which she has done - I'm SO relieved! He simply rears at every opportunity, but we have no idea why. Friends have told her to sell him but she won't because, despite his breeding, she's worried he'll end up in the food chain and she couldn't bear to have that on her conscious.......

Any ideas, folks? (Oh, and we can't afford to send him away to a trainer at £150+ per week!)

 

[cm2581]

Yikes. All sounds a bit scary! How is his behaviour when handled and turned out with other horses? Is this unchanged or has there been a change there too? If he has overall changed maybe speak to your vet about blood tests for hormones too see if he is a rig or occasionally there can be tumours that release testo

 

[Nosey]

So did it start to go downhill after horse was returned from PC instructor? Does she or he have any explanations or suggestions? Is horse the same when going out in company?

 

[intouch]

Was he like that immediately he came back from training - could something have happened you weren't told about? Rearing is not an option, he'd be better off in the food chain than damaging your daughter, to be blunt.

 

[Welshie Squisher]

Teenage tantrums?

I have a rising 6 cob who although wonderful now, was a complete little turd for a good 6 months to a year.
He threw everything at me and my daughter and we had to just ride through it all and not give in, used bits of tack that improved safety, body protector etc.

If it is just this which is common at this age, turning away may well help.
It's a vicious circle, the more the succeed the worse they become, and the scarier it becomes to ride through it all.
I too couldn't afford to send mine away, so we went for small steps, tackled one problem at a time.

I would try again in the spring, and look into what you can do to improve safety in the meantime and find a good instructor.

 

[1t34]

You will probably get far more eloquent and insightful replies than this one, but here goes. How's he bred - you mention he is competition bred some of the hotter w/bs or 3/4 tbs can be very hot and tricky as youngsters. Sounds like he is either a 5 year old, sometimes they can go through a toddler stage at that age. You really need to get on top of him and not give him an inch. If he goes up have someone on the ground with a large luge whip, crack him up the backside and get him moving forwards - no messing you say go and he goes. Sort of have a zero tolerance to any bad behaviour be it ridden or whatever. Also it may be helpful to put a pair of draw or running reins on him for a little while so she can keep control of the front end.

If the risk isn't worth it then sell and I would go for a pro yard where they will take a percentage whilst getting on top of him. If he's nicely bred with a bit of potential he should sell ok.

 

[Welshie Squisher]

Oh and just to add, I too do not understand if he came back like this and he was supposedly good for PC instructor?
From what you say, this horse was fine until he spent time with PC instructor?

 

[cm2581]

Bloody phone!!

Release testosterone. Is he insured? How about a full lameness work up/ orthopaedic examination?

Does anyone else ride him? Sorry to sound rude, is your daughter too heavy for him? Is she heavy handed? Does gutsy maybe mean she's putting too much pressure on him and he can't cope?

I know you say saddle is fine but have you tried him in a different one? Wouldn't be the first time that its the seemingly perfect fitting saddle that's been the problem!

Different bit? Teeth may seem fine but if the rearing is predecessed by any appearance of mouth/face/pain discomfort maybe xray of teeth/head?

Does this happen only alone or also in company? If only alone is there anyway someone could accompany her? Even a non rider leading another of her horses may help if its confidence based.

There is also the possibility he's just being an arse as they quite often can be at that age even when they were great to back and ride away.

No idea if any of this will help, I'm just throwing out everything I can think of! Hope you get a solution.

 

[keeperscottage]

It34, he's Selle Francais x KWPN graded mare with Dallas/Pouchka III lines. He jumps like a stag, his paces are AMAZING - he just FLOATS. Haven't tried draw reins yet, so that's something to think about. Saddest of all is that he was such a lovely 3 year old.......

 

[flyingfeet]

It does sound like a habit he learnt when we was away - if this is the case I'd eyeball the person and see if she will 'fess up.

Have you got any polo grooms handy to you? I would be paying for someone to nip this in the bud at your place and under your watchful eye. Most polo grooms if still here don't have much to do, and will happily sort a horse out for cash

Sorting out a rearer is not for someone in a fragile state

 

[honetpot]

I know nothing of the instructer so can not comment, all I can say is that I sent my daughter and her young horse to have some lessons on a pro yard over the October half term, we had no problems with the horses but had no school so needed the school more than the lessons.
On the pro yard it was a bit like horse borstal, they did as they were told or else. I wanted my daughter only to ride him but the only time the pro rode him she pushed him until he misbehaved and then was unable to do anything with him and proceeded to beat the c**p out of him to no availe. Both my daughter and I were horrified and he left the next day, and god love him reverted to being the sweet horse he was. He's a bit thick.
Pro yards tend to have faster goals than most of us and if they get a good horse push them just to see how good they are. The only horse I have sent away to be broken came back starting to weave, yes she could canter a 20 metre circle but a what cost?
A lot of the horses that are preped for the big sales are forced into a outline and are drilled ridden so strongly they have no other option but to conform and often go backwards with their new owners.
I think turning him a way is a good idea, I would then send him to a racing yard that does breaking and see if they can get him going forward. Racers do not fiddle with their mouths and will sit just about anything by the sounds of it he's sensitive and the last thing he needs is to be drilled.
After my expeiences with pros I have decided that my long winded amateur way is the best and would never send mine to one again.

 

[keeperscottage]

Turned out, he's still our bog-standard Archie - no change! Really don't think PC instructor is to blame - she thought he was amazing and really liked him! HOWEVER.....I was in the yard when farrier came to trim him a week or two back (we've had his shoes taken off) and he kicked the farrier, then minutes later, having a tantrum, trod on his foot! (Used to be really good.....)

 

[keeperscottage]

Jen_Cots - we have a local polo yard!

 

[keeperscottage]

Honetpot, PC instructor wasn't a "pro" yard. She just took our youngster on because she enjoyed bringing on yongsters. Prior to the PC instructor, we looked into sending him to another local woman who, when I asked what she'd expect him to be doing after a month or so with her, replied that she'd be taking him out competing BE Intro! \Now, that I thought was too much!

 

[cm2581]

The difficulty with the farrier could point towards a physical problem. Farriers move the horses limbs in much more extreme ways than normal movement does so shoeing problems can show physical pros before they are obvious.

 

[SpruceRI]

I wonder whether the change back to your quieter environment has upset him.

I say this because I once sent a 3yr old pony mare to my friends' yard to be backed. My field was in the middle of nowhere with no facilities. Hers, had a bit more life and she had around 20 other ponies, lots of kids around, lots going on.

My pony was perfectly well behaved at my friends' and was very quiet to back and ride away.

But when I brought her home she was a brat. And the first time I tried to ride her she had a paddy and reared right up. She'd never done that before - ever.

I did get on and ride her, rather fearfully....

Turned her away for a month to let her settle back into our quiet life and she was fine after that. I truly believe she was unhappy to be home!

 

[keeperscottage]

SpruceRI -Dunno.....it has been a year now since youngster was with PC instructor and her yard was very quiet and calm (as is ours - we rent a yard with four stables on a farm - all our horses on the yard). My daughter was an amazing young rider prior the events to 2006 and I was a pushy Pony Club mum but all that has gone now and just want her leg to be undamaged! There's not an easy answer to this and my daughter still rides as though she's "normal" (she was determined to get out hunting on Boxing Day 2006 whilst on chemo and there are photographs of her on our village website, on her outgrown pony, wig under her hat, feeling SO ill because she had a cold - but she managed to hunt for all of fifteen minutes!!!). I thought this youngster was going to be so easy - he's been so carefully handled and so on.........

 

[moneypit1]

I rarely reply to threads like these as it usually ends up in a bitchy exchange. If you look at my recent posts I mentioned I was taking a rearer in but the H&H pack were at my heels in a second! I will throw my advice in.... I take on horses and ponies with behaviour problems, serial rearers, buckers etc. I usually find that the problem can only be dealt with on the ground first. In my experience the horse is testing you and looking for a leader. This horse sounds a replica of one I have in at the moment. You must establish compliance on the ground in both directions. Actually the dreaded 'Parelli' word could be useful here! I do not know much about Parelli tbh, but a friend of mine uses it on my most difficult horses before I get on and I can only tell you that it makes a hell of a difference. What have you got to loose by opening up to all advice and trying it? I use a variety of methods, could not care less what 'label' anyone puts on them but I do have a lot of success and at the end of the day what works works. Good luck.

 

[ISHmad]

See if you can contact Julia Fisher. She is one of the Intelligent Horsemanship RA's and is very experienced with youngsters and remedial horses. Not 100% sure but think she is down in Herts.

 

[SuseP]

I got my trakehner gelding as a 2yr old and he was very dopey and submissive. At 6yrs old he suddenly 'grew some' out of nowhere and whilst he was relatively safe to ride, he became an arse on the ground. I think you're right to turn him away and then bring him back with lots of manners training on the ground (in whatever form you prefer). It will be good for him to be under less pressure and you can relax as your daughter will be safe. The best advice I ever got was from a top instructor..."Have faith, he's just making sure you love him when he's bad too". Soppy I know but it worked for me. Teenagers, of any species it seems, give us hell. Best of luck to you.

 

[siennamum]

I do agree with those who have suggested behavioural/NH type approaches.

My youngster rears, he is also rising 6 and sharp and clever. He started misbehaving with his breeders and I then had hin to break & bring on. We managed to avoid any rears for a year, till I put a bit more pressure on him and he went straight up. It's his device to assert control.

Problem is that it only takes one or two rears for a bright youngster to realise it can get control. If your daughter doesn't have any techniques to stop the rearing or to make it really uncomfortable when he does it, then he will just keep doing it.

I did the following: Initially I long reined out and really drove him with the lunge whip past spots where he would jib normally. I rode in draw reins for a couple of months (they really helped), I spin him when he successfully goes up and he gets chased round with the whip and voice (more waving than hitting), If he jibs I move him sideways immediately, if he successfully goes up he gets a sharp one across the top of his neck (sometimes showing him the whip is enough).

This is all quite scary and a bit risky, mine is very calculating and well balanced, but there is always the danger they could lose balance. Mine has probably actually gone up about 8 times with me, so I really do try and avoid it happening regularly.

In your place, if things have really progressed to regular rearing, I would go right back to some ground work with experienced support. I wouldn't actually leave horse in the field, he is learning nothing. Ground work all Winter would probably be good for daughter and horse.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Without seeing the horse it is difficult, I would go for stabling at night and out during day, make sure you use a strong competent person to handle him and a chiffney [tight] if you need to back up your own handling, use a NH halter to give you control and do some NH halter exercises in his stable where he is relaxed.
Go back to basics ie long reining as long as you are not having dramas, it is no use if each lesson is a battle.
Handle formally and consistently in the box, grooming and picking feet, tie him up so he has discipline, no soft and cuddly ideas as long as he is being a pain. No treats or cereal feeds.
Get an osteo person to examine him from head to toe, ask farrier to visit monthly, so he has a man who is not going to let him off with anything, but do NOT allow him to hit the horse excessively or angrily. Get a good EDT to come and see him, explain the problem and find one who is experienced and who is happy to give it a try, to my mind it is your responsibility to give him a shot of Sedalin, two shots if necessary, pay the EDT for his time, even if he has to "give up" before the job is completed, what you want to know is if there is a mega problem in this area.
I know it seems "off the wall", but if all this does not have desired efffect contact Isobel Houghton, she does sacro-cranial, massage, and animal communications, for want of a better phrase.
Learn to "read his ears" and anticipate his nonsense.
No matter how good a rider, your daughter is bound to be tense when she rides, so I would ban her from riding him, until this has passed.
Racing yards and polo yards will have good tough lads to sort him out, but make sure they can ride, not just be tough.

 

[flyingfeet]

I did the following: Initially I long reined out and really drove him with the lunge whip past spots where he would jib normally. I rode in draw reins for a couple of months (they really helped), I spin him when he successfully goes up and he gets chased round with the whip and voice (more waving than hitting), If he jibs I move him sideways immediately, if he successfully goes up he gets a sharp one across the top of his neck (sometimes showing him the whip is enough)

I totally agree with this, although I missed out the long reining as I couldn't reproduce the behaviour at home - this was a pony that was only rearing in the line out at polocrosse, just sitting there didn't work to the point where she fell over with me. I usually can sort problems out, but with neck reining and a racquet I was out of my comfort zone.

I stuck an Aussie pro player on her and he taught me a technique to control her and nip this in the bud - same as the above, the minute they think about it, head to your foot, where they cannot rear from and then tap behind with a long whip to keep them spinning. Stop, and go back to what you were doing. In this case she learnt fairly quickly that standing in a line out was preferable to spinning on a tight circle.

This is why I was suggesting a polo groom, as polo ponies are usually very well behaved and they can often teach a simple technique to sort them out (another NZ polo guy taught me how to fix a dirty bucker)

 

[Luci07]

Without knowing your horse it's hard to make a call, but for something else to throw into the frame, I would put it down to him being a baby. I see a lot of babies in our yard as my YO is an event rider but seems to specialise in bringing on babies. There is absolutely no rythme or reason as to how they will react to growing up and working. She has a pure Irish TB 5 this time who DID do BYEH and some intros back end of last year. He was ready. Another TB needed holding back as needed more time to mentally mature and a third who, same age, has only now started jumping. Some have been unbelievably easy, some - like mine, changed whe they felt fitter and stronger. In my case my youngster is in the process of being sold to a proper hunting home with a male rider. He kept growing and I just couldn't bottom him out. Your baby may simply be a bright pony who needs a lot more work and stimulation than you are in a position to offer. Point out to your daughter that she would be spending as much time and money on a horse she could relax on and enjoy. If you live anywhere her Surrey, flip her over my way. I have a lovely semi retired event mare she could hack out on..the reason being is that, while Frosty is not a novice ride, it can be a big wake up call when you hack her out and remember it can be fun and idiotic with no worries. She has done that for a couple of people on the yard now all of whom were struggling I with babies. All came back with a massive smile in their face as the old lady is no dobbin but is also huge fun!

 

[dotty1]

I have a four year old whos grandfather is Pouchka. She is great most of the time and a very fast learner but she has a short temper and can throw her toys out and so far has only done a couple of small rears, both times when I have also thrown my toys out due to frustraton!!! I think you will find that many of Pouchkas offspring are tempremental and quirky so some of it may be just him!!. I also think you will find that may of Pouchkas offspring are very highly talented too!!
Maybe a fresh start after being turned out for a while will help, also an IH RA may help you get to the bottom of what hes thinking and how to respond in different situations.

 

[stoneybroke]

There is some great advice on here and I am sure with correct help you will crack the problem but is it really worth the risk to your daughter's leg and ongoing health?

Cut your losses and look after that precious fragile limb.

Good Luck

 

[Marydoll]

I know you Say teeth, back etc checked, he sounds like my boy as a youngster, i to did the usual checks but the behaviour continued and got worse.
Ask your vet about a lameness work up, i did with my then 5yo, it showed bony changes with spurs in both hocks he had djd.
I hope this isnt the case with your boy, but at least speak to your vet, he may not think its needed, my lad just looked lazy some days, no obvious lameness until he was nerve blocked, then it was obvious, he was so equally bi laterally
lame, he looked sound.
If thats ruled out, you know then its possibly all behaviour, if you can afford to i'd suggest a Richard Maxwell visit, he is fantastic, he will work with your horse on the ground and in the saddle, help give you tools to deal with the behaviour, many which can be done from the ground, but translate under saddle so your daughter can deal with the problems before getting back on board.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

I have not read all replies but this happened before he came back. He's too good at it for him not doing it at the "trainers" place.

Did you go and see him work? Was he always tacked up and working when you got there? Was he turned out during the breaking process?

You sing high praises of this person but not understanding why said person deserves the praise other than you like them. I know a few nice people who can ride and teach but yet I wouldn't give them a horse to start ever.

Starting youngsters is a skill such as being John Whittaker or Carl Hester. A person that does not have that skill and pretends they do risks ruining your horse for life. That is the absolute truth.

So I caution anyone who wants a youngster started to do their homework and drop by whenever. It's the policy I had. Also I had them come ride their horse several times before leaving. That did not include working the snot out of one before owner came. My reputation was only about the horses I sent out there. And because all horses are not perfect I was brutally honest about any quirk I could think of. But let me tell you it's a thankless job. Most owners want a horse started for cheap as possible and hand away their horse to just about anyone without knowing anything about horses they've started from scratch. You wouldn't send Carl Hester your GP jumper so don't send your pride and joy partner for life to just anyone. Does not mean they aren't good at what they do but again it is a skill.

Terri

 

[brighteyes]

I rarely reply to threads like these as it usually ends up in a bitchy exchange. If you look at my recent posts I mentioned I was taking a rearer in but the H&H pack were at my heels in a second! I will throw my advice in.... I take on horses and ponies with behaviour problems, serial rearers, buckers etc. I usually find that the problem can only be dealt with on the ground first. In my experience the horse is testing you and looking for a leader. This horse sounds a replica of one I have in at the moment. You must establish compliance on the ground in both directions. Actually the dreaded 'Parelli' word could be useful here! I do not know much about Parelli tbh, but a friend of mine uses it on my most difficult horses before I get on and I can only tell you that it makes a hell of a difference. What have you got to loose by opening up to all advice and trying it? I use a variety of methods, could not care less what 'label' anyone puts on them but I do have a lot of success and at the end of the day what works works. Good luck.

Good for you - I agree and would have said it myself. He's trying to tell you something and you need to listen, or find someone who can before you give up on him.

I'm going to watch with interest as the OP is no fool and he sounds to have all the potential in the world.

The very best of luck indeed.

Also second the 'put a RIDER' on, when the time comes, someone who also has a 'connection' and not just the ability to ride.

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

It sounds to me like the youngster is testing out your daughter, and this has happened after a stronger rider has got control of your horse.

Obviously your daughter needs to be mindful of her leg and the safest option at the moment seems to give the horse some time off until the spring to mature a little bit, have lots of checks done and re-start him when the weather is better and there is no rush for the remaining daylight.

I second getting someone sticky and brave to sit on the horse in the spring and teach some methods to pull down and catch a rearer, can I please advise against using a man if possible? IMO horses learn very quickly that women are weaker than men and if you're trying to stop a fight developing you need to use wits more than strength, especially if your daughter needs to be able to match what's happening and her strength and confidence has been compromised.

I also second draw reins for hacking. you can leave them long until the horse starts to misbehave that way they learn it's easier to just get on with life with no interference. Lots of my eventer friends do road work in them, it's just safer with fit buzzy horses to have the option available, even if they're not used.