Really difficult youngster......

[eahotson]

I have not read all replies but this happened before he came back. He's too good at it for him not doing it at the "trainers" place.

Did you go and see him work? Was he always tacked up and working when you got there? Was he turned out during the breaking process?

You sing high praises of this person but not understanding why said person deserves the praise other than you like them. I know a few nice people who can ride and teach but yet I wouldn't give them a horse to start ever.

Starting youngsters is a skill such as being John Whittaker or Carl Hester. A person that does not have that skill and pretends they do risks ruining your horse for life. That is the absolute truth.

So I caution anyone who wants a youngster started to do their homework and drop by whenever. It's the policy I had. Also I had them come ride their horse several times before leaving. That did not include working the snot out of one before owner came. My reputation was only about the horses I sent out there. And because all horses are not perfect I was brutally honest about any quirk I could think of. But let me tell you it's a thankless job. Most owners want a horse started for cheap as possible and hand away their horse to just about anyone without knowing anything about horses they've started from scratch. You wouldn't send Carl Hester your GP jumper so don't send your pride and joy partner for life to just anyone. Does not mean they aren't good at what they do but again it is a skill.

Terri

Oh how I agree with all of that!One woman I know with a very nice youngster said that she wouldn't send her to one man for breaking, although he is very good and experienced because he charged £250 a week!!! That of course, includes full livery! and that includes full livery.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

You really need to get on top of him and not give him an inch. If he goes up have someone on the ground with a large luge whip, crack him up the backside and get him moving forwards - no messing you say go and he goes. Sort of have a zero tolerance to any bad behaviour be it ridden or whatever. Also it may be helpful to put a pair of draw or running reins on him for a little while so she can keep control of the front end.

k.

Ignoring them can sometimes work as well. This is the master as far as I'm concerned http://m.youtube.com/#/profile?user=endospink&v=VKkl8jbe0Ks&view=videos

 

[Miss L Toe]

Re costs, I sent my boy for three weeks to learn transitions, the pony was lightly backed, safe, just green. I told them this as I would not expect them to put lives on the line for a three week livery, or expect miracles.
I paid full livery, which included turnout, £140, and for the training it was £70 per week, one day of rest. If the horse was a rearer ie dangerous, I would expect to pay more, and to leave him there for 8 to ten weeks, but I would also make sure the person was experienced, had good facilities and was going to do a lot of groundwork. Two people are often needed to handle this type of animal, so the training cost would be higher.
The owner should always go and ride the horse before it leaves the premises, and obviously it should not be over-worked to make it submissive.
If this horse is going to continue to be difficult it should be found a competitive home in a pro yard, as it may not be suited to the average rider, with limited time and facilities.

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

just a thought- what about sending to an event yard and becoming an owner to an event horse for a couple of years? It may be expensive but the horse would be worked, your daughter could get her strength up and you could have fun with the horse and have a brilliant social life amd build up contacts for a couple of years!

 

[1t34]

It34, he's Selle Francais x KWPN graded mare with Dallas/Pouchka III lines. He jumps like a stag, his paces are AMAZING - he just FLOATS. Haven't tried draw reins yet, so that's something to think about. Saddest of all is that he was such a lovely 3 year old.......

Hmmm does sound very familiar, does sound like he has got above himself a bit, he's a big strong blood horse and I bet he is supremely balanced when he does go up!

If you are going to keep him I would go for a zero tolerance approach, pop him in the draw reins, make him go forwards at all times and make sure she keeps flexing him from side to side if he is being difficult. They can be very tricky when they get like this but if put back in their box a bit usually come through it. I wouldn't turn him away until you have got on top of things a bit. I would also second those who say drive him a bit after he does have a break. Would rather have something driven for double the amount needed.

 

[keeperscottage]

Thank you everybody for your abundance of seriously sound advice! I'd love to reply to everyone individually but I think OH would be a bit peeved if I was sitting at my computer for the entire evening!

I forgot to mention the BUCKING!!!! Archie has a huge buck.......I was riding my daughter's 16.2hh TB (the Equine Delinquent, Archie, is 16.1hh) and whilst trotting up a hill, he let loose with the HUGEST buck, one hind foot literally missing my face by inches!

I'm inclined to think we should follow the advice of those who have suggested starting on the ground......we have access to two amazing local trainers in this respect - not cheap but if it works then it's worth it!

Mulling over the situation with my daughter this morning (who's just announced she's moving in with her gorgeous long-term, long-suffering boyfriend at the end of January - yippee!!!!), I think she's going to go down the route of "starting on the ground". Apart from anything else, this sounds the safest way of dealing with the situation!

Please keep the advice coming!

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Please also remember, you never asked any questions of this lad. Meaning, being pleasant, lovey, standing for blacksmith and leading in and out is not asking questions. I used to hear this all the time. My boy is such a pleasure, he's never done anything wrong and always does as I ask.

Well I can tell you some horses don't find the prospect of "working" something they wish to do. So they test the boundries and if it's not delt with accordingly this is the result. Also you describe his big floaty movements. People who don't know that kind of movement can be apprehensive of forward on these types of horses. So guess what, your not allowed forward you get annoyed.

There's so many little things that could have made this a now major issue. And they way you describe your guy are the horses I have come to expect will throw a wobbly. Once you make work fun, they will give and give. I quite like the ones who push boundaries from day 1 as foals because you always know what you're dealing with. In general they are the easy ones to start.

You and your daughter both need to know none of this is your fault. It initially wasn't the fault of the person you sent your horse to, but he did get away with bad behavoir and I think the horse was a bit much for said person. Best advice I can give you is to stop messing about and send this horse to someone really really good for a couple of months. H&H people seem to know some good ones. Sorry, it doesn't matter if it's a man or woman so long as you can participate in part of the process it should be fine. My husband and I do the starting as a team. Him all the groundwork and me as a rider. I also cannot tell you how much safer and nicer for the horse to have equally good ground and rider people.

We have an 8 YO never been handled much former broodmare pony who was the boss of bigger horses in the field. She's 13.2, part Welsh and has had her life her way the whole time. She is as stroppy as they come. We have had to teach every basic from leading. She will take a little while. Honestly you could have her broken and riding in 4 weeks but that's not fair to her. Not charging much at the moment because we have to get her used to having a schedule and such. Being caught had to be established ect. She's wicked but she's just really annoyed that life is not all her own way anymore. She will be a diamond eventually but it just takes time.

Terri

 

[MagicMelon]

I havent read all the posts but I'd definately get his back checked (by 2 or 3 different people just in case) and also change his saddle and again get that checked by someone new. My own horse is a total superstar but last year after a winter break, I started bringing him back into work and he was "odd", he was always very willing (never misbehaved) but he seemed restless but I kept riding him, after a couple of weeks it deteriorated to the point that as soon as I got on he refused to move forward and started to rear - clearly very unhappy and very bizarre behaviour for him. I had his back checked and he was tight so after 3 sessions he was 'fixed' but she also advised she thought it had been caused by the saddle. The saddle had been fitted originally by a qualified fitter and had been checked by her since. I went to a new (WOW) saddler and was told his current saddle was badly fitting and would never have fitted him correctly (too long in the seat for a start). I was gutted as I had trusted the first saddle fitter to get it right! Anyway, I spent a fortune getting a new saddle but after sorting out his back as well - he very quickly went back to normal and has been perfect since. Dont trust just one back person or saddler is all I'm saying!

 

[Goldenstar]

I first would echo all the advice about double checking he's not in pain if you can find nothing then ...here is the hard part just give him away to someone you respect who will sort it if poss and either sell him on or keep him or PTS at home or keep him as a field ornament no horse is worth being crippled over and I speak with real experiance on this it is so much worse when you come off and have ignored the vibes that this is getting dangerous.
If you can't afford to spend him to a pro for a while perhaps someone would come to your yard and help you assess the problem and help you find a way forward it's awful I know but your daughter must trust her instincts on this don't wait till its too late to think I was right about that
Good luck

 

[TBB]

As you have checked out possible physical problems and he is ok how about a bit of hunting? Around here backward thinking youngsters usually go hunting and soon forget all about it when out with the hunt and get a good education to boot. I haven't personally had a bunch of backward thinking youngsters but I Know a couple of guys who are usually on "trouble makers" belong to other people and send them back reformed after a few weeks. I'm not suggesting that your daughter hunts him but if you are in a hunt area there is surely a "nagsman" who brings on and educates babies or does this only happen in Ireland? These guys don't usually charge as much as a professional dressage, jumping or event yard would charge.

 

[Harriephebs]

I own a Pouchka mare and she can be exactly like this, push her a bit too far and she will argue back. Ignoring it does help! His off spring do have the tendency to be quite hot but on the other hand talented, I suppose that usually comes with quirky behaviours!
He is only a baby and is going to learn off anything, good bad or indiffernt. Keep on top of it and stick with it, if you can get through the next year or so you will have a nice boy on your hands. Keep away from gadgets, dont try and trap him. I my girl was misbehaving i would long rein her for 15 mins before i got on. Keep the work interesting, mix it up slightly, dont do the same exercise over and over. I dont think hunting is going to help a hot horse probably just blow his mind. Good luck i hope it works out for you

p.s there are some other threads on here about Pouchka offspring