Really down today - sorry its really long

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Hovis_and_SidsMum

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I posted a few days ago about the problems we're having with Sidney and Hovis.
Last night it got even worse. I was at the yard on my own and was removing the haynets to make them up. Hovis has two haynets in each side of his stable - as i tried to remove the one nearest to Sidney he came at me across the top of the bars. When i went into sidneys stable he was really wound up and was lunging at the wall between him and Hovis. Almost semi rearing at it. He wouldn't let me out of the stable at first and it was pretty scary.
This morning hubby went to get the door open to the barn whilst i went to unlock the feed room. I heard the thump of Sidney hitting the wall from the feed room. Apparently again he was half rearing and was lunging frantically at Hovis.
We walked them out together (Sidney in front) and let them off at the same time - Sidney at one side of the field, Hovis at the other. All was fine. They seem ok in the field together. Just at bringing in time and in the stable.
I know its probably wet but it really got to me this morning. Its horrible and frightening to watch and worse to be in the middle of it. But more than that we bought another horse so we could hack out together. I'm wondering now if we're ever going to be able to with them like this.
It doesn't help that I'm really tired and run down or normally I wouldn't be so pathetic but I could sit here and cry. This was supposed to be fun for both of us and its turning into a nightmare.
 
Can you describe both horses in age, size, build etc to us, please so we can try to work out what the problem is?
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Oh no, don't be dishearted I'm sure theres some options here, from your post I take it the horse have bars between their stables instead of a dividing wall? If so I advise you get some plywood and box it up, we had this set up to at the last yard, some horses it suits some it doesn't, sounds like Sidney needs some space, hope it works out x
 
Can you block the bars in the stable so they can't see each other?

We use old rugs as 'curtains' as my mum's mare has personal space issues and will charge at other horses through the bars given half a chance.

What do they do when you're bringing them in together?
 
Hovis is my new boy - he's a 4 year old 15.3HH cyldesdale x. We've had him 3.5 weeks.
Sidney is 11 and a 17.2HH hanovarian. We've had him about 17 months.
Yes they do have bars between them. We've hung a rug over so they can't see each other and are talking with the YO about putting a plate over them to block it off. We're also having the bars at the fronts of the stables extended.
 
We can't bring them in together in so far as one person with two horses - Sid would kill hovis before we got down the drive.
The issue bringing them in is as soon as they see me they both assume i've come for them. Sidney then attacks Hovis.
If one person gets Sidney and I get Hovis or vice versa all is fine.
 
Sounds like sydney is used to having his mummy all to himself.

Sorry i didnt see your original post, but is there anyway you can put a stable between them?

You seem to be running the risk of getting seriously hurt!!!!
 
Right, well my take on it is that your herd at the moment is dysfunctional, and there's a continual dominance struggle going on. It seems to me that you are being counted as part of the herd...and they are disputing dominance not only over each other...but particularly over you.
IMHO you need to be the herd leader i.e. dominant over both of them and highest in the pecking order. Then they have to work out between them who is going to be the boss. I suspect it will be Sidney...but as Hovis sounds quite strongly built, he may have a good go to be boss (particularly if he was cut late, which you don't mention).
If I were you, I'd split their field in half with electric tape, building a run way so you can catch each horse and lead it out without the other being able to bite or threaten. This is for the short term, and will ensure everybody's safety.
In the stables, I'd block off the gap so they can't see each other at all. Then, when you go into the stable, if they go for you, or the wall between them you must go for them...making yourself large (shoulders square, arms up) and using 'aggressive' body language til they back down from you.
If necessary, use a whip to make them move away from you to respect your personal space (after all, you're the lead horse). Do this to both of them...until they respect you.
Then gradually let them see each other by removing a little bit of screen between stables at a time. You have to remain very dominant, and squash any aggression flat when you're there.
Eventually you will have to turn them out together...and let them argue it out...but whenever you're there, you have to be the absolute, tyrannical boss.
Sounds mean, but horses don't want you to be their friend...they want you to be their strong leader.
Hope this helps a bit.
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I absolutely whole heartedly agreee with Shilasdair on this.

So there's a seconder!

Yes dominate, at all times, it is the ONLY WAY it may sound mean to some, but not to me, you must enter the stable with a little whip and if they square up to you in any way, and even worse, rear, slap them hard across... if you were a boss mare, which is what you are to them - you would bite, rear, turn and kick, anything it takes to prove dominance. They must back off, and they will like it and feel a sense of comfort from it. (As long as they are not being bullied, which you won't be doing.)

if you don't do this, they will hurt you or each other.

I am sure, taking control and organising the field as Shilasdair says, and planning everything, all this will seem like a bad memory very soon.

Your Christmas will be a vast improvement, and all will be well. They are changeable, expecially a 4 yr old new boy.
 
I always thought George liked being in the barn set up where we were at before, but since he's been in a traditional loosebox with no bars or gaps between the stables he seems to be even happier! He really doesn't like anyone coming near his food, including his grass at times, and although he won't be nasty he gives other horses a look if they come too close, but he is quite safe to be turned out in company.He is also quite happy to hack and school with other horses, so this could well be the case with your horses.
 
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I absolutely whole heartedly agreee with Shilasdair on this.

So there's a seconder!

Yes dominate, at all times, it is the ONLY WAY it may sound mean to some, but not to me, you must enter the stable with a little whip and if they square up to you in any way, and even worse, rear, slap them hard across... if you were a boss mare, which is what you are to them - you would bite, rear, turn and kick, anything it takes to prove dominance. They must back off, and they will like it and feel a sense of comfort from it. (As long as they are not being bullied, which you won't be doing.)

if you don't do this, they will hurt you or each other.

I am sure, taking control and organising the field as Shilasdair says, and planning everything, all this will seem like a bad memory very soon.

Your Christmas will be a vast improvement, and all will be well. They are changeable, expecially a 4 yr old new boy.


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OMG Someone agrees with me?!
I have to add that being very dominant to your horses does not equate to beating them...I am the boss of my three...and every horse I've ever worked with...and I've yet to mark a horse in any way.
A lot of it is to do with reading equine body language, and having a strong physical presence yourself.
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Shilasdair - good advice. Exactly what I'd do.

You need to assert your authority and exert some discipline on them.

When I introduced my youngester to my older horse, I made sure he always got everything first so they both saw that I had established a pecking order. It also helped that they both know who gets dinner/caught first etc. I also give either one a real telling off if one snaps at the other.

Also neither gets anything at all if there is any bad behaviour. I stand staring at the naughty one until it behaves, then it gets its tea. Means they always know they have to wait for my decision, which emphasises my senior status.

Seems to have worked anyway. Good luck, I'm sure you can sort it.
 
Hey Shilasdair, I think I may have agreed with you once or twice before!! And again on this, I feel you are bang on the money.

If one of only 4 and you've only had him a couple of weeks, it might take him a little while to settle in, but I think it even more important with babies to ensure they know who's the 'leader'. Good luck!
 
Another person to agree with Shilasdair! I think you need to be tough with them but as there is a safety issue, if you can put another horse between or stop them from seeing each other then it will help. Also, there is always the issue of what they get up to in their stables when you aren't around - it'd be interesting to know if they continue to scrap or if they settle down. If they only do it when you are around then it does suggest a jealousy problem which I have had with my big dressage horses. If I have read your post correctly then they are ok when they are turned out together, it just becomes an issue when you are about eg bringing them in.

Don't worry about riding out with both horses together, if you can be dominant on the ground so they have more respect for you then under saddle it shouldn't be so much of an issue. I have seen horses that will try to kill each other if turned out together be absolutely fine when ridden in company as they know they are working, but they may ressume their battle once you get back to the yard! Obviously the common sense thing is to make sure you dont let one horse stick his nose up the others tail as you hack out as this is just asking for trouble.

Personally I wouldn't go into either stable without being armed with a dressage whip or broom. Just be careful if you do have to wallop one of them that they don't spin round & double barrell you - make sure you always have an escape route and tie them up for safety if you are doing anything in their stables. Walk into the stables with a confident, dominant manner. If one of them goes for you or the other horse, stand your ground (yep, I know this is easier said than done!) and wave your arms and shout at them, smack them with whip or whatever you have to hand if need be. Let them know that you are boss and in charge regardless of your horses own dispute between themselves.
 
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Also, there is always the issue of what they get up to in their stables when you aren't around - it'd be interesting to know if they continue to scrap or if they settle down

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A good way to know is the state of their beds - if the droppings are churned up and minced then it's a fair indication that scrapping is going on at night. If their beds are nice, with droppings in neat piles then the odds are they settle down when you're not there
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OMG for once in my life I am in complete agreement with you
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Most important is they must respect your space, especially within the stable - for safety
 
Thank you for all your advice. Will work hard on being the Boss.
Both of them are angels on their own and very very affectionate. They're also fab in the field together and with the other horses. Its just in the stables.
Sidney does need to learn that he can't be this aggressive - Hovis also needs to learn to give Sid some space (Hovis is never agressive just a tad dense).
I just feel really down about it today - must be hormones. I have this nice dream of the four of us hacking together and last night / this morning that couldn't have been much further from reality.
 
I'd have to say that I believe that 'jealousy' is a human emotion relating to our (usually) monogamous lifestyle. With horses it may be more valid to say that they are both jostling to be dominant over you (a mare in their herd) and each other, to claim reproductive rights over you. Now, I know people want to be close to their horses but.....
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Reading the original post, I'm not sure they are ok in the field as they appear to be at opposite ends....signs of a stand-off, or dominance issues as yet unresolved. And when they do want something (to come in) they are fighting.
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Thank you for all your advice. Will work hard on being the Boss.
Both of them are angels on their own and very very affectionate. They're also fab in the field together and with the other horses. Its just in the stables.
Sidney does need to learn that he can't be this aggressive - Hovis also needs to learn to give Sid some space (Hovis is never agressive just a tad dense).
I just feel really down about it today - must be hormones. I have this nice dream of the four of us hacking together and last night / this morning that couldn't have been much further from reality.

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I think you should start by changing your user name from 'Hovis and Sids' Mum' to 'Hovis and Sid's Boss' or how about 'Empress of Hovis and Sid'
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I also agree, its the only way you must be the boss or your going to get hurt! good luck im sure within a few weeks you will see a huge improvment if you just stick to it!
 
Shilasdair, I agree with what you said about jealousy , I refer to it as I think most lay-people find it easier to relate to than the whole dominance thing. In many respects there isn't that much difference between the human emotion of jealousy and dominance within the herd as both behaviours can trigger a similar aggressive response although the trigger factor is a bit different. In the way a man might thump another guy in a pub who tries it on with his girlfriend, a horse will fight to become more dominant over his rivals (& therefore have more mares int he herd) in ways such as the poster described with her horses.

I'd be very interested to have more details about how the horses interact in the field together to make a more informed opinion.
 
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Shilasdair, I agree with what you said about jealousy , I refer to it as I think most lay-people find it easier to relate to than the whole dominance thing. In many respects there isn't that much difference between the human emotion of jealousy and dominance within the herd as both behaviours can trigger a similar aggressive response although the trigger factor is a bit different. In the way a man might thump another guy in a pub who tries it on with his girlfriend, a horse will fight to become more dominant over his rivals (& therefore have more mares int he herd) in ways such as the poster described with her horses.

I'd be very interested to have more details about how the horses interact in the field together to make a more informed opinion.

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I find myself agreeing with you, despite my principles
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first of all ((hugs)).

Having a boy that chases away any horse that looks like it might be coming over to you:

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=462...medium=text_url

and having 2 boys that used to be very jealous of each other, to the point that incidents like this were very common, and this is AFTER they have been fed and turned out, I know how you feel:

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=462...medium=text_url

That vid was about 4 months after we got him.

With mine they would fight in the field because Lance had been field boss for 13yrs, then Beau came along and was trying to take over, and of course being jealous over me and OH was just another way for them to get one over on eachother.

Beau was also very nasty with any neighbouring horses, but that was about food, he was half starved when we got him, and because our stables are barn ones with bars, he had no privacy, now he still pulls faces at a neighbour, but he has stopped acting as if he is going to kill her! He just worries someone will steal his food.

It took about 4 months for him to settle with having aneighbour, some horses just dont like having another horse that near their space and their food.

Beau and Lance eventually sorted things out but Beau knows that Lance comes in first, and then Beau just sees it as his job to chase everyone else away so they cant come in next..but he will never stop me catching another horse, or anyone else catching their horse.

I wa worried at some points, espec when Beau came in like this one day because they had been fighting again and Lance had bitten him:

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but, now they are best friends, graze together, sleep together, whinny for eachother,and they dont fight anymore. Beau doesnt even challenge Lance anymore.

It took a good 6-7 months for hem to settle down though.

I really do sympathise, I wa lucky in the sense that Beau would never challenge me and would always respect my space, it was other horses he had the problem with. an he was always fine ridden with any other horse, even when he had youngsters banging into him and practically jumping on him, so dont assume they will act the same ridden.

Seriously though, you havent had him long, they Will settle down.
I never seperated mine because it wasnt practical and they are horses after all and will sort it out between themselves, and they did.
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I got my colt 2.5 weeks ago and my welsh A I've owned for 6.5 year's all the time of owning my sec A I've never seen him put his ears back at another horse and he's lived in quite a few places. since the colt came he's been evil! he puts his ears flat and gallops at him trying to bite him! I think they need time to settle together even though Bear's keeping out of it!! Someone said he might be jealous as when I'm not around he doesn't chase him, hopefully he'll start being nice soon!
 
Sorry I wasn't clear about their behaviour in the field. We let them off at seperate sides to avoid any aggro but they saunter over to each other and often graze side by side. If i go into the field to poo pick if they both ignore me all is fine. If Hovis comes up to me all is ok until Sid decides enough is enough. We have watched them for hours in the field and they are fine together. There are 5 of them in the field and the field hierachy is pretty much sorted. Sidney (as the new boss), then three other horse then Hovis. Hovis is very very much the bottom of the pecking order.
 
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Sorry I wasn't clear about their behaviour in the field. We let them off at seperate sides to avoid any aggro but they saunter over to each other and often graze side by side. If i go into the field to poo pick if they both ignore me all is fine. If Hovis comes up to me all is ok until Sid decides enough is enough. We have watched them for hours in the field and they are fine together. There are 5 of them in the field and the field hierachy is pretty much sorted. Sidney (as the new boss), then three other horse then Hovis. Hovis is very very much the bottom of the pecking order.

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I'd get the dominance thing sorted pretty quickly...unless you plan to have foals with either of them
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