magic14339
Well-Known Member
I would find a massive menage and have someone on the ground encouraging him forward with a lungewhip!!
Really Frustrated with Napping Teaching a horse to gallop?
- Thread starter BAYSCAN
- Start date
Lou_Lou123
Well-Known Member
I have a horse who can be similar to yours sometimes. When I first got him he was very nappy and shows were impossible as he would not even go from the lorry to the warm up and going into the ring was even worse. So I hacked him on his own for ages, and at first he was spinning all the time. As his confidence grew he got much better, but even now if he doesn't regularly hack alone he's a pain. Like this week I tried to hack him alone as he has been accompanying another youngster for a few weeks and he was a nightmare.
He tends to get very stressed if you are too tough on him and so I tend to be a bit softer with him than I might otherwise be, once he is stressed he can't concentrate. I have been taking him up a gallop over the last couple of weeks for fitness and to get him more forward thinking. The first time we followed some racehorses going for a steady canter and as they went away he just stood at the bottom leaping around, even though I had given him the reins and used my leg to tell him to follow, then once he was going he was spooking and generally going up and down. So I took him on his own for a few days and just walked him up at first until he could do that without spinning, then trotting, then canter, and gradually building up speed as his confidence increased. As your horse is young, just taking it slowly and introducing new things like the gallop slowly until he is confident and then working on speed/forwardness later might help as once he has more confidence then he might be happier to do what you want him to.
I also took my horse draghunting last winter, which did much more for his forwardness than the gallop. He has been much better on the whole since then in his attitude in general.
I bought my horse as a 5yr old and two years ago and as he's been slow to mature (mostly mentally) it has taken me this long to have a horse that I can start to do something with, so just keep persevering!
He tends to get very stressed if you are too tough on him and so I tend to be a bit softer with him than I might otherwise be, once he is stressed he can't concentrate. I have been taking him up a gallop over the last couple of weeks for fitness and to get him more forward thinking. The first time we followed some racehorses going for a steady canter and as they went away he just stood at the bottom leaping around, even though I had given him the reins and used my leg to tell him to follow, then once he was going he was spooking and generally going up and down. So I took him on his own for a few days and just walked him up at first until he could do that without spinning, then trotting, then canter, and gradually building up speed as his confidence increased. As your horse is young, just taking it slowly and introducing new things like the gallop slowly until he is confident and then working on speed/forwardness later might help as once he has more confidence then he might be happier to do what you want him to.
I also took my horse draghunting last winter, which did much more for his forwardness than the gallop. He has been much better on the whole since then in his attitude in general.
I bought my horse as a 5yr old and two years ago and as he's been slow to mature (mostly mentally) it has taken me this long to have a horse that I can start to do something with, so just keep persevering!
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hacking - he is excellent following - ha - but naps onto the other horse if asked to lead.
So I hack him on his own - and he is spooky but he will go - all beit very tense and reluctantly and if something REALLY frightens him he will spin around but he doesn't go to take off for home - he feels like he wants to but just doesn't let go!
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Have his eyes been checked (and double checked). I had one like this and it turned out to be cataracts that vets had missed.
Hacking - he is excellent following - ha - but naps onto the other horse if asked to lead.
So I hack him on his own - and he is spooky but he will go - all beit very tense and reluctantly and if something REALLY frightens him he will spin around but he doesn't go to take off for home - he feels like he wants to but just doesn't let go!
[/ QUOTE ]
Have his eyes been checked (and double checked). I had one like this and it turned out to be cataracts that vets had missed.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
jennystreek
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this in part, but some horses do have so much more will power than others. Easy in principle to do all of the above, but sometimes it just doesnt work, despite how many pro's are involved.
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with this in part, but some horses do have so much more will power than others. Easy in principle to do all of the above, but sometimes it just doesnt work, despite how many pro's are involved.
Joss
Well-Known Member
Poor you, what an absolute pain in the a**e. Stick at it for a bit longer seeing as your horse is only young. Try to do as much as you possibly can in company with a really nice lead horse. Whether walk, trot, cantering or galloping try to get it so that your horse will stay 1/2 length up on the other horse. Make him think he is winning races. This is how you teach a racehorse to gallop, especially a slightly lazy one. Like anything else it takes a while to teach a horse to gallop, gradually build it up.
BUT, if you are not winning. Dont stick at it forever, do try someone else on it but dont waste a whole chunk of your life & a whole load of money on a horse that wont go.
We have had 2 like this. One improved significantly & did eventually do a BE Novice, which was as far as it would ever go & then sold to an older lady for local undemanding stuff & lots of loving & is still having a happy time aged 25.
The other eventually (I am talking about 4 years later once it was an 8 year old) was found to have something very wrong with it which showed up on Scintigraphy & nothing else & promptly retired. However, neither turned into wonderful forward going horses.
BUT, if you are not winning. Dont stick at it forever, do try someone else on it but dont waste a whole chunk of your life & a whole load of money on a horse that wont go.
We have had 2 like this. One improved significantly & did eventually do a BE Novice, which was as far as it would ever go & then sold to an older lady for local undemanding stuff & lots of loving & is still having a happy time aged 25.
The other eventually (I am talking about 4 years later once it was an 8 year old) was found to have something very wrong with it which showed up on Scintigraphy & nothing else & promptly retired. However, neither turned into wonderful forward going horses.
Weezy
Well-Known Member
QR:
He sounds rather like Ted when I got him (although he never reared/bucked) - he didn't really go forwards, he was absolutely on alert 100% of the time, he didn't respect the leg, he spooked and planted a LOT - all out hacking, so what have I been doing with him for the last 9 months - HACKING and lots of it, in company. He is now learning that he can go in front, albeit not as willingly as I would like but he is getting there. I have spent 9 months trying to give him confidence in himself - oh he has always been happy to go into a ring and jump a round, but he was seriously lacking in self confidence. Only yesterday arvo I tried to take him out in hand for some grass - nope, he couldn't relax and do it, he just doesn't have it in him bless his soul!
So, actually I will say STOP trying to battle with him alone, find yourself a really good hacking partner and get out and start giving him confidence. Ted even now still only wants to follow, but he has started to accept to go up alongside if I like and as I said, he will go in front now (so long as it is somewhere he knows
) and I spent the summer teaching him to open his frame and learn to gallop - it is an ongoing project but he is getting it!
As for hunting - entirely up to you, it put Ted back a LOT, he couldn't cope, took one look at the field and crabbed/napped/broncked in the other direction
I tried twice and admitted defeat as it was actually ruining the trust he had put in me.
Beating him has never worked - even if he plants you can beat the proverbial out of him and he will just stand there and take it, so not something I do, but a quick smack with a kick when I feel him about to nap DOES help - it really is all in the timing, but it takes time to know when that is.
BTW, Ted is now 9!
He sounds rather like Ted when I got him (although he never reared/bucked) - he didn't really go forwards, he was absolutely on alert 100% of the time, he didn't respect the leg, he spooked and planted a LOT - all out hacking, so what have I been doing with him for the last 9 months - HACKING and lots of it, in company. He is now learning that he can go in front, albeit not as willingly as I would like but he is getting there. I have spent 9 months trying to give him confidence in himself - oh he has always been happy to go into a ring and jump a round, but he was seriously lacking in self confidence. Only yesterday arvo I tried to take him out in hand for some grass - nope, he couldn't relax and do it, he just doesn't have it in him bless his soul!
So, actually I will say STOP trying to battle with him alone, find yourself a really good hacking partner and get out and start giving him confidence. Ted even now still only wants to follow, but he has started to accept to go up alongside if I like and as I said, he will go in front now (so long as it is somewhere he knows
As for hunting - entirely up to you, it put Ted back a LOT, he couldn't cope, took one look at the field and crabbed/napped/broncked in the other direction
Beating him has never worked - even if he plants you can beat the proverbial out of him and he will just stand there and take it, so not something I do, but a quick smack with a kick when I feel him about to nap DOES help - it really is all in the timing, but it takes time to know when that is.
BTW, Ted is now 9!
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Sorry but if it doesnt look right in the field or loose schooling, and you say it is all stuffy, then surely that must mean that there is something severely wrong, physically??
If the horse looked OK and normal in the field then I would say its a mental problem, but the fact that the horse looks so wrong and odd in the field just speaks volumes.
I know that youve said that youve had every physical check going, but have you really visited the very best vets?? and dentists??
So many vets/physios/dentists out there have very different skills and you do have to locate and find the right person for your horse. some vets dont see what other vets will see. Likewise with dentists..
What area are you in? Maybe someone on here could suggest a really good performance vet to go and see?
If the horse looked OK and normal in the field then I would say its a mental problem, but the fact that the horse looks so wrong and odd in the field just speaks volumes.
I know that youve said that youve had every physical check going, but have you really visited the very best vets?? and dentists??
So many vets/physios/dentists out there have very different skills and you do have to locate and find the right person for your horse. some vets dont see what other vets will see. Likewise with dentists..
What area are you in? Maybe someone on here could suggest a really good performance vet to go and see?
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
But by all accounts at the moment, she is the only one riding him, and she is scared of him hence the domination on the horses part.
I really do think she needs someone else on top for awhile, which will help her own confidence too.
I really do think she needs someone else on top for awhile, which will help her own confidence too.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm, i might say this if i knew the horse already (i told exactly the same to a mate by email last week, told her to that her little git was taking the pee and trying to train her ("if i do this, you'll stop asking me to do that") to call his bluff, and she picked her battle in the school at the weekend, got him through it, and he's going forward beautifully now, not spinning or napping any more)
BUT
in this case, we don't know the horse. OP has said this horse is stuffy even out in the field.
if he is genuinely worried about going out in front (bearing in mind he is still a baby) then beating him will just convince him that he was right to be worried, and also that you the rider are NOT on his side. not all horses are as simple as you make it sound - i agree that a pee-taking git needs a good determined rider and a good smack, but sometimes there are other things going on.
it's that crucial difference between "i can't" and "i shan't" go forward, sometimes it's really difficult to tell which the horse is saying, as the symptoms are so similar, but the correct responses are miles apart.
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
hmmm, i might say this if i knew the horse already (i told exactly the same to a mate by email last week, told her to that her little git was taking the pee and trying to train her ("if i do this, you'll stop asking me to do that") to call his bluff, and she picked her battle in the school at the weekend, got him through it, and he's going forward beautifully now, not spinning or napping any more)
BUT
in this case, we don't know the horse. OP has said this horse is stuffy even out in the field.
if he is genuinely worried about going out in front (bearing in mind he is still a baby) then beating him will just convince him that he was right to be worried, and also that you the rider are NOT on his side. not all horses are as simple as you make it sound - i agree that a pee-taking git needs a good determined rider and a good smack, but sometimes there are other things going on.
it's that crucial difference between "i can't" and "i shan't" go forward, sometimes it's really difficult to tell which the horse is saying, as the symptoms are so similar, but the correct responses are miles apart.
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, but you are making the assumption that the OP is unable to do any of the above. Personally I would not make that assumption unless I had seen her/him ride. This situation does not seem as clear cut as a horse just taking the p*** considering he seems wrong in the field also.
It would be easy to make an assement if you saw horse and rider working together and realised that rider was weak, or inexperienced and horse was taking the mick, but when in an nternet situation, you always have to err on the side of caution (and on the side of the horse in case it IS a physical problem).
To just say "Whack him" without knowing the whole story is a bit irresponsible IMO.
Ummm there is only one thing wrong with this horse, and that is HE IS RIDING YOU!!! He dictates everything, ask for more pressure in the form of work and he tells you in no to certain terms to 'get lost'.
I am sick to death of everyone always blaming pysical problems.... of course this does happen but not as often as one may like to believe....
Work him on the ground as suggested above, long rein him and if he doesnt go forward wack him!!! when he gets the message about freely moving forward happily with you on the ground, then progress onto your ridden work.
Personally, i would find yourself a proper nagsman to help you, like a good national hunt jockey, someone with a bit of balls.
It is no good turning your horse away to come right, he won't, everyting he does at the moment you have taught him and he won't forget it, he needs compleately re educating with someone pretty dominant, his actions are very controlling atm he will be ruined if this carries on.
Good luck with him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, but you are making the assumption that the OP is unable to do any of the above. Personally I would not make that assumption unless I had seen her/him ride. This situation does not seem as clear cut as a horse just taking the p*** considering he seems wrong in the field also.
It would be easy to make an assement if you saw horse and rider working together and realised that rider was weak, or inexperienced and horse was taking the mick, but when in an nternet situation, you always have to err on the side of caution (and on the side of the horse in case it IS a physical problem).
To just say "Whack him" without knowing the whole story is a bit irresponsible IMO.
TarrSteps
Well-Known Member
But this horse doesn't look right even when he's not being ridden. I'm not saying another approach won't help, just saying if a horse displays a behaviour on it's own, not under pressure, I'd be far more likely to think it's not just a training issue. That said, I've seen horses start to look wrong on their own time, only to be substantially improved when their ridden/behavioural issues are solved.
Anyway, leaving that out . . .can I ask how, exactly, the horse is bred?
And have you had him assessed by someone who specialises in problem horses, such as the Australian fellow mentioned or daisychain or similar? It might be helpful to have the input of someone who looks are such horses on a daily basis and might see patterns others would miss.
Anyway, leaving that out . . .can I ask how, exactly, the horse is bred?
And have you had him assessed by someone who specialises in problem horses, such as the Australian fellow mentioned or daisychain or similar? It might be helpful to have the input of someone who looks are such horses on a daily basis and might see patterns others would miss.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but you are making the assumption that the OP is unable to do any of the above. Personally I would not make that assumption unless I had seen her/him ride. This situation does not seem as clear cut as a horse just taking the p*** considering he seems wrong in the field also.
It would be easy to make an assement if you saw horse and rider working together and realised that rider was weak, or inexperienced and horse was taking the mick, but when in an nternet situation, you always have to err on the side of caution (and on the side of the horse in case it IS a physical problem).
To just say "Whack him" without knowing the whole story is a bit irresponsible IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
hear hear, that's what i wish i'd said!
Ok, but you are making the assumption that the OP is unable to do any of the above. Personally I would not make that assumption unless I had seen her/him ride. This situation does not seem as clear cut as a horse just taking the p*** considering he seems wrong in the field also.
It would be easy to make an assement if you saw horse and rider working together and realised that rider was weak, or inexperienced and horse was taking the mick, but when in an nternet situation, you always have to err on the side of caution (and on the side of the horse in case it IS a physical problem).
To just say "Whack him" without knowing the whole story is a bit irresponsible IMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
hear hear, that's what i wish i'd said!
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
[quote
hear hear, that's what i wish i'd said!
[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like we were both thinking the same thing and both posted at the same time!!
hear hear, that's what i wish i'd said!
[/ QUOTE ]
jennystreek
Well-Known Member
i agree too!
think the OP must feel frustrated enough as it is without having it implied that its all down to her...
think the OP must feel frustrated enough as it is without having it implied that its all down to her...
kit279
Well-Known Member
I would send him to a pro - not just any old pro but an old-fashioned experienced nagsman that can get a feeling for whether the horse is in pain or has a bad attitude. How is he bred? A dressage warmblood that doesn't really gallop naturally but bounces up and up rather than flattening and going for it like a TB is just doing as his conformation and breeding allow him. Hunting can be the making of them but you want to put someone who's not lost confidence in him on for his first few times. No point going if you're worried he'll nap and rear and misbehave - inevitably that will happen if the rider is very worried!
Whereabouts in the country are you? I might be able to recommend someone.
Whereabouts in the country are you? I might be able to recommend someone.
SpruceRI
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
We had a mare like this, she never gave any more than she wanted and if you put her under any pressure with the leg/whip she would reverse/buck/kick out very dramatically, nothing made her move forwards, infact it all just made her worse. Eventually we got to the bottom off it by screaming at the top of our lungs (nothing in particular just as loud as possible from all directions)
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a Welsh Cob gelding years ago and he was very much as you describe your mare. He was 7yrs old when I got him and I swear he never took the handbrake off !
Hacking alone was a nightmare because he'd get so far - usually off the main road and then REFUSE to move. Well, buck and spin but not go FORWARDS, even if I got off and tried to lead (drag) him.
Discovered that shouting and growling at him was the only thing that worked.
Same when we were show jumping in the early days. He was an absolute arse. And then one day, he decided he wasn't going to be an arse anymore
And shouting at him wasn't required!!!!
He would still go no faster in an open field/beach/XC wherever, than a collected canter, but could seriously move when show jumping and seemed to enjoy being 'thrown around' in a jump off !!!
We had a mare like this, she never gave any more than she wanted and if you put her under any pressure with the leg/whip she would reverse/buck/kick out very dramatically, nothing made her move forwards, infact it all just made her worse. Eventually we got to the bottom off it by screaming at the top of our lungs (nothing in particular just as loud as possible from all directions)
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a Welsh Cob gelding years ago and he was very much as you describe your mare. He was 7yrs old when I got him and I swear he never took the handbrake off !
Hacking alone was a nightmare because he'd get so far - usually off the main road and then REFUSE to move. Well, buck and spin but not go FORWARDS, even if I got off and tried to lead (drag) him.
Discovered that shouting and growling at him was the only thing that worked.
Same when we were show jumping in the early days. He was an absolute arse. And then one day, he decided he wasn't going to be an arse anymore
He would still go no faster in an open field/beach/XC wherever, than a collected canter, but could seriously move when show jumping and seemed to enjoy being 'thrown around' in a jump off !!!
BAYSCAN
Member
Thankyou so much for all the replies!!!
But this just highlights how much the advice is contradictory.
There are some really interesting things to think about here!
For those who asked sorry he is classed as 6 now (not 5 - although not had his birthday yet) - i keep forgetting about it being January 2010! I am in Cheshire also (I will PM re: the Australian guy!!)
He is 17.1 by Jazz out of a burgraff(?) sjing mare line (so quite sharp)!
I am not losing confidence on him - as much as losing faith - that isn't specifically faith in him as much as I just don't know what to do for the best.
I am not scared of really laying into him - but it is something I don't particularly want to do if I don't have to - purely because I feel absolutely awful about it - because he gets very worried then.
Please do not think he doesn't do anything but nap - like i say he will go around in an outline walk/trot/canter good lateral work, SI, travers etc... but I feel all his work is 'tainted' because he never truly lets go. He is good in the mouth and good down the rein.
It is the canter which is the most affected because I can improve the trot through trot/canter transtions. There is nothing 'wrong' with it per se, he just holds himself back - making him a bit mincey.
This has improved a lot over time, but i just feel like although it is better he is still not letting go, not really! I feel though if I could could get him to just gallop, just go - we would have cracked it!!
I have tried turning him away for a couple of months initally when he started rearing really badly - and it didn't really make much difference. But we have sorted that out pretty much and he doesn't rear hardly at all now.
I feel as though u are right when you say he is dictating what we can do / which I suppose he is in a way - but I don't know whether it is better to almost lynch him at the first sign of a backward thought - knowing that this will prob make him nap quicker or just ignore him and let him sit behind the leg and then say do a transition when i feel i may get him to actually react in a forward manner! i.e. do you work with what you've got, or try and change the way he behaves?
I suppose ultimately I don't know whether to make him listen or coax him round to my way of thinking - I have been coaxing him, asking a bit more, a bit more but I'm always hoping he complies! sometimes he does just turn round and tell me to stick it!!!
He is wimpish! I don't know whether hunting would be the best as he is so hard to sit on as he is like a tense wriggly worm - he can canter quite quickly (but not openly) and holds himself in a way that enables him to stop dead! Sometimes he bangs on the breaks but is traveling so fast can't stop in one go and bounces forward one stride - with his legs totally rigid. Also, I have worked very hard to get him to the point where another horse can pass us in the school - and we can actually carry on - whilst they work around us. I would hate to take him hunting and then he won't leave the other horses again!!
He doesn't look funny or off in the field - he looks fine - happy etc, but I was just saying I have never seen him really have a good blast - he gets full of himself and bucks and bounces, but I was just meaning that even loose in that environment with no pressure he still moves forward (in canter) in a way that enables him to ultimately stop - or spin if he wants to.
Also, thats why long reining won't help that much cos he will go forwards in that kind of situation, but its just the 'opening up' going 'freely' forwards that we have the issues with - when u try and get him to offer more/open up thats when he will nap!
I always thought I could 'open him up' through suppling work - which has worked to a point - but he is still always holding himself back
But this just highlights how much the advice is contradictory.
There are some really interesting things to think about here!
For those who asked sorry he is classed as 6 now (not 5 - although not had his birthday yet) - i keep forgetting about it being January 2010! I am in Cheshire also (I will PM re: the Australian guy!!)
He is 17.1 by Jazz out of a burgraff(?) sjing mare line (so quite sharp)!
I am not losing confidence on him - as much as losing faith - that isn't specifically faith in him as much as I just don't know what to do for the best.
I am not scared of really laying into him - but it is something I don't particularly want to do if I don't have to - purely because I feel absolutely awful about it - because he gets very worried then.
Please do not think he doesn't do anything but nap - like i say he will go around in an outline walk/trot/canter good lateral work, SI, travers etc... but I feel all his work is 'tainted' because he never truly lets go. He is good in the mouth and good down the rein.
It is the canter which is the most affected because I can improve the trot through trot/canter transtions. There is nothing 'wrong' with it per se, he just holds himself back - making him a bit mincey.
This has improved a lot over time, but i just feel like although it is better he is still not letting go, not really! I feel though if I could could get him to just gallop, just go - we would have cracked it!!
I have tried turning him away for a couple of months initally when he started rearing really badly - and it didn't really make much difference. But we have sorted that out pretty much and he doesn't rear hardly at all now.
I feel as though u are right when you say he is dictating what we can do / which I suppose he is in a way - but I don't know whether it is better to almost lynch him at the first sign of a backward thought - knowing that this will prob make him nap quicker or just ignore him and let him sit behind the leg and then say do a transition when i feel i may get him to actually react in a forward manner! i.e. do you work with what you've got, or try and change the way he behaves?
I suppose ultimately I don't know whether to make him listen or coax him round to my way of thinking - I have been coaxing him, asking a bit more, a bit more but I'm always hoping he complies! sometimes he does just turn round and tell me to stick it!!!
He is wimpish! I don't know whether hunting would be the best as he is so hard to sit on as he is like a tense wriggly worm - he can canter quite quickly (but not openly) and holds himself in a way that enables him to stop dead! Sometimes he bangs on the breaks but is traveling so fast can't stop in one go and bounces forward one stride - with his legs totally rigid. Also, I have worked very hard to get him to the point where another horse can pass us in the school - and we can actually carry on - whilst they work around us. I would hate to take him hunting and then he won't leave the other horses again!!
He doesn't look funny or off in the field - he looks fine - happy etc, but I was just saying I have never seen him really have a good blast - he gets full of himself and bucks and bounces, but I was just meaning that even loose in that environment with no pressure he still moves forward (in canter) in a way that enables him to ultimately stop - or spin if he wants to.
Also, thats why long reining won't help that much cos he will go forwards in that kind of situation, but its just the 'opening up' going 'freely' forwards that we have the issues with - when u try and get him to offer more/open up thats when he will nap!
I always thought I could 'open him up' through suppling work - which has worked to a point - but he is still always holding himself back
Mickyjoe
Well-Known Member
I will say again - check his eyes. You might be surprised..
It is one last physical thing to check anyway and if there was something there it could definitely make him wimpish about going away from horses on his own or generally going forward, especially in unfamiliar surroundings.
It is one last physical thing to check anyway and if there was something there it could definitely make him wimpish about going away from horses on his own or generally going forward, especially in unfamiliar surroundings.
BAYSCAN
Member
Thanks MickeyJo - he has had them checked before - but I will get the vet to check again because it won't do any harm to him, and just confirm the vets belief that I am some kind of horsey hypochondriac!!
moneypit1
Well-Known Member
I haven't read all the replies tbh. From what you have said I would say that this horse lacks the confidence to go forward. I do not think he is being deliberately 'naughty', horses don't think like that. I do not know how much long lining you did in his original breaking but think this can only help the situation now. Go back to the lines until he is going forward freely. I found with one of my particularly nappy youngsters (so much so that we nicknamed him pampers!
) that making a right old noise when he napped helped. As soon as he took one step forward I sat still and quiet as his reward. Giving a quick smack each side of the backside will sometimes work, if it doesn't STOP, a good beating will get you nowhere and will just make the situatioin worse. It is difficult but don't give up yet. Good luck to you and keep us informed of your progress. x
JustMe22
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
We had a mare like this, she never gave any more than she wanted and if you put her under any pressure with the leg/whip she would reverse/buck/kick out very dramatically, nothing made her move forwards, infact it all just made her worse. Eventually we got to the bottom off it by screaming at the top of our lungs (nothing in particular just as loud as possible from all directions) She shot forward like a rocket, so we then shut up and praised her, next time she started feeling sluggish/slightly backward we started screaming again, and off she went again!!
For about 2 weeks we used purely the voice (very loudly!) to get her to move, no leg/stick was used at all. She improved so quickly and then we started introducing legs again, screaming when she backed off the pressure, etc....
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'd forgotten about that..I rode a warmblood for a while who used to back off the leg and plant, and start getting silly and shouting at him worked too. He was all big and brave and thiking he was intimidating but as soon as you shouted or even growled
(heheh yes I growled) he went forward...
We had a mare like this, she never gave any more than she wanted and if you put her under any pressure with the leg/whip she would reverse/buck/kick out very dramatically, nothing made her move forwards, infact it all just made her worse. Eventually we got to the bottom off it by screaming at the top of our lungs (nothing in particular just as loud as possible from all directions) She shot forward like a rocket, so we then shut up and praised her, next time she started feeling sluggish/slightly backward we started screaming again, and off she went again!!
For about 2 weeks we used purely the voice (very loudly!) to get her to move, no leg/stick was used at all. She improved so quickly and then we started introducing legs again, screaming when she backed off the pressure, etc....
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'd forgotten about that..I rode a warmblood for a while who used to back off the leg and plant, and start getting silly and shouting at him worked too. He was all big and brave and thiking he was intimidating but as soon as you shouted or even growled
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Right firstly i would like to say, at no point did i say 'beat him up'.... I said wack him if he doesnt go forward on the long lines...
As the poster pointed out the horse does go forward well when it has another horse in front, so yes it is taking the pee.
Sometimes it isnt about beating a horse up, and i am not in the habit of doing this... It is about sitting there and quietly knowing in your mind that the horse is going to comply and getting their mind set weakening so you are able to work them.
You have to be very confident to do this, and not worry about what the horse will do, if you get on a horse and think shite im a bit nervous, you sub conciously back off, even if you think you are riding him forward!!!!
Why is everyone assuming im saying that he needs beating to death?
I have seen horses like yours time and time again, and sometimes they are very tricky to get right. IMH i would get someone to help you.
As the poster pointed out the horse does go forward well when it has another horse in front, so yes it is taking the pee.
Sometimes it isnt about beating a horse up, and i am not in the habit of doing this... It is about sitting there and quietly knowing in your mind that the horse is going to comply and getting their mind set weakening so you are able to work them.
You have to be very confident to do this, and not worry about what the horse will do, if you get on a horse and think shite im a bit nervous, you sub conciously back off, even if you think you are riding him forward!!!!
Why is everyone assuming im saying that he needs beating to death?
I have seen horses like yours time and time again, and sometimes they are very tricky to get right. IMH i would get someone to help you.
BAYSCAN
Member
Hi daisychain!
I really appreciate your help and advice!
I do not think you are saying beat him up at all!! I know exactly what you mean - about having the mindset that he will comply! But when you really boss him and make him go - he does go - but gets quite frightened and the tension then stops him 'letting go' properly anyway - hence my dilemma! He will go forward its just the way he does which is the problem!
That is why I came on here - because I have tried to get help of different people and they all recommend different approaches to this problem! I just wondered if anyone had managed to overcome this type of horse - cos I figured there must be other horses that have natures like his.
I really appreciate your help and advice!
I do not think you are saying beat him up at all!! I know exactly what you mean - about having the mindset that he will comply! But when you really boss him and make him go - he does go - but gets quite frightened and the tension then stops him 'letting go' properly anyway - hence my dilemma! He will go forward its just the way he does which is the problem!
That is why I came on here - because I have tried to get help of different people and they all recommend different approaches to this problem! I just wondered if anyone had managed to overcome this type of horse - cos I figured there must be other horses that have natures like his.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Thankyou Bayscan!
The one horsei have at the moment slightly reminds me of your last post, he can either be behind the leg and threatening to buck lol! Or like yours gets tense and shoots off round the school!
I think once you get them going forward properly then its really important to still wrap your leg round them, just to say im still here and im not going!!!
I remember years ago having a lesson on a very forward horse which you could hardly dare put your leg on, and the trainer said wrap your leg on and ignore her, which i did and eventually she almost looked at my leg as security rather than rushing off from.
So prob from your point of view if he is going forward, keep that leg on and keep working through that tension.
Do tons of long lining, and get him very obedient to your voice, and insist he complies with you.
Richard Maxwell always goes back to ground work, he says if there not doing it properly on the ground you have no chance when your on top!! Its very true.
The one horsei have at the moment slightly reminds me of your last post, he can either be behind the leg and threatening to buck lol! Or like yours gets tense and shoots off round the school!
I think once you get them going forward properly then its really important to still wrap your leg round them, just to say im still here and im not going!!!
I remember years ago having a lesson on a very forward horse which you could hardly dare put your leg on, and the trainer said wrap your leg on and ignore her, which i did and eventually she almost looked at my leg as security rather than rushing off from.
So prob from your point of view if he is going forward, keep that leg on and keep working through that tension.
Do tons of long lining, and get him very obedient to your voice, and insist he complies with you.
Richard Maxwell always goes back to ground work, he says if there not doing it properly on the ground you have no chance when your on top!! Its very true.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As the poster pointed out the horse does go forward well when it has another horse in front, so yes it is taking the pee.
[/ QUOTE ]
hmm, sorry, i disagree with this.
following another horse = being part of the herd. going out in front or alone, with just rider on top, requires a lot more courage, and you can't always create courage by being firm. it depends on the individual horse's mindset, some need reassurance and baby-steps - with that type, being firm will just make them fight the rider instead of confronting their fear.
dc, i know what you mean, and i've got a lot of nappy horses going by being black/white with them and very determined, but it isn't a cure-all, and this horse sounds as if it might well have other things going on, since OP said he doesn't 'let go' in the field etc.
As the poster pointed out the horse does go forward well when it has another horse in front, so yes it is taking the pee.
[/ QUOTE ]
hmm, sorry, i disagree with this.
following another horse = being part of the herd. going out in front or alone, with just rider on top, requires a lot more courage, and you can't always create courage by being firm. it depends on the individual horse's mindset, some need reassurance and baby-steps - with that type, being firm will just make them fight the rider instead of confronting their fear.
dc, i know what you mean, and i've got a lot of nappy horses going by being black/white with them and very determined, but it isn't a cure-all, and this horse sounds as if it might well have other things going on, since OP said he doesn't 'let go' in the field etc.
Daisychain
Well-Known Member
Read my last but one post Kerry! I have said it is about sitting there quietly!
Ultimately it is about finding what makes them tick, but you know yourself your not going to get that if your feeling unsure yourself!!!!
Ultimately it is about finding what makes them tick, but you know yourself your not going to get that if your feeling unsure yourself!!!!
AmyMay
Situation normal
[ QUOTE ]
He is 17.1
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find that there is your answer. Plain and simple. He's a young horse. Big - and won't be matured for another 2 or 3 years. Physically and mentally you're going to be in for the long haul.
Take the foot off the gas, let him mature and and don't be tempted to rush him.
He is 17.1
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you'll find that there is your answer. Plain and simple. He's a young horse. Big - and won't be matured for another 2 or 3 years. Physically and mentally you're going to be in for the long haul.
Take the foot off the gas, let him mature and and don't be tempted to rush him.
CPW
Well-Known Member
I haven't read all the replies to your post yet as I was so desperate to respond - you have described my horse to a T, although he is 13 year old Trakehner - after four long years I have retired him and am looking to put him out on loan as a hack (luckily he is very good to hack!).
I have spent so much time, effort, mental and physcial emotion on this horse and after loads of treatments/referrals/chiros/professionals he is only very slightly better.
There is something wrong with my horse and I have to say I am inclined to think there is something wrong with yours - although it hasn't been picked up on yet.
Anyhow, even if there is nothing wrong and he has this mentality it will stick and be extremely difficult to get rid off.
I have been put off warmbloods for life - although I love them, you have to pick them for their mentality as lots of them have bads ones!
At the end of the day, for any job, they have to want to do it and enjoy it and be trainable with it, your not asking anything taxing of the horse yet and yet this is how he reacts.
I am sorry to not be more positive, it must be heartbreaking - trust me I know exactly how you feel!
I have spent so much time, effort, mental and physcial emotion on this horse and after loads of treatments/referrals/chiros/professionals he is only very slightly better.
There is something wrong with my horse and I have to say I am inclined to think there is something wrong with yours - although it hasn't been picked up on yet.
Anyhow, even if there is nothing wrong and he has this mentality it will stick and be extremely difficult to get rid off.
I have been put off warmbloods for life - although I love them, you have to pick them for their mentality as lots of them have bads ones!
At the end of the day, for any job, they have to want to do it and enjoy it and be trainable with it, your not asking anything taxing of the horse yet and yet this is how he reacts.
I am sorry to not be more positive, it must be heartbreaking - trust me I know exactly how you feel!
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
A horse I had wasn't a natural galloper. He always felt like he had the hand brake on. He didn't nap, just generally couldn't find that extra gear. He did enough to do BE intro etc. but it was tough work to keep him going all the way round. He spooked and galloped once with me and it was nothing like his usual one. I tried everything - galloping alongside another horse helped but not hugely. Sorry, I cant offer you much advice... I never sorted it. I just accepted that it was him - he was a Welsh Cob and I assumed just not built for it, much like you dont see clydesdales going full pelt very often 