Really interesting article in increasing diversity in Equestrianism (USEF focus)

[coblets]

I don't doubt that there is more than one S. Asian involved the equestrian world. I was just saying I had never met more than one, and I'm a born and raised Londoner. If you've not got some diversity among the urban-based equestrian population, then there's no hope for rural areas, which will naturally have fewer PoCs.

I'm the only Asian rider I've ever met... excluding when I rode in India and there were no white people around. Maybe their culture means they don't want to be involved with horses /s

 

[marmalade76]

I stopped being around horses mostly because being horseless meant there was no way for me to ethically ride or spend time with happy horses on the ground. So related to what teapot's been saying. Then I went to shows and was the obvious outsider so couldn't enjoy from the sidelines either. But I'm having a lot of fun applying what I learnt about R+ with horses to guinea pigs instead! Four legs, herbivorous, you can barely tell them apart.


Lol. If ethnic minorities didn't want to be involved iwht horses, no one would have heard of Ebony Horse Club. Anyway not all white people like horses too? maybe I should stop brandishing my gun forcing every white person on the street to become a groom. I don't know why the police keep telling me off for that.

I'm just one type of non-white but: my family's religion is pretty big on horses, if you go far back enough my ancestors had horses too, when I've visited India there's a few different RS in my small city, oh and tent-pegging/polo/endurance are all still thriving. SJ is big too. Horse culture isn't just in Europe. It's not just white people that can have a horsey background and want to ride.

My cousin liked riding but wasn't horsey and quit in high school. I'm still horse-mad. We're from the same cultural background.

The ethical reason is why some people give up working with horses.

Sorry to admit that I've never heard of the Ebony Riding Club ?

I suppose that I am of the opinion that if you're not from a horsey background but you really want to have contact with horses, you will find a way. I am from a horsey background but I was then dumped in foster care at 11 and as a teen, I had to find my own way of getting my horsey fix (which included doing a bit of grooming for an FBHS down the lane who had a live-in Asian student who evented). But I do appreciate that a big problem for some is location. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I understand that Asian parents are very keen for their children to do well academically, strive for good careers and might actually discourage a career in horses (whereas no one gave a monkey's about what I got upto at school).

 

[suebou]

Sports such as skiing, sailing, rowing, shooting and golf (I would guess) have exactly the same issues generally, priviledged white peoples sports

 

[teapot]

Sports such as skiing, sailing, rowing, shooting and golf (I would guess) have exactly the same issues generally, priviledged white peoples sports

The difference is I don't think those sports have many of the battles the equestrian industry has, and many shooting/golf set ups will be funded as part of wider hotels or estates. Think how many riding schools have been lost already over the years.

 

[Mule]

Part of the issue is the equestrian sports we commonly see in UK / Europe and N America are essentially culturally white European / N American .. The horse sports that are culturally associated with Indian Sub Cont, Middle and Far East don't have a following .. If we want to encourage more diversity in equestrianism then we (Caucasian white) need to broaden what we understand as equestrian sport.

That's not the case for central and South America and the middle east though.

 

[Orangehorse]

The Ebony Riding Club is one of several inner city riding schools that take children from the immediate area of all races.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of it, as it has a pretty high profile and, I think, benefitted from a large charity donation not long ago, or something like that which made it pretty famous.

But it isn't the only riding school like that.

 

[Orangehorse]

This is exactly the same sort of question there is about getting people out into the countryside and walking and seeing the National Parks, National Trust properties, etc. etc.

There was a big drive locally a few years ago to get people from different races out into the countryside. But unless you are a farmer working the land to make a living, I wonder if people really would want to walk in the countryside in, say India, when there are things out there that can kill you? I wondered if it is a cultural thing about NOT wanting to walk in the country.

As I said, it is a work in progress.

 

[j1ffy]

This is exactly the same sort of question there is about getting people out into the countryside and walking and seeing the National Parks, National Trust properties, etc. etc.

There was a big drive locally a few years ago to get people from different races out into the countryside. But unless you are a farmer working the land to make a living, I wonder if people really would want to walk in the countryside in, say India, when there are things out there that can kill you? I wondered if it is a cultural thing about NOT wanting to walk in the country.

As I said, it is a work in progress.

I can imagine various POC either holding their faces in despair or laughing hysterically at that theory. The vast majority of POC in the UK were born here, and the majority of them live in cities. I don't think that facing potentially lethal animals (other than other humans) is a factor in their lives. Would you say the same of Australians?

The sad fact is that ignorance and more explicit racism is rife outside urban areas in the UK. I've witnessed it and also heard countless stories of 'casual' racism, and called out people who have made comments in my presence - they usually hadn't even realised they'd said anything wrong (including people of 18/19 thinking the P word is ok). I have friends who don't feel comfortable in rural areas as they are 'different' and people seem to think it's ok to comment on that.

 

[LEC]

This is exactly the same sort of question there is about getting people out into the countryside and walking and seeing the National Parks, National Trust properties, etc. etc.

There was a big drive locally a few years ago to get people from different races out into the countryside. But unless you are a farmer working the land to make a living, I wonder if people really would want to walk in the countryside in, say India, when there are things out there that can kill you? I wondered if it is a cultural thing about NOT wanting to walk in the country.

As I said, it is a work in progress.

I walked up snowden this summer and it was very diverse, it actually made me really glad. Lots of kids and families from all backgrounds.

 

[Lexi_]

I can imagine various POC either holding their faces in despair or laughing hysterically at that theory. The vast majority of POC in the UK were born here, and the majority of them live in cities. I don't think that facing potentially lethal animals (other than other humans) is a factor in their lives. Would you say the same of Australians?

The sad fact is that ignorance and more explicit racism is rife outside urban areas in the UK. I've witnessed it and also heard countless stories of 'casual' racism, and called out people who have made comments in my presence - they usually hadn't even realised they'd said anything wrong (including people of 18/19 thinking the P word is ok). I have friends who don't feel comfortable in rural areas as they are 'different' and people seem to think it's ok to comment on that.

Some of the comments the Muslim Hikers group got after their Christmas Day walk to Mam Tor were pretty unpleasant. Thankfully vastly outweighed by positive support afterwards, but it’s really easy to see why people don’t feel welcome, even when in groups!

 

[AntiPuck]

This, but it's not just about seeing people like you riding at a high level. There's also something to not wanting to be the odd one out in your day-to-day life at the yard. I genuinely don't think white people recognise just how intensely white the sport is, and how potentially intimidating that can be.

This is so true.

I'm mixed white and black, and have only once been to another yard that had people the same colour than me or darker. My jaw dropped, there were around 5 or 6 brown girls there, and I couldn't believe it. I also recently saw a picture of a black woman on the cover of a horse magazine, Sandra Murphy, and again my boyfriend actually came and asked me if I was ok because I was staring at it for ages, and smiling.

When looking for a livery yard recently, I was really quite nervous beforehand about how i'd be received, especially as my current area is not super diverse in terms of race when you get out into the sticks. I deliberately took along my dad, who is far darker than I, because at least I then I could use the kind of reaction we got when pulling up as a barometer for how friendly that yard is likely to be. Thankfully I needn't have worried this time. On the whole, I have been very lucky in my horsey life racism-wise, only a few narrow-minded comments over the years.

 

[oldie48]

The main problem that I see when "diversity" is being discussed is that those doing the discussing are rarely from the "excluded" or "under-represented" groups. Being a white middle class woman, I can't speak for people of colour but having come from a typical urban working class family I have some idea of what excludes white working class urban children and that is affordable access. What enabled me to ride and own horses and to be able to give my daughter the opportunity to ride decent ponies and horses supported by good trainers was a decent disposable income. That disposable income would also have funded sailing, skiing or any of the other mainly white middle class sports that are inherently expensive. I am a simple soul and having worked in education in inner city areas with kids who were disadvantaged in all sorts of ways, the best thing to offer them is,IMHO, the opportunity of a bloody good education so they can get a decent job, have disposable income and then make their own choices and follow their own dreams. FWIW, there are a number of very expensive boarding schools where I live with a very wide ethnic mix of pupils and they all have riding clubs populated by white pupils. Perhaps certain sports are not seen as culturally appropriate even when they can be afforded?

 

[teapot]

The main problem that I see when "diversity" is being discussed is that those doing the discussing are rarely from the "excluded" or "under-represented" groups. Being a white middle class woman, I can't speak for people of colour but having come from a typical urban working class family I have some idea of what excludes white working class urban children and that is affordable access. What enabled me to ride and own horses and to be able to give my daughter the opportunity to ride decent ponies and horses supported by good trainers was a decent disposable income. That disposable income would also have funded sailing, skiing or any of the other mainly white middle class sports that are inherently expensive. I am a simple soul and having worked in education in inner city areas with kids who were disadvantaged in all sorts of ways, the best thing to offer them is,IMHO, the opportunity of a bloody good education so they can get a decent job, have disposable income and then make their own choices and follow their own dreams. FWIW, there are a number of very expensive boarding schools where I live with a very wide ethnic mix of pupils and they all have riding clubs populated by white pupils. Perhaps certain sports are not seen as culturally appropriate even when they can be afforded?

Worth remembering that many pupils at private schools, especially the big public ones can be on scholarships or access funds, regardless of race/ethnicity. So it may not necessarily be a case of choosing not to fund the sport, the parents/families may only have enough spare cash for the uniform.

For others, paying the fees each term becomes their major outgoing by sacrificing everything else in order to do so.

Can’t remember which school it was - Bryanston or Millfield perhaps that recently did a piece on one of their pupils on the riding team. Seem to remember they were from an inner city non equestrian background.

 

[Xmas lucky]

I think there is a lot of equestrians not accepting and make sure that certain people are made to feel unwanted. It’s a privilege white sport and I think it needs to changes.

 

[oldie48]

Worth remembering that many pupils at private schools, especially the big public ones can be on scholarships or access funds, regardless of race/ethnicity. So it may not necessarily be a case of choosing not to fund the sport, the parents/families may only have enough spare cash for the uniform.

For others, paying the fees each term becomes their major outgoing by sacrificing everything else in order to do so.

Can’t remember which school it was - Bryanston or Millfield perhaps that recently did a piece on one of their pupils on the riding team. Seem to remember they were from an inner city non equestrian background.

One pupil from an inner city non equestrian background really doesn't change anything except to demonstrate that tokenism is alive and well. Why is it so hard for people to accept that riding is an elitist sport and that to get to the top you need to have money or the right connections in addition to having real talent? I just don't think it's possible to counter structural racism, prejudice and inherent snobbishness by funding a few talented but disadvantaged people to achieve in an elitist sport. They just get remembered for the wrong reason, Skeete is the SJ with dreadlocks, Eddie the eagle tbh wasn't remembered for his success, Townsend's father is a milkman (no he wasn't) Pheobe Buckley was from a travelling family.

 

[teapot]

One pupil from an inner city non equestrian background really doesn't change anything except to demonstrate that tokenism is alive and well. Why is it so hard for people to accept that riding is an elitist sport and that to get to the top you need to have money or the right connections in addition to having real talent? I just don't think it's possible to counter structural racism, prejudice and inherent snobbishness by funding a few talented but disadvantaged people to achieve in an elitist sport. They just get remembered for the wrong reason, Skeete is the SJ with dreadlocks, Eddie the eagle tbh wasn't remembered for his success, Townsend's father is a milkman (no he wasn't) Pheobe Buckley was from a travelling family.

I’m not disagreeing with you at all. Just pointing out there will be exceptions to the rule - and may not actually be the only one doing so, perhaps other schools don’t feel the need to flaunt it?

You’ll also see from my others posts on this thread, that imho the sport is going to be reduced down to the very few who can afford it soon, regardless of skin colour.

 

[daffy44]

The main problem that I see when "diversity" is being discussed is that those doing the discussing are rarely from the "excluded" or "under-represented" groups. Being a white middle class woman, I can't speak for people of colour but having come from a typical urban working class family I have some idea of what excludes white working class urban children and that is affordable access. What enabled me to ride and own horses and to be able to give my daughter the opportunity to ride decent ponies and horses supported by good trainers was a decent disposable income. That disposable income would also have funded sailing, skiing or any of the other mainly white middle class sports that are inherently expensive. I am a simple soul and having worked in education in inner city areas with kids who were disadvantaged in all sorts of ways, the best thing to offer them is,IMHO, the opportunity of a bloody good education so they can get a decent job, have disposable income and then make their own choices and follow their own dreams. FWIW, there are a number of very expensive boarding schools where I live with a very wide ethnic mix of pupils and they all have riding clubs populated by white pupils. Perhaps certain sports are not seen as culturally appropriate even when they can be afforded?

I agree with a lot of this, but I think its only part of the problem, the main problem as I see it is "you have to see it to be it". If you are not white, are interested in horses, and have enough money to have lessons, you are discouraged in so many ways; if you look in magazines, almost every advert features white people (this is starting to change now, which is brilliant, but its a slow change), certainly every feature has photographed white people, if you look to the top level of equine sports on television, you see white riders, and if you go to your local riding school/livery yard the chances are you will see only white people. Add to this the old stereotypes of Lord Many Acres galloping round the countryside in hunting pink, you start to think this is not the place for me, and you look to other sports where you see yourself represented.

I do think this is starting to change, but its very slow and I totally understand why people dont even want to try, its hard to explain just how excluded these things can make you feel without anyone saying a word. I know I have said before that I was stubborn enough to ignore all this, and I was, but I do think it helped that whilst I am mixed race and I do look different, I dont look very different, at a guess I could be South American, something like that, which does make it easier for me.

 

[oldie48]

Daffy44 I'm genuinely sorry that you've felt excluded and actually can understand why you might feel like that. I used to live in a very diverse community in a big city but moved to the country 20+ years ago. I'm still shocked by how ethnocentric people are and I can't help but think that most rural communities are the same. So we have the double whammy of equestrian sports being elitist and also mainly rural based. I've also noticed that ads don't always feature white riders but honestly, I just don't think it changes much as it's only people who are already interested and involved in horses that look at the ads. I don't know what the answer is but I baulk at anything that seems "tokenism" or is designed to help sports access funding as it changes things for a few people rather than help to change society. I loved the story of Khadijah Mellah winning the Magnolia cup but she was described as the first girl to win a race wearing a hijab tbh I'm not sure it really did much for inclusion!

 

[daffy44]

Oldie48, I dont think I did feel particularly excluded, it was more that I was always aware in the back of my mind that no one looked like me, and that could feel odd. I was pony mad as lots of little girls are, and I always looked in all the pony magazines etc and it did affect me that no one looked like me, it made me question whether I could do this, but as I have said, I was so lucky in that I never experienced any racism at all from anyone involved with horses. I grew up in London, so a very multi racial city, but my experience with horses in London was entirely white, so I still had that feeling that within this horsey world that I loved so much, I was still totally unrepresented.

I can imagine that if people had been racist to me it would have been incredibly hurtful when combined with that awareness that no one looked like me. Fortunately any racism I encountered was never in the horse world, so it reinforced my belief that horses where my safe place despite what I looked like. People in the horse world only ever cared about what I could do, and never what I looked like and I absolutely loved that, but as an adult I am even more aware of how lucky I was to have such positive experiences, which allowed me to go on and make a living doing what I love.

 

[ycbm]

I think there is a lot of equestrians not accepting and make sure that certain people are made to feel unwanted.

Have you actually seen this happen?

I've never seen anything like that. I've drag hunted with a black man with very dark skin and the local riding club had a family of Asian girls competing. They were all accepted like anyone else. I completely understand that they might have felt they were unusual, because they were. But that's not because equestrianism is inherently racist, in my, white, experience, but just because it's overwhelming white. Arguably that's historically more to do with income than directly with colour.
.

 

[coblets]

Have you actually seen this happen?

I've never seen anything like that. I've drag hunted with a black man with very dark skin and the local riding club had a family of Asian girls competing. They were all accepted like anyone else. I completely understand that they might have felt they were unusual, because they were. But that's not because equestrianism is inherently racist, in my, white, experience, but just because it's overwhelming white. Arguably that's historically more to do with income than directly with colour.
.

Is being called a P*ki, as I wrote in a previous post, not an example of being made to feel unwanted?

Anyway, putting that to one side, equestrianism's not inherently racist but you'd be amazed how happily/easily white people can make you feel like an outsider. The idea that ethnic minorities just aren't interested in equestrianism, not like you white people, isn't the most welcoming thing in the world. You're (not you, but others) are implying that PoCs aren't expected to be involved (maybe not wanted?) even though the oldest breeds in the world are from northern Africa and the Middle East, polo's from Persia, nomadic tribes across Asia have far stronger ties to horses that the UK does, etc etc.

 

[ycbm]

Is being called a P*ki, as I wrote in a previous post, not an example of being made to feel unwanted?

Yes of course it is. I wasn't denying your own experience and I sincerely hope that was a very small number of stupid people. I think you say that it was only once in an equestrian context. Once too often, of course.

I asked Xmas lucky if she had seen "a lot of equestrians making sure that people were made to feel unwanted" , ie very deliberately, not by unthinking racism. Because I hadn't, and my own, white, experience of doing equestrian activities alongside people of colour was more akin to what was described by daffy.
.

 

[Orangehorse]

Having Covid I have been watching a lot of TV. On Helicopter ER, must have been filmed a while ago, they were called to a racing stable in Yorkshire where a jockey/groom aged 37 had had a suspected heart attack.
He was Indian and several of the staff gathered round to assist him were also. He recovered, doctors suggested a holiday in India and the last shot was of him riding the racehorses again.

So he must have been working at the stables for several years, and his fellow stable staff too.

My two nieces in the USA are mixed race by the way.

 

[daffy44]

Coblets I'm so sorry that people were so nasty to you.

I think its very hard for white peope to totally appreciate how an exclusively white environment can make a non white person feel, even if everyone is positive, welcoming and encouraging, just that fact that you are the only person who looks they way you do can be very uncomfortable at best, excluding and intimidating at worst.

 

[AntiPuck]

Coblets I'm so sorry that people were so nasty to you.

I think its very hard for white peope to totally appreciate how an exclusively white environment can make a non white person feel, even if everyone is positive, welcoming and encouraging, just that fact that you are the only person who looks they way you do can be very uncomfortable at best, excluding and intimidating at worst.

Very true - reminds me of reading about the concept of 'stereotype threat' for the first time, in Cordelia Fine's book, Delusions of Gender. She talks about a study whereby students completed two maths tests; one had a box for them to indicate their gender at the top, and the other didn't. The girls ended up doing worse when they had to disclose their gender, and she conciuded that being reminded of your gender reminds you of the common stereotypes associated with it, e.g. girls are bad at maths, and then being so conciously aware of the expectation that you are a certain way can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think a similar thing can happen with race/ethnicity (as well as other things); you're so painfully aware, due to past (or present!) negative experiences, as to how some others see you, that it creates a constant background level of anxiety in some situations that is very wearing.