Rearing (Apologies about the length! lol)

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CVSHotShot

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Hi all,

I need some of your fabulous advice again...

Booty finally arrived home 2weeks ago! (Havnt had a chance 2 get nice photos yet...but soon, I promise!
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Anyway, on the tuesday b4 christmas Booty was out stretching his legs and expoloring the yard while I mucked out the other Boys & i have to say he is one of the best babies I have ever worked with! He justs wonders about quietly, unlike some of the others, who I swear destroy things and cause trouble and then sit and laugh at me!

So It was almost lunch time and Booty was going back to bed 4 a while so that I could run home and get Lunch, without having to worry about people leaving gates open etc...
So I hooked leadrope onto his head collar and proceeded to walk forward (his leading was coming on very well!) we got to door of stable and he planted feet firmly in ground and refused to walk on in, with a 'Yeah rite' expression on his cute little face! I laughed and gave the rope a little tug and asked him to walk on at which point he started walking back, i 'clicked' him onwards (as thats the voice aid he has been reponding to when leading) I didnt want to pull him too hard as i know they are quite sensitive around the poll at that age, then he started shaking his head in temper and threw a front leg at me, not so much like it was meant to catch me but more like a warning. At this point I spun him round and tried entering stable at different angle, rather than walking straight in, but he was just not having any of it. I called one of the other girls in the yard to put a hand on his bum and push if neccessary, again as we got to door he reared , pawing with his front legs, I knew he wasnt scared of anything in/around stable as he usually walks in and out no problem and volentarily walks in and out when hes exploring the yard and was certinly not expressing fear in the way he usually does.
eventually he got further and further away from door and any contact with him or the rope meant he just went straight up! Threw one HUGE rear, lost his ballance and fell straight over...on2 the concrete! *cringe*
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He got up quite quickly and trotted off over to other horses stable so i assumed there could be nothing TOO serious Wrong!

How wrong I was!...
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He ate and drank virtually nothing 4 2days and just wasnt himself so I had no choice but to get the vet out...on christmas day! (poor man, he and his dad missd xmas dinner with their family!-yes the guilt was awful lol)
He did some flexion tests but he just wasnt crossing his left leg over properly, he tried to get bloods to run some tests but it just wasnt going to happen! Booty reared when he felt the first needle and freaked out, then everytime the vet tried to get near him he reared, tried the twitch, doped him and even three people couldnt hold him still for long enough to get the blood, he ended up breaking 7needles and spending two hours fighting the vet. I was terrified that if i tried to fight him when he pulled back that he would rear and fall again!

It was so horrible to watch, when you know you cant explain to him that no1 is trying to hurt him, he was just so exhausted and the vet wasnt 4 giving in (mind you he wasnt the most subtle or gentle either!) End result of that was the vet suspected he had fractured his pelvis!!

After that whole drama I gave him a few days just to settle himself, just fed, mucked out & put his rug on to keep his hind end warm etc, he was on box rest 4 a week and half a unit of painkiller & anti-inflams and is now totally back to himself, he is eating and drinkin as normal etc but still holding tail to side, which is worrying me still.

Anyway, the main point of this very long post was the rearing! more than a week on he is doing a little bit of leading in the loose box, just to try and re-establish that the pressure is not going to kill him etc etc...however i have noticed if i increase pressure slightly he panics abit and looks like he wants to go up.

Fortunatly i have not encountered nor have had expeirence with rearers, so need the help of others on this 1... Has any1 any similar experiences or can any1 advice me how to handle a rearer, tactics you use etc? some1 said it takes you to have experience with a horse that rears b4 you know when & what exactly u have to do b4 he excecutes the rear (at which point you can do nothing about it)

I have spoke to angela (his mum) and she suggested a pressure halter, which i have researched abit and quite like the sound of.

I am quite desperate to find out what to do now as i really do not want another episode
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Any advice greatfully accepted.
Many thanks...xx
 
If you're going to go the pressure halter route, get the Monty Roberts one! To be fair i think everyone should have one, as it can be used as a normal headcollar, but then if a problem arises, you can then deal with it by just attatching the rope to a different ring.

Ive also heard from several people, if a horse rears, you can smash an egg on its head and it will think its injured himself (the eggy runny bits feeling like its blood) and so wont do it again. I havent tried this though although heard it can be succesful.
Possibly only when being ridden though unless foalie is a little lad and easily reachable?
 
The best thing I found was just not to get in any situation that might provoke a rear, which isn't terribly helpful especially when you have a baby (mine was 5 and it was ridden issues so different) but I just had to avoid confrontational situations and not pick any battles I couldn't win.

Hopefully others will have some more practical advice.
 
What is Booty's history, how old? how long you had him? size breed etc?...sorry dont think i have seen your past posts.
 
Definitely think a dually halter is required!

Babies often plant themselves, so the best thing is to rock them by going backwards and forwards. Its also very good for them as they need to learn to back up anyway.

Rearing at this stage is just a reaction to pressure, unless your baby is very small you are not going to be able to haul them anywhere, so its pointless to try as you will just end up tweaking your or their backs!

Watch the DVD that comes with the halter as most babies have perfect body language skills especially if they have been out with other horses in a herd.
 
You have probably tried this, but we always carried a schooling whip with our relectant leader, stayed bt her shoulder and gave her a reminder to walk on, with the whip at her girth or just behind it. Or a friend behind, swishing a stick to make a noise (but be ready to walk on yourself
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He needs to be driven forwards every time he naps which is what the rearing is all about. I wouldnt use a pressure head collar because once again it is focussing on the head which is what he seems to be objecting to......sorry to say I would get someone behind him and next time he threatens to go up...give him a whack so he moves forwards.

This whole issue is about him not wanting to go forwards and if not dealt with now he will continue into ridden work and hurt you or himself.
 

Hmm, tricky one! Trouble with the pressue halter is that if he dosnt like pressure from a normal head coller, a pressure halter could make him worse. As you say, they are tender round the poll at that age.
Im really not too sure what to sugest. Archie is a serial rearer although, only really when being ridden. He has reared up when leading him to the field, but I have learnt to just keep my distance so he doesnt kick me when coming back down.
I do have a pressure halter and it works on one of my horses but not on Arch, nothing seems to stop him rearing unfortunatly.
 
Sparklet, if this is a yearling I really wouldn't want the first part of its training to be someone beating it with a stick!
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You have to make your horse want to be with you and feel safe with you.

Far too many babies get ruined due to rough handling and making them more frightened when all they want is a leader and a bit of comfort.
 
Who said beating with a stick
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....I'm really annoyed you have interpreted it that way......I have never beaten a horse.
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My opinion was given.....sorry if you think that a yearling rearing to the point where it tips over, fracturing its pelvis is a better way you go for it.....it needs to be driven forward not pulled that is what I was trying to say, thus I dont see how a pressure halter could work.

Bootys new mum is free to ignore my advice but she was asking for advice and that is what I have given. She is free to ignore it if she chooses but please dont exaggerate my posts to try to prove your point.
 
My Mare used to rear when I first got her. she was 6, so not a baby like yours, but she had only been broken for 8 months, so very green. I found that she did it because she did with her previous owner, and got away with murder every time. I was determined to sort it out, it took a good year, but we got there in the end just by pure patients. I wouldn't fight with her, fighting just made her 10 times worse, like you have described. I would keep the contact through the lead rope, with a monty roberts head collar firm, but not pulling, if you know what I mean and just quietly keep on asking. Some times I could be there for hours, but in the end I always got what I wanted with out a fight. As I say, in all it took about a year, But she hasn't tried for about 2 years, and she's an angel to handle now. I would recommend time patience, and quiet persistence.
 
ARGH i have just written the longest reply and pressed backspace >.< !!

ANYWAY!
I strongly advise against anyone pushing the lad from behind. Weve had our colt just over two weeks and hes now finally beginning to realise we aren't going to push him everywhere. He got very very nervous and stressed as soon as more than one person got anywhere near him.
This is doing nothing for him and will not help you in the future.

The dually headcollar will make him realise that if he does something good, the pressure will stop and that will be his reward. For example, a hold on the rope, slightly pulling just to keep the rope taught, if he gives in and steps forward, the pressure goes away and thats his reward. And also a little stroke on the head after a step forward.

Wont take him long to learn!:)
 
Also agree with Purdie. He might need a little time to realise what it is you want, or he might pick it up straight away- theyre all different, but it will all be worth it when you have a nice horse with lovely manners
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Wow, thanks for all the fast responses every1! That has all been very helpful, i think the pressure halter definatly deserves a try!
I kind of agree with you too purdy & moonwalker, i see where you are coming from! the pressure makes him panicy and he just seems to switch off, which really isnt what we want...
Dont worry sparklet & cotswoldSJ, my new years resolution is to consider every1s advice has realise every1 has different opinions etc and understand no1 sets out to cause conflict on this forum! lol
Kenzo, he is now 9mnths old and is a wamblood colt, approx 13hh at the min, i have had him for about 3weeks now, so i like to refer to this as 'troubleshooting' lmao
i have herd about the egg over the head b4 too and once heard of a jockey who smacked a whip between his horses ears everytime he reared, horibble stuff!
Thanks for help so far...any more suggestions, keep them coming! xx
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I take it Booty is a baby....(anything up to a 3yr in my books) part of it will be confusion or testing your authority which has to be expected, unfortunatly there will be times when your youngster will throw himself around and possibly injure himself but they will learn.

I personally would not use a pressure halter, not on something so young (if Booty is yearling for example) after all at this age there just getting the hang of learning to lead and basic commands, if they have not been handled from a foal. A pressue halter would be uncomfortable...painful in fact thus causing even more confusion and relectance to go forward and could cause you further problems, specially if the youngster does not understand what is fully what is expected...which takes time, patience lots of ground work and showing your authority without Booty totally resenting you for it.

You need to get Booty thinking forwards now and all through his training and this is important over the next couple of years otherwise...a backwards thinking youngster will turn into a backwards thinking horse, where napping etc will be an issue later on in there life.

When I got my horse 2 nearly 3 he'd not been taught to lead, or tied up or even been in a stable! so I had my work well and truely cut out and that included him pawing at me, rearing up at me, even doing it sneakly behind my back, I had to have eye in the back of my head as well as a hat permentatly attached too. What you have to relaise is the differecen between rearing due to confidence issues (fear) or rearing because he is objecting to your request and saying no, I'm bigger and stronger than you and will do as I jolly well like, if that is the case then you must remind him who is in charge, and if this means feeling the sharpe end of of your hand/whip (however he was 15.2 and this was after he' been taught to lead, so he was just acting a fool and being dangerous) they need to learn this is not acceptable, you'll fall out but he'll get over it and eventually learn what reaction he gets when he's out of line, but only do this if you are sure 100% that a horse is taking the mick, I think by the sounds of it, its just a training issue which is to be exepcted. Always remember to reward your baby straight away as soon as he's done as you ask and leave it at that.

But we established ground rules, trust and he had to learn to walk at my shoulder, even just slightly infront (never ever slightly behind) and once he understood what was asked it was sometimes backed up with a lunge line (not to beat him with...far from it) just a gentle swish on the back legs to teach him that when he leads, he keeps up with me at all times!, yes he didn't like it and he scowled and sulked etc, but it works. If I'd of stuck a pressure halter on him I'd of ended up in deep trouble, yes they are a great tool but a horse has to know what is expect before using them and have been taught the basics, you have to know when it is necessary to use them.
 
OK so if you want the running story :

You put halter on baby and ask it to move somewhere where its not fussed to go

Baby says no and plants

Pressure is put on, possibly accompanied by the handler looking at the baby. So the body language says go away and the pressure on the head is not nice

Result > baby backs away, and if pressure still doesn't go tries a rear to remove pressure

Now Sparklet, here's where you an I differ. I want the horse to learn there there is no pressure when its with me and to follow me as herd leader is a good thing.

CSJ way:
Handler does not face baby, uses a longer rope and pressure applied, when baby takes so much as a step forward pressure is released. Baby thinks "ah ha" moving toward the leader removes the pressure, baby is rewarded for this.

To send them on from behind, teaches baby to a) be wary of people lurking behind them with big sticks, and b) pressure = being hit which makes a flight animal even more wound up and possibly might kick out at nasty person with whip or run over handler escaping the lurking whip. Either way its not a nice way to teach your horse and will probably result in someone being hurt.

Perhaps my logic now makes more sense?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I take it Booty is a baby....(anything up to a 3yr in my books) part of it will be confusion or testing your authority which has to be expected, unfortunatly there will be times when your youngster will throw himself around and possibly injure himself but they will learn.

I personally would not use a pressure halter, not on something so young (if Booty is yearling for example) after all at this age there just getting the hang of learning to lead and basic commands, if they have not been handled from a foal. A pressue halter would be uncomfortable...painful in fact thus causing even more confusion and relectance to go forward and could cause you further problems, specially if the youngster does not understand what is fully what is expected...which takes time, patience lots of ground work and showing your authority without Booty totally resenting you for it.

You need to get Booty thinking forwards now and all through his training and this is important over the next couple of years otherwise...a backwards thinking youngster will turn into a backwards thinking horse, where napping etc will be an issue later on in there life.

When I got my horse 2 nearly 3 he'd not been taught to lead, or tied up or even been in a stable! so I had my work well and truely cut out and that included him pawing at me, rearing up at me, even doing it sneakly behind my back, I had to have eye in the back of my head as well as a hat permentatly attached too. What you have to relaise is the differecen between rearing due to confidence issues (fear) or rearing because he is objecting to your request and saying no, I'm bigger and stronger than you and will do as I jolly well like, if that is the case then you must remind him who is in charge, and if this means feeling the sharpe end of of your hand/whip, they need to learn this is not acceptable, you'll fall out but he'll get over it and eventually learn what reaction he gets when he's out of line, but only do this if you are sure 100% that a horse is taking the mick, I think by the sounds of it, its just a training issue which is to be exepcted. Always remember to reward your baby straight away as soon as he's done as you ask and leave it at that.

But we established ground rules, trust and he had to learn to walk at my shoulder, even just slightly infront (never ever slightly behind) and once he understood what was asked it was sometimes backed up with a lunge line (not to beat him with...far from it) just a gentle swish on the back legs to teach him that when he leads, he keeps up with me at all times!, yes he didn't like it and he scowled and sulked etc, but it works. If I'd of stuck a pressure halter on him I'd of ended up in deep trouble, yes they are a great tool but a horse has to know what is expect before using them and have been taught the basics, you have to know when it is necessary to use them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent post Kenzo....completely agree with you....and much better put than my post.
 
[ QUOTE ]
OK so if you want the running story :

You put halter on baby and ask it to move somewhere where its not fussed to go

Baby says no and plants

Pressure is put on, possibly accompanied by the handler looking at the baby. So the body language says go away and the pressure on the head is not nice

Result > baby backs away, and if pressure still doesn't go tries a rear to remove pressure

Now Sparklet, here's where you an I differ. I want the horse to learn there there is no pressure when its with me and to follow me as herd leader is a good thing.

CSJ way:
Handler does not face baby, uses a longer rope and pressure applied, when baby takes so much as a step forward pressure is released. Baby thinks "ah ha" moving toward the leader removes the pressure, baby is rewarded for this.

To send them on from behind, teaches baby to a) be wary of people lurking behind them with big sticks, and b) pressure = being hit which makes a flight animal even more wound up and possibly might kick out at nasty person with whip or run over handler escaping the lurking whip. Either way its not a nice way to teach your horse and will probably result in someone being hurt.

Perhaps my logic now makes more sense?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont intend to debate this with you to be honest....I dont like the way you twisted my post therefore I have lost respect for your debating style. I have offered my advice and it is clear some posters agree with what I am saying....you have presented an alternative therefore bootys new mum has plenty of advice to choose from. Only she knows the horse and she is in the best place to make the decision on what to do.

Once again you have used inflamatory language....big sticks, lurking, nasty person to prove your point and I think that is rather sad.
 
Kenzo, sounds like you really are speaking from experience there! it def does make me think twice about the pressure halter now, althought CWJ (Just laughed at your reply to sparklet! lmao) your advice is very logical! i really like the idea of making him associate coming with you as an escape from the pressure...

Lots of very different views here, very interesting to see how every1 handles so differently! xx
 
Its a baby! If it can start to understand about pressure and release and the rewards that will be given if he complies, he will happily oplige to any task you ask of him!

I cannot see how forcing anything from behind in any way, when they are this young, is teaching the poor thing anything positive. The poor things going to go into defence mode and you'll end up with a complete bloody nightmare. Its going to resent complying with anything you ask of it unless it is forced into it by being scared s**tless.
 
It is an open forum and that's my writing style

What do you think a horse thinks, especially a baby (so not an older horse taking the p*ss), when you chase them foward?

I detest violence towards youngsters, bad horses are made not bred.
 
Agree with CSJ.

This post is about a foal. It needs someone to give leadership and be trustworthy, not to bully them into something they dont understand.

This is the difference between positive and negative reinforcement.
 
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Errr rearing over backwards isnt defence mode
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Rearing is "i don't understand what you want me to do and why you want me to do it." It was just unfortunate that he fell over.

The foal needs trust to be built between itself and owner which obviously hasn't been established yet. Trust is not going to be built if it's being chased/hit/tapped/pushed from behind. It would soon learn to resent you and resent doing anything you ask of it.
 
I've dealt with a lot of babies and some naturally get it very quickly and learn to lead very well, I wouldn't worry about it too much, once Booty gets used to you he will follow you like a dog...anywhere! but if he's still a bit wild/unhandled then just him being around you, you feeding him, stoking him and brushing etc he will soon gain his confidence, you wont need to tug, he's just follow and like someone said don't pull or yank because at the learning stage you'll frighten him which will cause him to flip over.

I think everyone is right and has indeed have a fair point, its just getting it all in the right order, just to make it clear again, when I refer to teaching them to lead correctly and if need be showing your authority and using a schooling whip in your left hand (again remember to teach to lead from both sides...this is very important which will come in handy when you start lunging..in years to come) this was advice once your baby has learnt to walk and knows what is expected but then needs correcting/or driving more forwards and when dealing with a larger younster in the later stage.
As for now, if he's just a wee small yearling, you wont have any problems, dont expect too much.
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Rearing is also I intend to do as I please......and one day the horse will be fully grown and continue to do exactly that. What a shame to loose a good horse because bad manners when young were not corrected.

Horses like that tend to be the ones passed from pillar to post in adulthood because no-one can deal with their problems.

Ask yourself how the mare deals with its youngster.
 
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