Rearing in hand

Well, took her up to the Indoor School and she was a little star, we went with a friend and her trusty horse, loaded like a dream (she always does) and travelled fab (again always does).

She has never been up to this particular Indoor School before and she was initially a little spooky and looky, i took the lunge line to take the 'edge' of her to begin with and then popped on and she was a star.

I really do think the rearing in hand that she has done has been a 'freshness' and she needed to have some proper work done with her.

We have an outdoor school at my yard (which tbh is rubbish, freezes in winter and too deep in summer) and the lanes for the last 2 weeks have been like sheet ice so have been unable to hack out or get out the trailer.

If it is a combination of all of the above i am glad that she did not do it under saddle and i will see now how she is leading now that we have been out today and i am now able to start riding out again (now everything has thawed).

A massive thanks to everyone that has posted on this thread, i have read some of your experiences with interest and will be adopting a few in the future.

Once again, thanks.
 
kerilli said:
Yes, and I won't be shoved out of the way by a horse...
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Me neither, regardless of whether they are dominant with other horses or not!

BUT a horse following another across a field is not being dominant, it's being subservient imho, it's following trustingly. I have a very meek mare who loves following right behind me like a dog, she's definitely not shoving me along.
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Actually, I think dominance and leadership are rather different things for horses - and the qualities that make a horse dominant are different from those that make others want to follow. How else to explain why the horse that initiates movements in the herd and the others follow is often not the most dominant? If a horse follows a dominant, it's in spite of not because of the other horse's dominance. Horses tend to follow others that are trustworthy - hence the leader is often an older (and hence experienced and knowledgeable) mare. They are repelled not attracted by pushiness and aggression. So I try to behave in ways that inspire trust - by being calm, confident, consistent - not aggressive or pushy.

(It's easy to see why the idea that dominance is the same as leadership is so attractive to us humans - because that's how our own society and organizations tend to be structured.)

also, i don't really think an individual horse's position in the hierarchy has any significant effect on how it should be treated, it still needs to be trained to be mannerly around people.
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Here I agree with you 100%. The behaviour (good manners) should come first.
 
Persephone said:
My mare does this when she is feeling fresh. Damned annoying!

She just goes up, maybe once or twice, then carries on forwards. TBH I try to ignore it as much as possible, I know it can be a bit hairy, especuially if it's a big horse, but I didn't want to go down the chifney route.

I put her in a be nice halter for a month or so after she first did it, but she is so sporadic with it that it didn't really make much difference I don't think.

She gets led in a normal, well fitted headcollar with a 15' lead rope. If she goes up, I step away, but can still keep hold of the rope. She gets a verbal telling off as in "Oi!" in a growly voice and a sharp donwards tug on the rope IF SAFE.

If it's any consolation it has never transferred to her ridden work.

It's just something that I am very aware of. Probably worth wearing a hat and gloves until OP sorts out?
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Thanks for that, i think that your mare and mine may be sisters lol. I have done exactly as you have done with yours i.e. stepping away, tug down & growly voice.

I will definitely not even attempt the Chifney route as they scare the bejesus out of me.
 
fburton said:
Me neither, regardless of whether they are dominant with other horses or not!


Actually, I think dominance and leadership are rather different things for horses - and the qualities that make a horse dominant are different from those that make others want to follow. How else to explain why the horse that initiates movements in the herd and the others follow is often not the most dominant? If a horse follows a dominant, it's in spite of not because of the other horse's dominance. Horses tend to follow others that are trustworthy - hence the leader is often an older (and hence experienced and knowledgeable) mare. They are repelled not attracted by pushiness and aggression. So I try to behave in ways that inspire trust - by being calm, confident, consistent - not aggressive or pushy.

(It's easy to see why the idea that dominance is the same as leadership is so attractive to us humans - because that's how our own society and organizations tend to be structured.)

Absolutely fascinating reading there, my mare appears very dominant in the field with the other mares and moves them around, all the mares (inc new ones that arrive) tend to know she is the boss, but when riding out in a group does not want to be the leader and will happily fall back and let some one else lead the ride.

So based on that would you say she was a dominant mare or a leader??
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Mahoganybay said:
Absolutely fascinating reading there, my mare appears very dominant in the field with the other mares and moves them around, all the mares (inc new ones that arrive) tend to know she is the boss, but when riding out in a group does not want to be the leader and will happily fall back and let some one else lead the ride.

So based on that would you say she was a dominant mare or a leader??
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From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot force another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be imposed on others - instead, it has to be earned in some way.

Hope this makes sense?
 
fburton said:
From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot force another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be imposed on others - instead, it has to be earned in some way.

Hope this makes sense?
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I definitely think she is dominant rather than a leader as watching her in the herd she often tells the subordinates to 'get out of her way' with her body language and threat of aggression and will back the threat up if/when ignored.

What i find interesting is that she is so assertive in the herd yet is very nervous and spooky out on a ride, it has taken me nearly 3 years (give or take and including a year long stint on box rest) to get her hacking out without her having a heart attack just because a leaf blew across the lane.

I find that if she really is scared out riding she is far better being a 'follower' whether that be following me on foot or another horse..
 
fburton said:
From what you say, she is clearly dominant. Whether she is "leader" in the sense that others are willing to follow her isn't clear - she may simply prefer not to be the one in front of the ride!

However, I think "leadership" is a slightly misleading word to describe what happens amongst horses, and "followership" may be more accurate and true to what actually goes on. After all, a horse cannot force another to follow; the choice of whether to follow or not always belongs with the other horse. A dominant horse can tell subordinates to "go away" or "get out of my way" with body language and threats of aggression (or actual agression if the threats are ignored); she cannot tell a subordinate to "come here"! So leadership can't be imposed on others - instead, it has to be earned in some way.

Hope this makes sense?
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I like your thoughts on 'Followership' that's sort of how I see a herd. I saw a study about lactating mares being dominate, but I think they just needed more water so they had the idea to get a drink first. This meant the rest of the herd had to follow, as there is always saftey in numbers.

I don't think the dominance thing is right. It may be that the OP's mare is just displacing behaviour and being grumpy with the other horses as she still has issues of her own.
 
better half said:
I like your thoughts on 'Followership' that's sort of how I see a herd. I saw a study about lactating mares being dominate, but I think they just needed more water so they had the idea to get a drink first. This meant the rest of the herd had to follow, as there is always saftey in numbers.

I don't think the dominance thing is right. It may be that the OP's mare is just displacing behaviour and being grumpy with the other horses as she still has issues of her own.
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Yeah the issue being she did not want to walk at my pace lol
 
I can now see why speeding up my walk so as to not upset a fresh young horse worked. You can work on the pace thing when you have time and can control the situation a bit more. You can build attention and respect, but don't loose it by getting in a fight you can't win.
 
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