Rearing/napping/bucking

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Alyshashadow

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Hello I think this is the right place to post. I am trying to get some advice, I have a 12 year old Tb I have owned him for nearly 5 years now. He has a big powerful jump our record is 1.20 he has the scope to go bigger but I am a nervous jumper & he moves beautifully. He is a donkey in the school and to be handled (most of the time!) but as soon as I try and go for a hack he will get 5 yards up the road and start to nap then he will spin, rear, buck then leap all in one. He has seemed to get worse as he's got older, he has his teeth and back done regularly and has had a brand new saddle fitted, physically he is very healthy never been lame sick or sorry. He also does this at shows, fun rides etc. I have tried everything but nothing works it is getting to the point where I an nervous to take him out of the yard or to shows or anything. He is either ridden in a eggbut snaffle or a Dutch gag, helpful comments only please! Thanks!
 
Alyshashadow said:
Hello I think this is the right place to post. I am trying to get some advice, I have a 12 year old Tb I have owned him for nearly 5 years now. He has a big powerful jump our record is 1.20 he has the scope to go bigger but I am a nervous jumper & he moves beautifully. He is a donkey in the school and to be handled (most of the time!) but as soon as I try and go for a hack he will get 5 yards up the road and start to nap then he will spin, rear, buck then leap all in one. He has seemed to get worse as he's got older, he has his teeth and back done regularly and has had a brand new saddle fitted, physically he is very healthy never been lame sick or sorry. He also does this at shows, fun rides etc. I have tried everything but nothing works it is getting to the point where I an nervous to take him out of the yard or to shows or anything. He is either ridden in a eggbut snaffle or a Dutch gag, helpful comments only please! Thanks!
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Do you have lessons? If not, try a few; eyes on the ground and some experience would give a different perspective and maybe be some helpful advice. :)
 
oldjumper said:
Does he only do this when hacking alone? it sounds like a confidence issue.
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He used to hack alone and in company we would go for miles, but now he will not hack alone or with company. I know some of it is anxiety/confidence he is an ex racehorse so was used to being in big yards but I've had him nearly 5 years and has always been kept on our yard
 
oldjumper said:
Does he only do this when hacking alone? it sounds like a confidence issue.
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Digger66 said:
Do you have lessons? If not, try a few; eyes on the ground and some experience would give a different perspective and maybe be some helpful advice. :)
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But the thing is it's not in the school he is good as gold in the school try's his heart out and does everything I ask of him, do you think lessons would also help him hacking and stuff too?
 
If there really is nothing physically wrong then it would be worth trying to pony him from another horse. Obviously try this in a safe , confined place first.

Will he lead sensibly in-hand? If he does then pick a short route and lead him the whole way (make sure that it's circular or lollipop shaped). Once you've done that a few times, do the same route, but get on half way and ride home. Gradually reduce the time led, until you are riding the whole way and if he gets 'stuck' just get off and lead (before he gets in a tizzy) to get him going again and then remount when safe. He needs to learn that forwards is the only option. I know that many people like to wait or fight it out, but I've done a lot of riding on busy roads where it just isn't safe to do so, which is why I've used the popping off and leading method (successfully too). Never turn on the spot and go back the way you came with a horse that has nappy tendencies.
 
Lessons don't always mean the instructor standing in the middle of the school. I had confidence issues out hacking and my friendly instructor did some work with me in the school and then walked with me to the local farm yard to meet all the tractors which my horse hated. She also walked with me around the lanes, and did things like waited at given points for me whilst I hacked away from her and then back. Its useful to have someone on the floor to help if things go wrong. Might be worth seeing if you can find someone who will work with you like that.
 
You say he used to hack alone and in company - was that with you or has he always been like this with you?

If he has always been like this with you then have you tried another rider on him - could you ask your instructor to ride him out? It could be that he just needs a quiet, confident rider to get him going and if you are feeling nervous of him about to start with his antics then he will be picking up on that.

If he used to hack with you then you need to work out if something has happened that has made hacking scary.
 
Could it be a vision issue? (So confident in the 4 walls of an arena where he knows it all and feels safe but take him somewhere where there are more variable circumstances and he gets insecure?)

I only ask in the basis that mine has had some issues...a lot of issues!...and after a vet work up think he has some neurological damage. He is going in for a head CT on Thursday to give us a better idea of what's going on (or to rule out something sinister) but I'm fairly convinced he doesn't see the world the way other horses do. Otherwise the same old hacking route wouldn't be so scary and stressful every time. He is lovely in the arena or a small corner of the field and tries so hard to do as he is asked.
 
I second leading him in-hand. At the moment, what do you do when he starts napping etc? If you turn around or dismount and go home, you are reinforcing the behaviour so it's not a surprise that it's gotten worse.
 
madlady said:
You say he used to hack alone and in company - was that with you or has he always been like this with you?

If he has always been like this with you then have you tried another rider on him - could you ask your instructor to ride him out? It could be that he just needs a quiet, confident rider to get him going and if you are feeling nervous of him about to start with his antics then he will be picking up on that.

If he used to hack with you then you need to work out if something has happened that has made hacking scary.
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Yes with me, I got him straight out of racing and has only been ridden by a handful of different people (mainly my friends) I would say I am a quiet and confident rider I give him his head as it's worse when you hold him. I only get nervous when he starts doing it, I am used to it now. I think I am going to try the walking him in hand technique for now & I am getting my other horse back off loan next month so he will have someone more regulare to hack with and hopefully show him the ropes. Oh and him being good to lead all depends what mood he is in sometimes he's a donkey sometimes he's like a stallion
 
Barnacle said:
I second leading him in-hand. At the moment, what do you do when he starts napping etc? If you turn around or dismount and go home, you are reinforcing the behaviour so it's not a surprise that it's gotten worse.
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Yes I'm going to try that, at the moment I will give him a tap with the whip (I'm not a massive fan of whips, spurs& pony club kicking your horse) but he spins. He isn't not bothered what so ever about the whip then once he has spun round the way home he will jog back
 
once he has spun round the way home he will jog back
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That is your fundamental issue right there. You are going to have to put a lot of effort and training into him so that he learns that spinning and going back the way he came just isn't an option. It is possible but you might need to come up with strategies that help. For example a full cheek bit might help you keep him straight. Also, if he always spins the same way, hold the whip so that you can tap him on the shoulder to block the spin. If he ignores the whip, maybe a whip-whop rope would be better? You might need a trainer to help you too. They could even come with you on hacks to start with. You will have to accept that you can only do circular or lollipop shaped hacking routes with him from now on and firmly stick to that, even if you have to lead him all the way home a few times. Also you can work on him being good to lead at all times. This might actually be your first step in his retraining. :)
 
Alyshashadow said:
Yes I'm going to try that, at the moment I will give him a tap with the whip (I'm not a massive fan of whips, spurs& pony club kicking your horse) but he spins. He isn't not bothered what so ever about the whip then once he has spun round the way home he will jog back
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Are you saying he spins around and you just sit there and let him jog back or..?

If that's what you are saying, you are making this issue much worse than it should be. You simply have to turn him right back and ask again over and over until he goes the way you are asking him to go. If you get scared that he will buck, turn him in a tight circle and then ask again when you are pointing the way you want to go. Do not whip him hard (a little flick is ok but you should prioritise your legs). Just squeeze and release and be sure to not be pulling back on the reins. If he's not sensitive to voice commands, concentrate on getting him used to going forward off a click too - that'll mean you have yet another aid at your disposal (and IME it's the most effective one cause they don't shut it out like they do legs/whips). If you whip or wallop him, he may start anticipating that and actually become fearful - which is even more of a pain in the backside to resolve. If you get scared he will rear, just dismount and walk him in-hand past the spot. Then get back on. Repeat until he's walking a bit. Then reward him! Carry some treats and actually lean over and give him some when he's going forward without hesitation. You may spend hours getting him to do as asked the first few times - I've spent a good few hundred hours on various napping horses solving their problems at this point - but once you've done it, they get the idea. Then you just have to keep on top of it and reinforce the good behaviour.

Walking him in-hand will help you make the whole thing a bit less of a fight though. Do stop from time to time when you have him in-hand and give him a treat or even let him graze (I put this on command and then stop from time to time even when mounted - they wait for the command to put their heads down). If going out becomes a pleasant thing for him, the napping should be a lot easier to deal with.
 
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Some good points made.

If all else fails and he manages to get home go straight innthe school and work jar
same after you have led him for a walking hack

He has leaned that going home means getting out of ie finishing work.

There is an American trainer that has great results in letting the horse go where it wants, but if it's not where he asked it to go he makes it work very hard until it goes in the direction he wants

Look up Warwick schiller on YouTube
 
That's a little different though soulfull... I believe he does that to get horses used to spooky objects and perhaps he does it to stop napping in an enclosed space - can't really do that hacking! Many people use the technique - it's not just him (in fact, I couldn't have given you a name). I've used it myself to teach horses to relax if they get a bit worried in a school.
 
My Tb was like this his issue was ulcers which made the situation worse. If I tried to make him get past his point (was like he was attached to a rubber band to home) it would turn to custard. What I had to do in the end was be very patient and calm kept him on a long rein and every time he tried to head for home Id repoint in the direction we were heading slight forward encouragement with body/ legs as much as he could stand every step in the right direction was rewarded and I only push him as far past his point as I felt he could cope we eventually got there but it took a while. Fast forward a few years and he was foot perfect on his own. Telling him off just confirmed his fears / insecurities. Sometimes I even got off and lead him.
 
Barnacle said:
Are you saying he spins around and you just sit there and let him jog back or..?

If that's what you are saying, you are making this issue much worse than it should be. You simply have to turn him right back and ask again over and over until he goes the way you are asking him to go. If you get scared that he will buck, turn him in a tight circle and then ask again when you are pointing the way you want to go. Do not whip him hard (a little flick is ok but you should prioritise your legs). Just squeeze and release and be sure to not be pulling back on the reins. If he's not sensitive to voice commands, concentrate on getting him used to going forward off a click too - that'll mean you have yet another aid at your disposal (and IME it's the most effective one cause they don't shut it out like they do legs/whips). If you whip or wallop him, he may start anticipating that and actually become fearful - which is even more of a pain in the backside to resolve. If you get scared he will rear, just dismount and walk him in-hand past the spot. Then get back on. Repeat until he's walking a bit. Then reward him! Carry some treats and actually lean over and give him some when he's going forward without hesitation. You may spend hours getting him to do as asked the first few times - I've spent a good few hundred hours on various napping horses solving their problems at this point - but once you've done it, they get the idea. Then you just have to keep on top of it and reinforce the good behaviour.

Walking him in-hand will help you make the whole thing a bit less of a fight though. Do stop from time to time when you have him in-hand and give him a treat or even let him graze (I put this on command and then stop from time to time even when mounted - they wait for the command to put their heads down). If going out becomes a pleasant thing for him, the napping should be a lot easier to deal with.
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Yes but once has spun he won't go back around the thing I'm most worried about on the road is him slipping over he has spun once an gone down in his knees where he slipped, I've thought about road studs
But not sure if they would actually work. At the moment he is in a Dutch gag just as we were meant to be going on a fun ride a few days ago and haven't changed it back to his snaffle. I have thought about a dexter ring bit as you're meant to be able to turn them very well with them but I dot want anything too harsh as he isn't strong at all in till we are jumping or galloping. Thank you for all y
 
Definitely start of with walking hacks then.

It does seem (from what you have said) that this is learned behaviour. He has learned that if he spins round and throws a big enough strop about it then he gets to go home.

If you can't get him to turn back around when you are on board then hop off and lead, if it means you have to lead him around the whole ride there is no harm done. You will have to repeat lots and lots and establish in his mind that you are his leader as it seems (again from what you have said) that he's doing what he wants rather than what you want him to do.
 
You don't need a stronger bit OP (I would switch back to his regular snaffle) - you just need to be a bit tougher yourself and not let him get away with things. As madlady says, get off and lead if you have to - but never, ever simply let him go back home.

Why don't you get him some boots so you don't need to worry as much about him hurting himself on the road? And avoid roads... If you can.
 
Barnacle said:
You don't need a stronger bit OP (I would switch back to his regular snaffle) - you just need to be a bit tougher yourself and not let him get away with things. As madlady says, get off and lead if you have to - but never, ever simply let him go back home.

Why don't you get him some boots so you don't need to worry as much about him hurting himself on the road? And avoid roads... If you can.
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I have just bought a full cheek snaffle as lots of people suggested it, I tried leading him out yesterday but he would not move or he would just reverse down the road, he is rode in fetlock and over reach boots and tendon or brushing boots for jumping as my back lady suggested, unfortunately we have to hack for about 2 miles to get off the road
 
Thank you everyone for your helpful comments! I have just bought a full cheek snaffle as some of you suggested so will try that out when it arives. I also tried leading him from hand but he was very stubborn so would not move, I am going to try out lots of your suggestions and I am also going to try leading him from another horse in a dually headcollar as my friend suggested I do. Again thank you for all your replies! It's a shame I can't post videos as it's very hard to explain what he actually does
 
An update for you all! :) after taking everyone's suggestions into consideration in the end I put a full cheek on him and just told myself I'm not scared of his rears.
I got him hacking out in the end he has his little funny five mins but we can usually over come them! We had a fall two week ago on the road (he wasn't exactly being naughty) but sped up as it was the way back and some how slipped and I ended up on the forgoing and he ended up on his face. He had just over a week off due to cut legs that then got infected! All better now but have just been taking it easy and doing little hacks I took his shoes off and I am a bit reluctant to put them back on because of slipping again! But again thank you everyone for your help it is much appreciated! :)
 
maccachic said:
I always feel safer with barefeet on slippery surfaces :) Sounds like you are heading in the right direction congrats :)
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Yup I defiantly feel safer haha, my cob type is barefoot but unfortunatly being a thoroughbred has your downfalls an he has pretty bad feet without shoes and can't walk on stones :(
 
Alyshashadow said:
Yup I defiantly feel safer haha, my cob type is barefoot but unfortunatly being a thoroughbred has your downfalls an he has pretty bad feet without shoes and can't walk on stones :(
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My TB was the same but they do improve (take photos its amazing the changes you don't see day to day) for stones I use Easy Boot Epics (whatever boots fit your horse) I've never found them slippery.
 
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