Rearing Youngster

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OliveYou

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Hello,

I have recently purchased a new ID x TB mare. She has recently turned 4 and I have owned her for 12 weeks. She has done very little schooling. She was broken and backed prior to me buying her but remains extremely green when ridden alone. She has developed quickly in the few weeks that I have owned her, her shape has completely transformed and she is looking very well. Unfortunately this has also meant shes feeling very well when being ridden.

Shes a quick learner and goes well in the school with company. She picks up things very quickly and has an honesty about her. The only fault that she has is a rear, a huge rear!

She only does it out hacking, not in the school but both in company or alone. Today was the biggest yet, so big that I am close to selling her on. I have seen too many injuries in my line of work to hang around with a rearer. However my question is this, is she rearing because she is a baby and will she grow out of it or is it a bad habit in the making and will require balls of steel to ride it out of her?

She rears both from fright and impatience's. I have attempted to knock her on the head on her way up but the rear has got so big now that all I can do is throw my weight into her neck to stop her coming over.
 
Always in walk, today we were on a common and she was holding onto the bit and very uptight but otherwise she does it when she gets bored of waiting for a car to pass in the lanes. A friend has suggested riding her in draw reins for a little while out hacking, what's peoples thoughts on this?
 
I wouldn't, recipe for disaster imo.

ETA, just re-read your post about doing it when waiting for a car to pass.
That sounds very much like my ID who bucked as noisy cars passed her. She started with just a small jump, I had the saddle reflocked, saddler did comment that her back was a bit tight but vet had only just been and for jabs/check-up and said that she was fine. We carried on and she got worse until eventually bucked me off on the road as a throaty car came past. When I thought about it properly, every incident had been in response to noise. She must have had a head-ache caused by the muscle damage that vet diagnosed after my fall.
Do get the saddle checked/2nd opinion and a 2nd vet opinion if necessary.
 
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Draw reins? For a rearer? Er... I would just turn her away with a herd to mature and see what you get next year.
 
Who were you going to sell her on to? . is there someone locally looking for a green horse which rears?
Did the person who told you to knock her on the head mention a bottle of tomato ketchup?
Best to find someone both willing and capable to break her in properly, and maybe give you nice mature type in exchange.
Alternatively re school her using an experienced BHSII level instructor 2-3 times per week, stop hacking out on your own.
 
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If it was her back she would be doing it in the school? She was turned away for 8 months when I bought her. Basically that is the question I'm asking though, do they mature and just stop doing it? The last youngster I broke and brought on was such a walk I'm just not sure what to expect :(
 
Do you have cars passing the school?

My horse was her usual well-mannered self, except when vehicles passed us, unfortunately, I didn't put 2 and 2 together until it was too late. I think that the pain in her back and the headache that was caused by holding herself to minimise the pain were there but bearable until she was challenged by the noise and the headache got so bad that she couldn't stand it. She once took off with me at a canter along the pavement because a pedestrian on the other side of the road scuffed her feet in fallen leaves and made them crackle.
 
OliveYou said:
If it was her back she would be doing it in the school? She was turned away for 8 months when I bought her. Basically that is the question I'm asking though, do they mature and just stop doing it? The last youngster I broke and brought on was such a walk I'm just not sure what to expect :(
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Every horse is different. My filly will rear if she doesn't like something. You just have to be calm, patient and be "there" for her insecurities. It does sound as if this girl isn't mentally ready. Also, she has the added pressure of your expectations. Personally I would take a long sympathetic look and not sell her on at this time. It would be unfair. It does sound as if time or indeed a quiet hand is what is needed. Not more restraints, more gadgetry or force. Listen to what she she is saying. In my experience with ID blood especially crossed with some fire is that you mustn't rush them. They are absolutely rock steady horses and the most loyal types but you do have be sympathetic. I worked on a yard with these types and to be fair, these were not started under saddle until 5. They were shown as youngsters in-hand and worked in-hand regularly from 4 but never mounted until a much later age. Bigger is not necessarily better.
 
If the horse is unable to walk forwad in a relaxed and happy manner, it needs to be checked over, it would not just appear when a car passes, it may not be happy to be stopped, some horse do rear , if they can't go forward, can;t go back, they can only go up, get some lessons, go back to basics, more horses are ruined at this stage than at any other.
 
tallyho! said:
Every horse is different. My filly will rear if she doesn't like something. You just have to be calm, patient and be "there" for her insecurities. It does sound as if this girl isn't mentally ready. Also, she has the added pressure of your expectations. Personally I would take a long sympathetic look and not sell her on at this time. It would be unfair. It does sound as if time or indeed a quiet hand is what is needed. Not more restraints, more gadgetry or force. Listen to what she she is saying. In my experience with ID blood especially crossed with some fire is that you mustn't rush them. They are absolutely rock steady horses and the most loyal types but you do have be sympathetic. I worked on a yard with these types and to be fair, these were not started under saddle until 5. They were shown as youngsters in-hand and worked in-hand regularly from 4 but never mounted until a much later age. Bigger is not necessarily better.
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Thank you, your reply has brought me to tears. Your absolutely right, I'm expecting the world from her because she is beautiful and has so much potential. I know she will make a wonderful horse one day and I must step back and let her grow. Thank you for sharing the experience you had on that yard, that's very reassuring. I'm very grateful for everyone's advice tonight, thank you.
 
Absolutely not to the draw reins - she'll go over backwards.

She may grow out of it but will remember and might do it again. Has she been taught to stand still? I mean literally stand still on a loose rein and relax? Try doing this in the school, give her a mint from her back to distract her from being in such a rush to get going - this should help keep her focus on you. She sounds stressed and anxious, has she been doing a lot of fast work? She needs to learn to relax.

Do you relax the rein when she is walking or standing? I had a girl come to look at one of mine and he reared up because she was a little heavier handed and he had such a soft mouth, he had never shown the slightest inclination to rear previously and I broke him.

Also, is she living out? If not get her turned out full time, it can make a tremendous difference. If you want to cure this you need to keep at it - sounds like she's had a go at rearing and been turned away before. Try to keep her mind busy - slow work, lots of it and take her to lots of different places.
 
OliveYou said:
Thank you, your reply has brought me to tears. Your absolutely right, I'm expecting the world from her because she is beautiful and has so much potential. I know she will make a wonderful horse one day and I must step back and let her grow. Thank you for sharing the experience you had on that yard, that's very reassuring. I'm very grateful for everyone's advice tonight, thank you.
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Oh I didn't mean for you to cry! Don't worry. They are wonderful horses and will blossom when they are ready. Patience will make a horse as the owner always used to say to me. These were enormous hunters she used to take to the nationals and I daresay they never knew anything more than a snaffle!
 
My gelding was exactly the same at the same age.

Selling wasn't really an option, so I had to work it out. He was worried about leaving home and venturing out into the big, wide world. If he felt nervous, or I felt unsafe I would get off and lead him until we both felt ok, and then get back on.

Also - short hacks to start. The horse can't know what you know, so when you ride out the gate, you know you are only going to be 15 minutes, for all he knows you are taking him to his doom. So I used to ride 10 minutes down the road, and then turn around and go home. The day after that we would go a bit further, and a bit further the day after that. Then we would try a new route, but the same routine.

My boy was destined for an endurance career, so he had to hack out alone. We got there in the end, but it's a tough call, and no one can make that for you.
 
Hi just had a quick read through your post and the others. Don't give up on her yet. My sons horse reared right over, lost his back end and fell over with me last year, not long after I bought him. Im fine with naughty and bouncy horses, but this gave me quite a shock, we were only walking and I was on a loose rein, no warning! Funny people always 'forget' to mention these things when selling!! So I thought about what he had done in life, I don't think anyone had ever given him any quality time and he had had enough and was I think in pain. He is 13, has never been hacked out or seen much traffic, only lorries and trailers on the pitch. I'd had teeth done, so then had his back done, it was very tight in several places. He was very fit when he came and would, jog, fly buck and rear, unless he was busy in a match, it was his only way of coping. I gave him 6 months off, then took him back to basics, loose schooled him and showed him how to use himself. I also did lots of massage and stretching, which we both enjoyed. The final hurdle and the hardest, is over coming the mental block and bad habits, which at 13 years old run deep! He is a polo pony, but is big at 16.2!! We now have a happy horse, bursting with character! His back still goes up when you first get on, but I can walk and talk him through it, you must be firm. Everyday gets better without him getting the beating he used to get (I met someone at a match who recognised him!) I now hack out and he is still a bit restless if I make him wait for traffic, I think they feel vulnerable with an on coming car, so I ask the car to wait and keep walking on past, much better. Finally consider what you are feeding, he'd previously been given hard feed of nuts and mix, which went straight through, never putting any weight on and just blowing his mind. He now only gets Dengie Healthy Tummy, which takes a long time to eat, but he has put on so much condition, is calmer and has plenty of energy to double chukka. Best of luck.
 
My other suggestion would be to help re the traffic issue would be to see if you can find a large turnout field beside a busy road for regular turnout to help de-sensitise them to traffic before you even sit on them out hacking
 
Thank you all for your kind words and support. She is turned out on grass 24/7 at the moment but I think I will go with the majority and take things a step back. Avoid the common and work on stopping, standing and walking. The common can wait, everything can wait. She's only four, let's get the standing still motion working before anything else. I'm really glad I posted on here, you've all really helped me focus instead of feeling as disheartened as I did early! Thank you, I'll give you some feedback in a few weeks :) good night.
 
There is a thread in Competition riders about rearing OP, which might be of help.
Regardless of her reasons for rearing, it would be a good idea to stop the rears as a priority. It will get to be a go to reaction whenever she is stressed or nappy.

If you know she might rear then, don't allow the situation to develop. Mine gets impatient at junctions etc. but as a baby, ensure she is behind others & if possible walk small circles.

Draw reins did help mine, but I knew he was unlikely to go over, the best way to stop a rearer is to aggressively 'mill' them. When you feel the front end begin to lock, spin the horse in a tiny, uncomfortable circle and then drive it in the direction you wanted to go in.

I would try and avoid any confrontations firstly tho, by ensuring she is doing stuff she's happy and confident with until you generally have more submission. good luck
 
Hi op, you have had a few brilliant replies not least Tally ho's.
4, having been turned away before you had her and you not having had her long is very babyish.
We had a baby who reared when we had to wait at junctions for traffic out hacking. We only hacked him with a quiet friend who would stand nicely for hours. Along our hacks we started just standing. In random safe places. Making a bit of a fuss. Patting and good boys. He soon learnt to stand nicely and when we came to a junction we no longer had problems- even alone.
On the positive side you obviously have a lovely mare as she's been willing to try so hard for you, hacking alone is challenging for someone of her experience so I'd take a step back and enjoy and let her enjoy her baby years :)
 
I have a now 6 year old idxtb (3/4 Id) and it is only this year (having had her for a year and a half) that I've really been able to push her on. I had saddle related problems with her in the first 6ish months and have had to change saddles twice since having her as the minute it's not quite right she backs off work - all polite signs I now listen to before we get the explosion stage we had before. When I had my problems I really thought long and hard about selling her but I couldn't so we had everything checked and went back to basics - it put us back 6 plus months but does it really matter if you end up with a horse that is well balanced mentally and you have a bond with. Once basics done I got an instructor who initially really helped but she then became very focused on getting us to canter in the school. Every lesson it became the 'thing' - eventually resulting in her using the lunge whip on us (which I said I didn't want) - cue massive explosion from my mare again. She was trying her best and couldn't cope. I think you need to listen to her with your goals in mind. Whilst physically she may be ok (but get everything checked) she's only a baby and needs time. Perhaps focus on ground work - my mare will stand, walk and trot on voice command (canter is still a work in progress!) - we have built a good relationship and she trusts me. I now know how much I can push her. As an aside, when I first had her she was also v impatient to stop. I would have to circle our yard if I had to wait for company as she wouldn't stand and she reared for another rider when they tried to force the standing. In hindsight that could have been the saddle but what I did was practice the halt out and about - not just when I had cars etc, and I still do now, especially when we are on the home stretch as it's the time she is least submissive. Best of luck with her - I absolutely love mine. We might not be breaking any records but she's safe as houses and I'm too old to bounce these days!
 
Thank you everyone. I will practice plenty of halts and turning her when I feel the rear coming is a great hit of advice. I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing that than smack her or using force. I'm looking forward to seeing her today now, yesterday I couldn't wait to turn her out in the field and go home. Have a great day all :)
 
I'm on here to learn so hope others don't mind my asking a question! (I'm a bit bruised and battered from a doggy forum, so be gentle!).

When an animal is in a situation it doesn't like, it will sometimes try escape behaviour that it has been programmed to follow by instinct. (e.g. scared = flight). If that works, it will repeat it. Intentionally or otherwise, that is something we all make use of in training. Set the scene for the animal to follow a certain piece of behaviour and make sure it "wins" or is rewarded, right?

I am wondering where this horse is in the social hierarchy within the herd? Has it used rearing as a means of defence/escape, even in play? I know my two 2yo colts play all the time, lots of mini rearing and feigned biting without actually harming each other. The reason I ask is because of the advice to turn away which certainly sounds sensible. With maturity comes security. Is that what happens?
 
I'm hoping with maturity she will feel confident enough not to go up but she'll need security in my riding to get there. She is so calm and loving on foot and in the field, neither human or field mates have any issues there.
I suppose that's a good sign too :)
 
You could also lead her out on the road and just ride off road till she's more confident. Well done for seeking and listening to advice, all the best of luck with her, I'm sure she'll be fine.
 
I think rearing is no different to a horse than head tossing, bucking or any other form of behaviour. It takes some effort and some horses find it easier than others, depending upon conformation. My gelding rears everywhere, in his stable, in the field, on the yard and at any point when he wants to make an objection.

In a behavioural or training sense, rearing is particularly difficult to handle because when the horses head comes up the rider becomes passive. The horse has an instantaneous release of pressure. that's why I think you have to be very careful about really backing off when a horse is being nappy, inadvertently you cane be reinforcing the behaviour. ideally you never get to that point, but if you do you need lightning quick reflexes and a bit of nerve I think.

I also think that the older horse is just a reflection of what the younger horse learned. if you train a young horse to be bold, & to be submissive to the rider, it will be more confident all it's life. They learn nothing in the field IMO.
 
Your situation sounds familiar to me. I got my boy last year, aged 4 and just backed and hacking out. He hadn't done any schooling but I tried him in company and he was fine. He did buck going into canter but it wasn't nasty and I put it down to him being young and unbalanced. I got him home and all was well for a couple of months, and then he started rearing. He initially reared on a solo hack (we'd done the route with no problem a couple of days beforehand), when another horse came into sight some way off. After that we had a disastrous hack where he saw a horse in the distance and just reared, and reared, and reared. How I got him home I don't know!

The rearing then carried over into schooling. Any time he felt a bit confused or worried he went up. It wasn't an awful lot of fun! I stopped hacking him for the most part, just doing the odd one over the winter when the weather was good (calm, no wind, good visibility) and I had a sensible rider to go out with, and we spent a lot of time in the school just working on the very basics and taking it slowly.

He hasn't reared for about 8/9 months now, though he did have a brief spell where he seemed to switch rearing for bucking me off (back was checked and treated, saddle altered but it turns out he bucks in anticipation of the bit causing him pain, I once caught him in the mouth after a buck and that seems to have sit this pattern up). We're over that now and I'm just at the point where I can hack him out for about 10 minutes alone with no problems, he'll go out with a foot soldier for half an hour and that's ok too, and he's back to hacking in company very nicely.

I'm still not cantering him regularly, as I don't think he's ready yet, but his walk and trot work is wonderful. I can see and feel his confidence growing over time and I think he's going to be a cracking pony once he's matured mentally (he looks very mature physically which is misleading). There are definite moments where he considers going up, takes a second and then doesn't - because in that second of thought I can do something to defuse him, whether that's bending him sideways (harder to rear if they're not straight) or just pushing him forwards. But I need that second to do this. I think as he's learning to trust me and accept that I'm someone who should be listened to, he's looking to me for guidance and reaction more than just reacting instinctively.

He still rears when he feels under pressure, it's his go to move in hand or if something is happening that he doesn't like, but even that has improved no end thanks to groundwork and just spending time with him.

ETA, my boy initially comes across as supremely confident. He took a bit of a battering in the field when he arrived as he was just in everyone's face all the time and the herd got a bit sick of him I think! He's settled now and gets on well with the rest of the horses, but I think not being in charge in the field shook him and that was possibly part of the problem, combined with a new home and rider at the same time. He is incredibly loving and a real comic to be around, a total sweetheart.
 
Every horse is different and the reasons for evasive behavior are all different. I would try and establish the reason and I definitely wouldn't approach the problem with gadgets or restraints. Once you have ruled out all physical possibilities such as saddle pinching, bit, teeth, back etc then look at specifically when she seems to do it and look at yourself and what you are doing just before. As you mentioned it was when she was anticipating a car approaching. Do you halt for cars? (some do on narrow roads etc.) I like to keep a youngster going forwards, when traffic is passin, dont ever feel pressured by impatient drivers, they can wait (wear hi vis warning 'horse in training, or caution young horse too). Also while hacking I mix up the hack with plenty of basic schooling, changes of rein, changes of pace, halts, rein backs etc to keep them busy, thinking and listening.

She may have picked up on you giving off a tiny bit of anxiety about traffic, its easily done even if we don't know we are doing it and after rearing the first time, this can spiral as you will be worried about her rearing again each time and subtly feeding each others anxieties. It has to be addressed immediately.. and not on your own.

If I were dealing with a new rearer I would be aiming to nip it in the bud and not wait to see if she grows out f it, its far too dangerous to be allowed to continue and she musnt be allowed to get into the mindset of thinking she only listens to you some of the time but sometimes its ok to do what she feels like.

I would hack her out with someone experienced on foot with a long lead rope/lunge line clipped to a headcollar under her bridle walking at the side of you (but not interfering or 'leading'.. just there), with just one other horse and rider (a steady, reliable, ploddy, well mannerd schoolmaster type - basically a good solid influence, who wont be phased by whatever she gets up to).

It would probably be best to chose a time/place that is not busy and perhaps enlist the help of friends to drive past, who are fully aware of he situation.

don't carry a whip but a soft rope, like a cotton lead rope (no metal clip). The aim is, first of all to try not to let her rear in the first place, keep her moving forwards, (also be aware that you are not reining her in when cars approach and try to consciously relax). Horses need to stop to rear, even momentarily so be aware of keeping her feet busy using leg and voice to make her 'walk on'. If she does go up, between you and your person on the ground she needs to be brought back down as quickly as possible, with a firm NO voice and use the rope to flick her underside/abdomen with the rope while she is up, (any 'attack' on their exposed, vulnerable underbelly will make them want to protect it by getting back on all fours asap) this usually makes them drop to their feet immediately and the instant she touches the ground make her walk on. If you have someone on the ground holding her too, you wont have to worry about her taking off etc and you can concentrate on just staying on and getting her down. Its important that the person on the ground doesn't get in front of her so she doesn't feel physically blocked from moving forwards

while all this is going on your companion rider will have continued a little way, just 10 or 20 yards on and is patiently waiting.. take advantage of the herd instinct as a further incentive for your horse to want to continue forwards and join up with the other horse.

the second she responds to walk on, reward her, voice, pats and treats if she is used to being trained with treats, keep her walking smartly forwards until she (and you) are relaxed and ask for some halts and rein backs, walk ons etc. make sure she is listening and responding immediately and each time she does as you ask, reward/reassure her.

If you can do no more than just stay on and cant think about using the rope, then the ground person can do it but the must be at the side of her/ behind her shoulder and not in front as she must NOT feel like she is being sent backwards, and just a flick, no force or pain is used.

I've heard a lot of 'remdies' for rearers; smack between the ears, egg on their head, grab their windpipe.. the aim is not to exacerbate the situation abut to let your mare know that moving forwards, not upwards.. is the most fun.

I always tell youngsters they are being good and pat/treat them when they are doing things we would expect any horse to do sensibly, so even if its just 'normal' whats to be expected behaviour.. like just walking along without fuss, let them know they are doing it right. They are still new to it all and reassurance goes a long way to them remembering what the correct behaviours are, instead of just 'punishing' the wrong stuff.
 
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My 4 yr old gelding also rears when I've asked him to do something he doesn't like or understand. He would rear. I changed instructors and realised he wasn't trying to kill me. He just didn't understand. He was refusing to move forward and would rear if I used the whip. Because he had learnt that if he reared I would back down And stop using my whip. My instructor then forced me to keep tapping him until he walked on. (not hard taps either) once he walked on I could stop and test was his reward. And sure enough within 20 mins I had a horse that was walking and trotting on from one squeeze of the leg. Rather than a stubborn a hole that would lock his neck and refuse to move.

If I had one piece of advice it would be get a good riding instructor.

I've had my mare for 13 yrs and I can ride but honestly having a decent instructor makes you realise how much more there is to riding. And how every horse is totally different

Good luck
 
Also as someone mentioned, keep the hacks, short and lead her out a lot in hand to keep adding to her encyclopedia of experiences, all the sights, smells and sounds of being out and about. If its anxiety based, she needs to become desensitized to possible 'threats' out in that big world (remember she has only been on this planet 4 short years and knows very little). In hand you can help reassure her, give her time to take it all in and check things out thoroughly without having to worry so much about your own safety and control as you would in the saddle.

What often happens after a horse is backed/broken people stop doing ground work/in hand work and just expect them to be grown up horses.. a long, smooth slow transition works better, so keep up the pre-backing schooling too, long reining, lungeing, walking/schooling in hand. None of this stuff needs to be rushed in the early years and the trust/bond with flourish from it.
 
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