Reasonable quality of life

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Polos Mum

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I have a lovely 12 y/o lab x with terrible arthritis, one knee where he isn't weightbearing at all and both hips - we've been upping meds with the vets help to get him comfortable now 3 different types of tablet and a liquid twice a day.

He is happy, waggy tail, climbing over small stone walls (to escape!), shiny coat etc. so I think we have the meds right for now. He sleeps a lot! doesn't want to get up or down and has bald elbows where he's lying down all the time.

I talked to the vet this week about when to make the decision, she said to wait until he started to wee / poo on himself because it was too painful to get up to go outside !!! I was horrified by that, I don't want to leave it until it is that bad - by a long way. Am I being overly harsh to think about just before winter when it gets cold which I imagine is much more painful?


I'd welcome peoples thoughts on what is reasonable quality of life for a dog - thanks in advance.
 
I had one pts because of his hips, even though was still happy I’m himself. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done and I can still see the image of him wagging his tail on the way into the vets :( It was the right thing though, he had run out of options meds wise and needed help getting up first thing.

My current dog is on borrowed time because of something else, but she’s been put on Co-codomol and is running around when on a walk and still able to get up and down the stairs. She’s deaf which means she sleeps heavily but she’s not sleeping any longer than my younger dog.

I think when the meds stop working so well and you’ve run out of options it’s fine to let them go.
 
Someone on here has a questionaire you can fill in to clarify your thoughts. I think autumn sounds like a good time, a dog that is in so much pain he cannot get up or down easily, when you think how stoic they are, must be hurting quite a bit.
 
Clodagh said:
Someone on here has a questionaire you can fill in to clarify your thoughts. I think autumn sounds like a good time, a dog that is in so much pain he cannot get up or down easily, when you think how stoic they are, must be hurting quite a bit.
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Many thanks - I'll look out for that
 
I can't remember who shared it, I am sure someone more adept than me at finding things will dig it out.
 
I wouldn't have been happy with your vet's response either. I do think though that vets can find it difficult to deal with small animal owners who don't want to lose their pets, so have to come up with some kind of concrete marker. In the main, multiple animal owners and particularly horse owners, are more realistic ime. We understand the 'better a week too soon than a day too late' saying.

You know your dog and can see when the bad times outweigh the good.
It sounds as if the meds are effective atm but we all know that this is a progressive illness which, in itself can only get worse. As the responsible owner that you are, you will make the decision to not let him suffer, as soon as he starts to do so.

It is hard but it is something that most Lab owners have to deal with as they are very prone to arthritis, you have obviously looked after him well, as 12 is a good age for a Lab, according to my vet.
 
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We made the call on a 14 year old, the first time we saw her struggling to get to her feet. She'd broken a leg as a youngster and had a pin in it, so decided it wasn't fair to let her go on if her other legs were starting to let her down.
Big dogs have a lot of weight to bear and for me, it's a dignity thing.

Best of luck, agree I wouldn't be waiting until the dog starts soiling themselves, it can be very upsetting for a normally clean dog.
 
Sorry you have this decision to make. It’s never an easy one but I think as an owner, and the one who knows your dog the best, you will know when the time is right.
 
Thanks all - I don't want to be bullet happy for him just because I am pragmatic about the horses but neither do I think waiting for him to be unable to keep himself clean is the right balance - really helpful to get a wider range of views, thank you.

I avoid anthropomorphism but if I was stuck in bed unable to make it to the loo - I would feel pretty bad about life!
 
I have a 12 year old lab in the same boat .
I think we ok at the moment on a range of medication .
But I would be waiting until she need helps going to the loo or she can’t get up .
TBH it’s your choice not the vets ,they should just do what you tell them too .
It’s awful .
 
A very good vet said to me years ago that they usually go downhill slowly but suddenly deteriorate a lot and that is the time. I have found it to be so true over many years and many pets - just be ready to make that sudden deterioration as short as possible. Always difficult but that's the time to say enough is enough.
 
Polos Mum said:
I avoid anthropomorphism but if I was stuck in bed unable to make it to the loo - I would feel pretty bad about life!
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Yet if you were simply incontinent you wouldn't be bothered in the slightest, so even 'concrete' measures are hard to set in stone. I like the 'hhhhmm' scale for people to think about, but ultimately many people would have already called it before he got to 4 meds a day, there is no 'right' answer, if you think autumn is the right time, aim for that.
 
Thanks all, I am taking a good look at him every day to spot the sudden deterioration, the decision is made so it will be quick to pop him in the car and run him down the road. My fear is that seeing him all the time means I don't spot a very slow decline.

The checklist is a helpful reminder, and I might do it every 2 weeks so I can see if the scores go down - a bit like a horse weight tape - we all know they aren't accurate but useful to have something simple to track week to week.
 
rara007 said:
Yet if you were simply incontinent you wouldn't be bothered in the slightest, so even 'concrete' measures are hard to set in stone. I like the 'hhhhmm' scale for people to think about, but ultimately many people would have already called it before he got to 4 meds a day, there is no 'right' answer, if you think autumn is the right time, aim for that.
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I think if you were incontinent because you couldn't get up, rather than because you didn't know that you were incontinent, you would be very upset, as would a usually clean dog.

OP, that sounds like a good plan. Sometimes when you see them every day, you don't notice the gradual changes, without recording them in one way or another.
 
https://journeyspet.com/pet-quality-of-life-scale-calculator/

I've used this with people at times when they are unsure if they are coming to the end of the journey or not. Its a pretty good one to get you thinking.

The other thing I also tend to ask is whats your dogs favourite things. How many of those things do they get to do at the moment? If you were your dog and living their life, do you think is there something tomorrow to look forward to...ie do they still have enjoyment in their life.How well is their pain managed? is the current plan providing your dogs the opportunity to enjoy life rather then just endure it.

If theres nothing better coming in the future and the overall quality of life is poor and they aren't able to enjoy their favourite things then its time to call it a day. Better a day to early then a day to late...

Its a terrible decision to have to make...no matter how many times you do this or how many dogs you have it its never any easier, but it is a kind thing to be able to provide a pain free death surrounded but loved ones. Elderly dogs rarely die peacefully in their sleep unfortunately.
 
I really feel for you. I currently have two 3 year old happy fit dogs, but had a young dog with cancer who we had to PTS- he just seemed a bit 'off', husband didn't even notice! but found he was riddled with cancer aged 5. but we went for the PTS while he still had a spark left- he was clearly in pain though as would not jump in and out of boot (lifting a 40kg GSD!), but he wanted to go for walks and eat....

the one thing I would say is- don't be fooled by how stoic they are- despite being riddled with cancer and losing weight very quickly, he of course still wanted to go out to the yard with me. but I feel a lot of that was routine, and he liked his 'job' going to the horses. even though he must of been in agony. he kept going and would of until point of collapse I feel. he did have his only accident in the house the night before the vet came to our house to PTS. I must admit it was actually 'nice' because it just highlighted it was time. but I would not exactly be waiting for double incontinence to make your mind up!

sorry rabbited on. I think you have to look very carefully about how happy they really are. Better a day sooner then a day later in my opinion. I had to rush my parent in laws old dog to the vets in emergency to be PTS, when they were on holiday, when I had felt months ago he had really started to go down hill and had very little quality of life. would have been much nicer if they had planned it. more peaceful.

Aru's phrase of enjoy not endure is spot on I feel
 
It is the worst decision to make for your beloved dog, particularly when there isn’t a definitive event that clearly makes the decision for you.

Given the amount of medication he is on, and the way you describe how he reluctant to get up and down, I personally would be making the decision now for him :(

I have 3 12-year old dogs now and I dread when the time comes, but they have given me so many years of love and enjoyment that I owe it to them to ensure they always enjoy life. I’m a great believer in ‘better a week too early than a week too late’ - the dog does not have any premonition that this might be the case
 
i made that decision 18 months ago for my lurcher. she had slowed down and had stopped chasing anything ,which was so unlike her. she was still eating and pooing ok but i knew she wasnt right. . i took her to the vet and she was diagnosed with arthritis in her hips and the meds didnt seem to help and also upset her tummy.. so i took the weekend to really watch her and made my decision on that......i was worried i had done the deed too soon but on reflection remembered things she had stopped doing, like jumping in the air in anticipation of her walk, not laying upside down on the sofa, sleeping alot more than usual. she was almost 13 but although i miss her everyday i am sure i did the right thing for her.. i really think your vet is wrong and quality of life is of the utmost importance and its better for them to go before being incontinent or unable to stand or move around easily....good luck
 
JillA said:
A very good vet said to me years ago that they usually go downhill slowly but suddenly deteriorate a lot and that is the time. I have found it to be so true over many years and many pets - just be ready to make that sudden deterioration as short as possible. Always difficult but that's the time to say enough is enough.
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And proved yet again this morning. My 13 yr old Cavalier, he of the milky eyes, very few teeth and preference for sleeping, who saw a visitor off in no uncertain terms a couple of days ago, and lived with a heart murmur for the 4 years he was with me, couldn't get on his legs this morning. It was time. And he went at the vets, peacefully, after I knew he couldn't go on. "Better a day too soon than an hour too late"
 
Polos Mum said:
I talked to the vet this week about when to make the decision, she said to wait until he started to wee / poo on himself because it was too painful to get up to go outside !!! I was horrified by that, I don't want to leave it until it is that bad - by a long way. Am I being overly harsh to think about just before winter when it gets cold which I imagine is much more painful?


I'd welcome peoples thoughts on what is reasonable quality of life for a dog - thanks in advance.
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Jesus, that vet needs a talking too! How awful to suggest leaving it that long :frown3:

I lost my choc lab age 12.5 due to his hips going. He was still able to get up and go to the loo, but he was starting to go off his food a bit (big sign!) and didn't want to go very far at all on walks. He was a really stoic dog, so we knew he was in a lot of pain. Vets were pushing to try different meds, one even suggested hip replacement... But we knew his time had come. I even worry I left it a few days too late.
 
JillA said:
A very good vet said to me years ago that they usually go downhill slowly but suddenly deteriorate a lot and that is the time. I have found it to be so true over many years and many pets - just be ready to make that sudden deterioration as short as possible. Always difficult but that's the time to say enough is enough.
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Agree with this.
 
JillA said:
And proved yet again this morning. My 13 yr old Cavalier, he of the milky eyes, very few teeth and preference for sleeping, who saw a visitor off in no uncertain terms a couple of days ago, and lived with a heart murmur for the 4 years he was with me, couldn't get on his legs this morning. It was time. And he went at the vets, peacefully, after I knew he couldn't go on. "Better a day too soon than an hour too late"
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Sorry for your loss JillA.
 
JillA said:
And proved yet again this morning. My 13 yr old Cavalier, he of the milky eyes, very few teeth and preference for sleeping, who saw a visitor off in no uncertain terms a couple of days ago, and lived with a heart murmur for the 4 years he was with me, couldn't get on his legs this morning. It was time. And he went at the vets, peacefully, after I knew he couldn't go on. "Better a day too soon than an hour too late"
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So sorry for you - we pay back all the love they give us
 
I always say you will know with your dog, I have with all of mine over the years. I’m not sure what meds your dogs on and I’m not a massive fan of all supplements however I do have my terrier on yumove advance ( can only buy through your vet) and omg I’ve seen such a different with his legs he’s now off everything other then that.
 
I often think the dog will tell you - I had to make the call on my old collie last year as she had finally got to that stage. She'd had pretty much no joints left in her entire back end for well over a year but she was still bright, made an effort and still managed to potter about and enjoy herself. The last month or so she started not always being able to get up and then started loosing her balance and falling and then not being able to get up. We managed her for a few weeks extra by making sure she was never alone as we had a holiday booked that she came on (caravan by the beech) that she loved and we were able to accomodate her deterioration. A few days after we came home she just sort of changed and stopped trying as much and that was the final 'it's time now'
Such a hard decision to make and only you can know for sure when is the right time for your friend
 
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