Reasons for NOT schooling/having your horse schooled to a higher level

brighteyes

brighteyes

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Would any of you like (or agree to having) your horse or pony slightly better tuned and obedient to the aids, more supple and perhaps able to move better from the leg? Apart from the cost, are there any reasons why you wouldn't like them to understand and carry out slightly more advance movements/paces - if they physically could?

Does being well-schooled make them harder to ride or less saleable if the need arose?

Your views please :)
 
Its not particularly what your horse can do, its what you can do.

So many people blame their horses on this board and I see so many photos saying "excuse my positiion". If you know your position is crap do something about it.

So its more about the horse and the rider, not being schooled at a higher level but maybe its about being trained together at a higher level.
 
hmmm :)
Mabel - perfect example. As you know, I'm rather hot on having my horses just so on the flat, but the reality is, sharing Mabel with my VERY novice OH means that if I create too many buttons to push, he will inevitably accidentally push them and most probably end up on the floor.
I would love her sharper off the leg, and bendier, and quicker in the air, and more moveable in all directions in general, but by making her so, coupled with her personality, I would create a horse my OH could not ride safely.
 
I have two who are perfect examples of 'having the buttons', but only if they are correctly pressed. They will trundle safely round, giving the bare minimum, until someone with half an idea asks - then they deliver. If you are a numpty novice, they oblige as far as your ability dictates. Gather up the reins and apply some reasonable (and I mean just reasonable, I'm not that good myself) riding and you have something nice under you. Does schooling them well really alter temperament. I haven't found that myself with any of mine, including the other, hotter, two.

Basically, you think it depends on who is going to ride them.
 
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This is an interesting point - I recently had to sell one of mine and he has gone to a super confident 11 year who has been hunting since she was 4 but has only had a limited education on the flat. I went yesterday to give her a lesson on him and she had him going beautifully by the end and the parents were beside themselves at how well he goes on the flat (event pony with dressage points as well) I was talking to their groom (yes that sort of home ;)) afterwards as she rides him during the week when the daughter is at boarding school and she said she loved riding him as he was so easy, he just stays where ever you put him and works really well, but that he was more like a horse to ride than a pony as he was schooled very much inside leg to outside hand whereas most ponies are a bit more "kick and pull" and that when sj him you need to keep him together much more so that he uses his power more than speed to jump.

So this got me thinking - had I made a mistake in schooling him the way I had, that is properly, rather than making him a bit more "kick and shove" - not understanding the pony market? In saying that - his schooling is one of the reasons that the parents bought him as they want the daughter to learn to ride properly and having had him, will make the tranisition to horses in a few years much easier? - that at the fact he can jump enourmous hedges out hunting without batting an eyelid ;)
 
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Yes, it does depend on personality, Mabel is kind of addictive :) so, if for example I would to teach her a half pass, every time my OH would put his legs on, inevitably not evenly, she would go sideways :D
at the moment, her main focus is to move steadily around the school with him on top, with her head stuck forward and neck sloping upwards, so there is no coming out of the front door should she stop more rapidly than anticipated ;)
She does pick up reasonably for me, she does, however have a tendency to become somewhat frantic when challenged - empty Irish head, you see :)
Her extreme willingness to please results in some confusion that, while funny for me, would be rather scary for my OH. When she's not sure what you are asking, she will offer all the things she knows in quick succession, so you might be walking around, her attention dissipates a bit and you ask for something - she hasn't quite heard so she strikes off in left canter, you bring her back and she immediately offers right canter, you say no and she goes to a lovely square halt, etc, etc. Eventually she becomes frustrated, just doesn't know what to and throws a paddy - and there is A LOT of her to be chucking about.
 
My little tb is a bit of a "what do want ? this, this or this and this????" then he gets really upset and starts to jib and hot up. I have found with him - and i know this probably goes against all the rules that when we get to this point i stop unzip my pocket and give him a polo as soon as he stands still - he then eats this, calms down and off we start again, but i then reduce the aids to the smallest amount possible - we are now at the thinking what i want rather than asking by hand or leg stage ie if we want to trot, i think trot and after 3 attempts i will be on the t.r and we will be trotting as nice as you can, canter is his favorite pace and he will offer and offer and offer, but we are now overcoming this as each time he canters i bring him back to walk and go back to practising trot transitions again. I never ever just ride around the outside track of the school - we are constantly changing direction and now the weather is so nice we are doing all of our schooling - out and about. Problem for me is the ground so i am having to pick where we have a few canters. He extends and collects really easily, but if you have too much leg or are a bit heavy with the aids he gose shazbot.

And yes i would love him to be at a fantasticly schooled level, but i want to be the one learning with him to be able to do this.
 
I do kind of think, especially when needing to pass them on or sell them on that you can make the job pretty hard by schooling to a higher standard. I'm in the position now that I need a loan home for my horse and its a real struggle to find someone for him that can actually ride him...and he gets cross if they cant! I did say to a friend the other day that I think I have given him too many buttons for most people to ride him now, they are all the correct buttons but he literally ONLY goes the correct way with the correct aids and knows nothing else. He cant tolerate someone shifting their weight unmeaningly or someone putting a leg on inadvertantly or lifting/dropping hands etc, these mean specific things to him and he gets confused when the rider on top isnt in the same frame of mind! Thankfully yesterday he had someone to view him and I was able to just sit and watch instead of a viewing turning into a dressage lesson! But this was the first person out of many that have been to view. That said, it was mentioned to me by friends that I should try and make him more tolerant and anybodies ride, I dont see why I should though, theres nothing wrong with expecting him to find a home with someone that will ride him to a certain standard, I schooled him correctly for a reason.
 
Interesting question, I think it depends on the type of training you are talking about and looking at why you want more advanced movements taught in relation to a specific horse.
With a young horse, being produced too quickly would put me off buying. If the basics aren't in place then trying to concentrate on higher levels of schooling are like building a house on sand. So for the first year of ridden work, I only want to see a balanced, forward thinking, happy horse with a mouth as soft as butter and a strong back. Responsive to basic aids, able to be ridden in all weather, over different terrain and non spooky.
I also have a h/w coloured cob, he naturally moves well and is anyones ride. He finds certain movements difficult because of the way he is built, short legs, thick neck. All I want from him is to be a novice, happy hack, suitable for nervous beginners or disabled riders because, if, heaven forbid, he ever had to be sold, his value is in his safety and happy bombproof disposition. He does basic schooling to keep him supple, but nothing that would strain his heavy body.

Otherwise, yep, if I had the offer of a skilled trainer to school my horse, then, I'd jump at the chance as a well trained horse is a joy to ride, as long as they were mentally and physically ready.
 
Agree with horserider, I'm not schooling mine to a higher level at the moment because she is a baby. She has spent plenty of time in the school so for now it is all about becoming a safe, sensible, confident hack and building the strength she will need for the future. She is proving a brilliant hack so far leading past all kinds of spooky things and this will do more to secure her future should I ever have to sell than having her jumping or doing lateral work. Only thing we need to master now is standing still and writing for the horses who don't march on while hacking!
 
horserider said:
With a young horse, being produced too quickly would put me off buying. If the basics aren't in place then trying to concentrate on higher levels of schooling are like building a house on sand. So for the first year of ridden work, I only want to see a balanced, forward thinking, happy horse with a mouth as soft as butter and a strong back. Responsive to basic aids, able to be ridden in all weather, over different terrain and non spooky.
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This ^^
 
By a 'higher level' I only mean canter on a given lead and go inside leg to outside rein, flex and step through on corners and listen to rider weight, not piaffe and half-pass! Perhaps I didn't make it too clear! All ours will change lead when asked on the straight but I don't necessarily mean this. I hate getting on anything which is behind the bridle (so wonder who has caused that) and yes, forward and responsive is a must. The sensitive ones I am not really including as their frustration at being ridden differently would make matters worse.

So yes, reasons for not wanting finer tuning are temperamental unsuitability, but as I said, I have two which will pretend to be plods until someone gets on who can do it. NumberThree is a nutter anyway but is nicer to ride now she has had some proper training and Number Four has really benefitted balance-wise and the jump has improved due to her increased rideability and improved way of going. Number Five is worse to ride if you don't insist on going properly :P
 
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"With a young horse, being produced too quickly would put me off buying. If the basics aren't in place then trying to concentrate on higher levels of schooling are like building a house on sand. So for the first year of ridden work, I only want to see a balanced, forward thinking, happy horse with a mouth as soft as butter and a strong back. Responsive to basic aids, able to be ridden in all weather, over different terrain and non spooky. " Definitely, but what about an older one with good temperament and ability to give 'little extra' if asked?
 
brighteyes said:
By a 'higher level' I only mean canter on a given lead and go inside leg to outside rein, flex and step through on corners and listen to rider weight
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I wouldn't consider this "higher level" - to be honest I think the above is what most people would expect after basic schooling. But I think I know what you mean - it's about the horse being more responsive to more subtle aids...
 
There's a difference between teaching them all the correct moves and aids, and teaching them to be tolerant. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I also think being ridden by lots of different people (competent riders obviously) is an important learning point.

Any horse can be schooled correctly to a decent level but some then need to be taught to be less mentally sensitive and more tolerant, depending on their temperament. That's not the same a not physically responding to the aids, but learning respond to the gist of the aid, and learning to ignore mistakes and inconsistencies and not get het up by them. Horse can be very bright creatures (when it suits them;) ) and can tell the difference

As an example, if say three different riders all ask for leg yield in a similar but slightly different way the horse will learn what a general 'leg yield aid' feels like and should respond to the 4th rider asking, in a similar but again slightly different way, rather than throwing the toys out the pram and telling you to naff off.

The nicest horses i've ridden, and everyone I know enjoys riding them, are those well schooled, forward thinking but tolerant and used to other riders. I've ridden others that are very sensitive but too sharp and almost narrowminded to aids("that's not my usual aid, so bugger you if i'll do ask asked") to be truely enjoyable. They are generally those ridden by only one person.

If you are only ever going to be the person riding your horse then it's less of an issue but if you're going to sell then being used to different riders is a skill. And I think you benefit many of the former horses too: a new rider with a different strength or weakness will show things that need worked on, and teach them some generosity and tolerance.
 
I think it is beneficial for even a happy hacking horse to be balanced and responsive in all paces and be able to do basic lateral work, offers a much more pleasurable ride than something stiff and unresponsive even if you only intend to hack out.

People are quite surprised when they get on my little mare at how flexible and forward going she is, just gives such a different feel, I personally prefer it. But I probably do have my horses a little sharper off the leg etc than some people would like, so I'd have to look into that if I decided to sell, how do you make a horse less sharp off the leg?! I like to do as little as possible so they go walk to canter from a touch, but if a novice got on would be a bit of a disaster.
 
Inevitably as your horse becomes better schooled it will (or should!) become sharper off the leg and seat.

This is not great for nervous or novice riders who will inadvertantly squeeze or grip up which tends to result in horse becoming more forwards.

When I was doing a little bit of buying and selling I schooled the horses in a totally different way to how I rode my own as so many people cannot seem to cope with a horse which is truly off the leg.
 
I had the absolute pleasure for about 6 months, until he suddenly passed away, to ride a HOYS ridden class winner (& european runner up). He was a dream of a ride. The only time I had an issue was once out competing he was enjoying himself so much he started powering through from behind into the most elevated trot which I barely held. His balance was beautiful, manners impeccable & he was drop dead gorgeous (15.3hh mahogany bay arab stallion). Fantastic experience.
 
Kaylum said:
Its not particularly what your horse can do, its what you can do.

So many people blame their horses on this board and I see so many photos saying "excuse my positiion". If you know your position is crap do something about it.

So its more about the horse and the rider, not being schooled at a higher level but maybe its about being trained together at a higher level.
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^^^^ agree ^^^^

You could have the highest trained horse in the world but if the rider doesn't know how to ride then it's pointless, frustrating and potentially dangerous.

It annoys me when you see posts with people saying they are sending their horse to a professional for further schooling...well what's the point if the rider isn't going to improve either, if they were that good a rider they wouldn't need to send their horse off, they could do it themselves.
The horse is going to come back more advanced than the jockey and that is when either the horse is ruined or the rider ends up on the floor.
 
Despite being reasonably incompetent, I would rather put the buttons on my horse myself. I have turned down offers to have him schooled by better riders, because I think "what is the point if I can't get him to do the movements afterwards"?

Not to mention, with my midget sized legs on his huge body, anyone with normal legs would put the buttons beyond my reach! ;)
 
I think that you do your horse a favour by ensuring it is as well schooled as your ability allows, for two reasons, it makes the horse more saleable/valuable, helping to ensure it is valued (not necesarily because of $ but because of its education) by its future owners, as it will be more able to do what is required of it, and less likely to end up unwanted.

But also horses do to a large extent adjust to the ability of the owner, they may go less well with some one not experienced, but as that persons experience increases and they learn how to ask the horse to do something the horse remembers and will do what is asked. Or they may be sold to someone with ability/skill. So as the riders ability increases the horse is able to perform at the level required.

Education and training for horses like people, means they have a skill base,and then hopefully a job for life, rather than being unskilled and unwanted.
 
I tend to agree with this and it's what I thought. If you can, you should, and anything which is sensible can and will cope with having buttons which work when pressed correctly and not unless.
 
What 'higher levels' are we speaking of ? While I can't see the point of schooling a horse to Grand Prix if all you want to do is RC, but to have a correctly trained schoolmaster is a joy to ride.
For me, a horse that doesn't trawl round on its fronts, isn't as stiff as a board and needs to lightest touch to respond is going to be a happier, longer lasting ride. Badly trained, the horse is more at risk of breaking down earlier.
If a good trainer schools a horse, the benefit can be felt by the rider afterwards in its way of going.I could never ride like Andrew Nicholson or Oliver Townsend and get a horse to do what they can, but I have ridden horses they competed on. Sheer joy.
A well schooled horse is just that, well schooled. Not a snorting diva that throws its toys out of the pram when not ridden by a pro. While a mediocre rider may not get it to dance, they should have a pleasant experience.
So, yes, if Carl/Mary/Oliver/Andrew etc want to school my horse for me, then I'd say yes please and reap the rewards quite shamelessly.
 
Kallibear said:
There's a difference between teaching them all the correct moves and aids, and teaching them to be tolerant. They aren't mutually exclusive. Agree

I also think being ridden by lots of different people (competent riders obviously) is an important learning point.

Any horse can be schooled correctly to a decent level but some then need to be taught to be less mentally sensitive and more tolerant, depending on their temperament. That's not the same a not physically responding to the aids, but learning respond to the gist of the aid, and learning to ignore mistakes and inconsistencies and not get het up by them. Horse can be very bright creatures (when it suits them;) ) and can tell the difference Agree again

As an example, if say three different riders all ask for leg yield in a similar but slightly different way the horse will learn what a general 'leg yield aid' feels like and should respond to the 4th rider asking, in a similar but again slightly different way, rather than throwing the toys out the pram and telling you to naff off.

The nicest horses i've ridden, and everyone I know enjoys riding them, are those well schooled, forward thinking but tolerant and used to other riders. And they do exist
I've ridden others that are very sensitive but too sharp and almost narrowminded to aids("that's not my usual aid, so bugger you if i'll do ask asked") to be truely enjoyable. They are generally those ridden by only one person.

If you are only ever going to be the person riding your horse then it's less of an issue but if you're going to sell then being used to different riders is a skill. And I think you benefit many of the former horses too: a new rider with a different strength or weakness will show things that need to be worked on, and teach them some generosity and tolerance. Not always possible, I would imagine
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But then are we breeding tolerance out in favour of perfomance - 'all the very best horses are quirky, it's what makes them good' - and all that rubbish?

horserider clarified earlier :p
 
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