Reassuringly Expensive?????

[ISHmad]

I've not seen the ad but £600 a week - my goodness that is WAY over the odds for what some very good trainers charge. LOL at Chavhorse, I'm not JG's wife either but would quite happily send one of my horses to her after seeing the results on here.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Totally agree here and I guess this is the difference between Kelly Marks RAs, they have the total interest of the horse and owner at heart, yes they have to make a living but they are also in it for the love of the horse and too make the world a better place for both horse and owner, and will take their time and not rip the owner off in the process but get the results at an affordable price, otherwise they make their talents only available to the wealthy and are not in it for the good of the horse.

Not all Kelly's RA's. Used to share livery with one. Her horse was a nightmare to hack with, spooky and unconfident, also liable to tank off on grass. Remember once leading a yearing onto the yard with a mare. Little one jumped when an iron pole clattered onto a pile of building materials. RA woman ran across the yard, grabbed the filly, shouting 'instructions' and towed her 'with energy' to the stable.
Er... a quiet rub and walking on as though nothing had happened would have been fine really.

Quite honestly, there are great people out there who would do lovely job in starting a youngster. However, sometimes recommendations from other people aren't enough. The new owner of my youngster was very disappointed after she returned from the local trainer who backed her. New owner didn't agree with the advice given as it wasn't appropriate for her circumstances and when she tried to follow the plan it caused problems. Horse then came back to me on loan, and I followed the advice I learnt from MP with a previous horse. It worked. The youngster is a delight.
The money I spent sending a horse to MP several years ago has repaid itself in that I learnt so much useful stuff which has been carried over to others I've had.

 

[Gluttonforpunishment]

Think there is a lot of unneccessary sniping at Betterhalf!!

I don't care whose wife she is, why isn't she allowed a voice without being shot down. For heavens sakes leave her alone.

I'm amazed she still posts considering the flack she gets. Not once have I seen her try and hide / pretend she isn't married to MP but there is always one who has to point it out in a snide manner in response to her.

I don't know her or MP before something asks just fed up with the bullying attitude.

Sorry to hijack the post but this just really got my goat

 

[Sandylou]

I contacted MP once as I was having an issue with my horse. Everything I was told made complete sense and it was suggested that MP visit me one day and work with the horse until he tires mentally (apparently can be seen in the eye), which could happen after just 2 hours. This would cost me over £400! The other option was to send my horse to MP for a minimum of 2 weeks at £600-ish per week excluding VAT! There would be an assessment after the initial 2 weeks and it would then be decided whether he needed to stay longer or not.
I again found myself in a black hole desperate for an answer and with nowhere to turn because I could not afford this! I was seriously considering getting a bank loan - yes my horsey problems would be solved but I probs wouldn't have a OH to go home to as money is tight as it is without having to repay a loan!
Unfortunately many horse owners don't have this kind of money and it saddens me that people who are absolutely desperate cannot get the help they need from people who can help! As other poster have said, a vast amount of horses are sent away for schooling only to come back with bigger problems because these 'trainers' are cheaper.....maybe ultimately they will end up with MP but wouldn't it be nice if MP could charge a more realistic price to prevent the damage and heartache caused by these dodgy 'trainers'?
Better Half - Is there not a way that you could make your services more accessible to the everyday owner? This way MP would not be our "last resort".

 

[Chavhorse]

Glutton For Punishment,

Actually when BH started to post on the forum she was not open about the fact that she was MP's wife, hence when people found out they all felt a bit had and pretty angry especially those who had been recommended to try MP as he was such a great trainer!

I will admit she has learnt her lesson and is now open about the fact she has a vested interest.

Also read some of her comments about Monty Roberts, kelly Marks and IH in general this thread is a pretty good example http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=421928 not nice and not in my opinion professional.

Sandy Lou - there are some great trainers out there who do not charge £57 per day for training and £24.43 for livery both excluding VAT with a minimum stay of 3 - 4 weeks.

 

[Kaylum]

I only know what I have read about MP. Some quite good articles in Horse and Rider I think a while ago.

But surely if people will pay that amount then its up to them. Or am I missing the point?

 

[better half]

Would also be interested in where that comes from, my ex-husband was a management trainer and always said it was about 45 minutes, so all his company's courses had a built-in tea break at the appropriate intervals!

I found this and thought it might back up what I have observed over the year, about attention span.

I was told that I was selfish not to share what I have seen over the years, I am happy to try to explain, but I am not good with words and do not wish to offend.
Chave horse . I also stand by my pressure halter phobia as they are not ‘for the good of the horse’, only sold as a quick fix.


• Focused attention is a short-term response to a stimulus that attracts attention. The attention span for this level is very brief, with a maximum span, without any lapse at all, that may be as short as 8 seconds.[2] This level of attention is attracted by a ringing telephone, or other unexpected occurrence. After a few seconds, it is likely that the person will look away, return to a previous task, or think about something else.
• Sustained attention is the level of attention that produces the consistent results on a task over time. If the task is handling fragile objects, such as hand-washing delicate crystal glasses, then a person showing sustained attention will stay on task and will not break any dishes, but a person who loses focus may break a glass or may stop washing the dishes to do something else. Most healthy teenagers and adults are unable to sustain attention on one thing for more than about 20 minutes at a time, although they can choose repeatedly to re-focus on the same thing.[2] This ability to renew attention permits people to "pay attention" to things that last for more than a few minutes, such as long movies.
Attention span, as measured by sustained attention, or the time spent continuously on task, varies with age. Older children are capable of longer periods of attention than younger children.[3]
For time-on-task measurements, the type of activity used in the test affects the results, as people are generally capable of a longer attention span when they are doing something that they find enjoyable or intrinsically motivating.[2] Attention is also increased if the person is able to perform the task fluently, compared to a person who has difficulty performing the task, or to the same person when he or she is just learning the task. Fatigue, hunger, noise, and emotional stress reduce time on task. Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.[2]
After losing attention from a topic, a person may restore it by taking a rest, doing a different kind of activity, changing mental focus, or deliberately choosing to re-focus on the first topic.

 

[xspiralx]

Also read some of her comments about Monty Roberts, kelly Marks and IH in general this thread is a pretty good example http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=421928 not nice and not in my opinion professional.

.

Sorry, don't see the problem - she seems pretty against pressure halters, which is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Many people on this forum are anti the NH brigade - she's not using the post to promote MP in any way that I can see.

As for advertising his services on this thread, she didn't write the OP, and is surely entitled to post an opinion about something she knows a lot about?

If someone posted a similar discussion thread about JG or one of the other acknowledged professionals on this forum, I'm sure nobody would have a problem with them posting in defence of their pricing structure and training system.

Personally I've heard nothing but good things about MP but I think his prices are too expensive, and if I needed help I'd turn to a non celebrity trainer for a fraction of the cost.

 

[Chavhorse]

I found this and thought it might back up what I have observed over the year, about attention span.

I was told that I was selfish not to share what I have seen over the years, I am happy to try to explain, but I am not good with words and do not wish to offend.
Chave horse . I also stand by my pressure halter phobia as they are not ‘for the good of the horse’, only sold as a quick fix.


• Focused attention is a short-term response to a stimulus that attracts attention. The attention span for this level is very brief, with a maximum span, without any lapse at all, that may be as short as 8 seconds.[2] This level of attention is attracted by a ringing telephone, or other unexpected occurrence. After a few seconds, it is likely that the person will look away, return to a previous task, or think about something else.
• Sustained attention is the level of attention that produces the consistent results on a task over time. If the task is handling fragile objects, such as hand-washing delicate crystal glasses, then a person showing sustained attention will stay on task and will not break any dishes, but a person who loses focus may break a glass or may stop washing the dishes to do something else. Most healthy teenagers and adults are unable to sustain attention on one thing for more than about 20 minutes at a time, although they can choose repeatedly to re-focus on the same thing.[2] This ability to renew attention permits people to "pay attention" to things that last for more than a few minutes, such as long movies.
Attention span, as measured by sustained attention, or the time spent continuously on task, varies with age. Older children are capable of longer periods of attention than younger children.[3]
For time-on-task measurements, the type of activity used in the test affects the results, as people are generally capable of a longer attention span when they are doing something that they find enjoyable or intrinsically motivating.[2] Attention is also increased if the person is able to perform the task fluently, compared to a person who has difficulty performing the task, or to the same person when he or she is just learning the task. Fatigue, hunger, noise, and emotional stress reduce time on task. Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.[2]
After losing attention from a topic, a person may restore it by taking a rest, doing a different kind of activity, changing mental focus, or deliberately choosing to re-focus on the first topic.

If by Chave Horse you mean me then please explain away, the only things that have offended me in the past have been

1.) Your Viral marketing campaign before someone pointed out that you had a vested interest, as I said above you have now put this right so thank you.

2) some of the things you have said about IK, Kelly Marks and Monty Roberts in previous Threads. Aboslutly you are quite free to have an opinion on Pressure halter phobia, but when it trips over into vitriol regarding Monty Roberts, kelly Marks and IH in general then sorry but as a "fellow Professional" I think it merely demeans your argument.

Your Back Up regarding attention span is interesting as it seems to say that "Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.[2]
After losing attention from a topic, a person may restore it by taking a rest, doing a different kind of activity, changing mental focus, or deliberately choosing to re-focus on the first topic." whereas your original posts were saying 3 minutes (unless of course you were relating this to 2 year old children), which was I think why people were questioning your research. Would be interesting to see the source of this information.

Anyhow the long and the short is that of course if someone wants to send a horse to your husband and can afford the cost of the training all power to them and you everyone is happy. However the comment regarding if you have a "valuable or sentimentally valuable" horse then you will pay top dollar is an unfortunate one.

 

[Rouletterose]

I found this and thought it might back up what I have observed over the year, about attention span.

I was told that I was selfish not to share what I have seen over the years, I am happy to try to explain, but I am not good with words and do not wish to offend.
Chave horse . I also stand by my pressure halter phobia as they are not ‘for the good of the horse’, only sold as a quick fix.


• Focused attention is a short-term response to a stimulus that attracts attention. The attention span for this level is very brief, with a maximum span, without any lapse at all, that may be as short as 8 seconds.[2] This level of attention is attracted by a ringing telephone, or other unexpected occurrence. After a few seconds, it is likely that the person will look away, return to a previous task, or think about something else.
• Sustained attention is the level of attention that produces the consistent results on a task over time. If the task is handling fragile objects, such as hand-washing delicate crystal glasses, then a person showing sustained attention will stay on task and will not break any dishes, but a person who loses focus may break a glass or may stop washing the dishes to do something else. Most healthy teenagers and adults are unable to sustain attention on one thing for more than about 20 minutes at a time, although they can choose repeatedly to re-focus on the same thing.[2] This ability to renew attention permits people to "pay attention" to things that last for more than a few minutes, such as long movies.
Attention span, as measured by sustained attention, or the time spent continuously on task, varies with age. Older children are capable of longer periods of attention than younger children.[3]
For time-on-task measurements, the type of activity used in the test affects the results, as people are generally capable of a longer attention span when they are doing something that they find enjoyable or intrinsically motivating.[2] Attention is also increased if the person is able to perform the task fluently, compared to a person who has difficulty performing the task, or to the same person when he or she is just learning the task. Fatigue, hunger, noise, and emotional stress reduce time on task. Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.[2]
After losing attention from a topic, a person may restore it by taking a rest, doing a different kind of activity, changing mental focus, or deliberately choosing to re-focus on the first topic.

The fact that a young horse only holds short attention spans is well known, I have for years when schooling a young horse changed the movement etc to something the horse finds easy, to gain attention and confidence, then gone back with a fresh mind to what I had been trying to teach 15 mins before. I would say most established riders know this fact, I certainly don't need to pay £600 per week with most of the time you saying ah but we will probably need the horse for at least two weeks....£1200 and for what?

My trainer is fantastic, weekly charge would be in the region of £160 (although I've never used this) training rate is £40.

Our youngsters went to be backed to the same person who has done over 500 horses in their time, highly recommended by everyone I know all accross the disciplines, she charges £175.00 per week, and doesn't need to advertise!!

Re-thinking your charges might get you more business?

 

[Chavhorse]

Sorry, don't see the problem - she seems pretty against pressure halters, which is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Many people on this forum are anti the NH brigade - she's not using the post to promote MP in any way that I can see.

As for advertising his services on this thread, she didn't write the OP, and is surely entitled to post an opinion about something she knows a lot about?

If someone posted a similar discussion thread about JG or one of the other acknowledged professionals on this forum, I'm sure nobody would have a problem with them posting in defence of their pricing structure and training system.

Personally I've heard nothing but good things about MP but I think his prices are too expensive, and if I needed help I'd turn to a non celebrity trainer for a fraction of the cost.

Xpriral I have no issue at all about BH giving her opinion regarding pressure halters, free world however;

Quote:
Originally Posted by better half
Ticketyboo - Do you not think Join up is a gimmick! So they can sell more pressure halters and courses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by better half
I am glad you found your confidence and it worked for you. Yes, I did the MRPC course in1996 and with experience have move on. When you stat to question the wall goes up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by better half
The IH site is very censored so you'll get a very narrow view from there, thats why this forum is so good, if the advice to save money, time and the horse/OP relationship helps then it's good to talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by better half
Pressure halters can cause any horse to rear! it is flooding 'kill or cure approach to horse training'. You can complain once your horse has gone over backwards in 'professional' hands you may get a free book, as free helper course place or the latest is a complaints No. with a phone call from the RA.

Once a horse has hardened to a pressure halter you then have a bigger problem. Take your time and learn ground work rules but a pressure halter is not needed. £61 a time no wonder they want you to buy one, but it is not for the good of the horse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by better half
Did you let them know you had a problem with the RA's 'help' they are very good at making people feel it's their horse 'the worst one they have ever seen'. It is to easy to blame the horse not looking at the training methods used. This is so they can sell more halter and course rather than looking in to better ways that are about.

There are some pretty harsh comments about IH here, and not I am not a die hard IH fan at all just think it is a bit off.

I have never said that she was advertising on this particular thread at all, I have quite openly stated that she is now open about her connection to MP but when she initially started to post she was not quite so open hence a lot of her original posts got pulled!

I have also heard nothing bad about MP and as celebrity trainers goes he seems to be one of the good guys, it is unfortunate that he does not post on here himself as BH has admitted she is not good with words so often she does not give the best impression of her husbands work or ethos.

 

[Chavhorse]

The fact that a young horse only holds short attention spans is well known, I have for years when schooling a young horse changed the movement etc to something the horse finds easy, to gain attention and confidence, then gone back with a fresh mind to what I had been trying to teach 15 mins before. I would say most established riders know this fact, I certainly don't need to pay £600 per week with most of the time you saying ah but we will probably need the horse for at least two weeks....£1200 and for what?

My trainer is fantastic, weekly charge would be in the region of £160 (although I've never used this) training rate is £40.

Our youngsters went to be backed to the same person who has done over 500 horses in their time, highly recommended by everyone I know all accross the disciplines, she charges £175.00 per week, and doesn't need to advertise!!

Re-thinking your charges might get you more business?

Rouletterose - absolutely one of the first things my trainer established was what he refers to as "the safe zone" for my horse a set of movements that he feels 100% confident in and able to do easily so that when we hit a wall with something new we can go back to the "safe zone" to give him a boost of "I can do this" then back to the new stuff again with renewed confidence and attention....rinse and repeat.

My trainer charges 650 per month (300 of which is livery charges) and for this they get trained daily by him personally. He also does not need to advertise for either livery or training and has a long waiting list, although for anyone in dire straights room will always be found.

 

[xspiralx]

CH - I did read all her responses, and as I say, I don't think having a critical view of IH is a problem - she's no difference to loads of other users on here, many of whom are professionals too.

 

[better half]

MP started in Newmarket at Luca Cumani’s yard when Frankie Dettori was also an apprentice. He rode and looked after a ‘lazy’ horse called Kahyasi as a 2yr old. Kahayasi went on to win the Epsom Derby he also worked a small trainers called Matt Mcormack who had the biggest winner of his career at the Royal Ascot Jersey Stakes. MP would say he was just a small part in a good team.

I am biased, as noted but what if he is 100 x better than average but only costs 4 x as much. You could not get Frankie Dettori out to help for £240.00.

Thanks for the recap Chavhorse I don’t hear of any good work obviously as most horses I hear of have already had ‘help’. Why try to compare him every time he is mentioned they as not doing the same thing.

 

[SO1]

I can see how it might cost £600 a week.

Top of the range part livery might be £100 a week. That leaves £500 left for training. If MP worked with the horse for 2 hours a day every day (I am not sure how many hours he would work each horse for) this would be £35.50 an hour, which is not unreasonable if you think that a lot of normal riding instructors charge £30 an hour, and that the horse might be difficult or dangerous which is why it has ended up with MP in the first place.

I don't know how people manage to make money only charging £125 a week to do backing if the horse is on stabled livery or perhaps they are only working with each horse for half an hour a day?

Why should MP not earn a profit, I am sure lots of the top trainers in eventing/dressage are not cheap either if you can actually get them doing the work rather than one of their assistants.

However if I was spending that amount of money I would want some guarantee that my horses' problems would be resolved and also some after sales support!

 

[Chavhorse]

MP started in Newmarket at Luca Cumani’s yard when Frankie Dettori was also an apprentice. He rode and looked after a ‘lazy’ horse called Kahyasi as a 2yr old. Kahayasi went on to win the Epsom Derby he also worked a small trainers called Matt Mcormack who had the biggest winner of his career at the Royal Ascot Jersey Stakes. MP would say he was just a small part in a good team.

I am biased, as noted but what if he is 100 x better than average but only costs 4 x as much. You could not get Frankie Dettori out to help for £240.00.

Thanks for the recap Chavhorse I don’t hear of any good work obviously as most horses I hear of have already had ‘help’. Why try to compare him every time he is mentioned they as not doing the same thing.

Well as Dettori is a world class jockey then him coming out for £240.00 would be a bit doubtful. Bit of a strange analogy to be honest.

Anyhow leaving all the other stuff behind lets get back to the more interesting subject.

Which I will admit is causing me to scratch my head somewhat.

You were saying that the "average attention span of a human is 3 minutes, about the length of a song" then posted some back up that to my mind appeared contradictory to your original posts as it says that using "Sustained Attention" i.e. the level of attention that produces the consistent results on a task over time (I would say that this type of attention was the one required for working with horses) then most healthy teenagers and adults are unable to sustain attention on one thing for more than about 20 minutes at a time.

So I read that as a healthy teenager or adult can sustain attention for up to 20 mins, before having to refocus on the same thing again.

It also says that the type of activity used in the test affects the results, as people are generally capable of a longer attention span when they are doing something that they find enjoyable or intrinsically motivating (Again I would place working with horses in this category), and that attention is also increased if the person is able to perform the task fluently, compared to a person who has difficulty performing the task, or to the same person when he or she is just learning the task.

But again it states that the Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.

So Unless you are referring to Focused Attention which does indeed state that the attention span level for this is very brief with a maximum span that may be as short as 8 seconds but this is attributed to stimulus like a ringing telephone so not what I would consider the same "attention" you would use for working with horses at all.

I would be interested in seeing the back up for the three minute analogy you used earlier as if it is correct then I will have some re-thinking to do on how I schedule my training sessions.

 

[better half]

I am writing this as best I can with out wanting to sound at all chipy. Science and scientists do not have all the answers. In 1997 we had a horse into stay that was by Vatout he had the most beautiful paces he got into trouble with his training so was gelded then sent to top yard as he became more dangerous to handle he was turned away and then no one wanted to go near him. When he got to Michael after long ‘sad story’ he cribbed. The owner gave the horse to Michael to get right.
I had noticed that some ‘problem horses liked to put straw in their water and along with Michael’s thoughts on lime stone soil grass helping some cribbers we thought there must be a connection with digestion and cribbing. I fed this horse 6 Rennie just before I gave him his hay each time. Counting cribs per min before and after Rennie. The results were amazing so I contacted an old school friend of MP’s that was then Head of behaviour at one of the Universities.
He said ‘It is amazing how brilliant Ideas come from simple sources’ and after investigations said there was no research into stomach acid and cribbing at that point. He ran a 100 horse trial and wrote a paper on this, which confirmed cribbing was linked to diet.
My point is that things happen then science tries to explain them some times. When MP did large demo’s in Denmark, Copenhagen Vet School wanted to work with MP as they could not work out if he was systematically desensitising or flooding as the process was so fast. I am not a scientist but have observed many things that have not yet been explained, it just is.
The horse went on to compete at the National Championships at Stoneleigh in the new home that he got once he left MP. We ended up with large court costs after MP was not given any credit for the Idea which went on the market as Settlex. The best solutions is really to feed more good hay or grass.

 

[better half]

Which I will admit is causing me to scratch my head somewhat.

You were saying that the "average attention span of a human is 3 minutes, about the length of a song" then posted some back up that to my mind appeared contradictory to your original posts as it says that using "Sustained Attention" i.e. the level of attention that produces the consistent results on a task over time (I would say that this type of attention was the one required for working with horses) then most healthy teenagers and adults are unable to sustain attention on one thing for more than about 20 minutes at a time.

So I read that as a healthy teenager or adult can sustain attention for up to 20 mins, before having to refocus on the same thing again.

It also says that the type of activity used in the test affects the results, as people are generally capable of a longer attention span when they are doing something that they find enjoyable or intrinsically motivating (Again I would place working with horses in this category), and that attention is also increased if the person is able to perform the task fluently, compared to a person who has difficulty performing the task, or to the same person when he or she is just learning the task.

But again it states that the Common estimates for sustained attention to a freely chosen task range from about five minutes for a two-year-old child, to a maximum of around 20 minutes in older children and adults.

So Unless you are referring to Focused Attention which does indeed state that the attention span level for this is very brief with a maximum span that may be as short as 8 seconds but this is attributed to stimulus like a ringing telephone so not what I would consider the same "attention" you would use for working with horses at all.

I would be interested in seeing the back up for the three minute analogy you used earlier as if it is correct then I will have some re-thinking to do on how I schedule my training sessions.

I have been looking into this more, one of my boy's has a solid attention span and can't be distracted he is very academic, the other is easily distracted with very short attention span but very musical. I do think seeing how different they are that it is something you are born with, but can work on as you get older.