'Red Tractor' farm cruelty - can you believe the farmers defence?

[lhotse]

I work for one of the major supermarkets. They exploit everyone, from farmers to children in third world countries, to their own staff.
I refuse to shop there for my meat and veg. I buy all my fruit and veg from my local greengrocer who seeks the best and most local produce he can find. My potatoes come direct from the farm just up the road via my local agricultural merchant.

My meat comes from my excellent local butcher who only stocks rare breed, freerange pork from named suppliers. He knows where all his beef comes from, what breed and even the cheese I buy there is from a local producer, who makes single gloucester from his herd of pedigree gloucester cattle. My eggs come from my own freerange hens.

My butter comes straight from the farm via my friend who has the cheese stall at the local farmers markets. The farmers market means I can buy venison sausages from deer off the local estate, freerange chickens from 4 miles up the road and lamb from the same place. All this food is totally traceable, I can go and see the chickens and lambs if I so wish. It's produced by farmers with a real passion about stock management and the continuation of our rare breeds. The flavour speaks for itself.

The surprising thing about shopping like this is that I am actually saving myself money as well, for too long the supermarkets have led us to believe that they offer the best prices, when in actual fact they are more expensive.

So, vote with your feet. Shop locally from small independant suppliers, support your local farmers market. Make it known that you will not tolerate bland intensively raised pork and chicken.

 

[Milanesa]

Ihotse- here here!

 

[Miss L Toe]

Even before supermarket powers, there have been similar cases, worse than this, there will always be cruelty in farming and with any animal keepers. It is something to do with human nature.

 

[mon]

Sadly agree, also always be murderers and burglars

 

[PRE3]

I work for one of the major supermarkets. They exploit everyone, from farmers to children in third world countries, to their own staff.
I refuse to shop there for my meat and veg. I buy all my fruit and veg from my local greengrocer who seeks the best and most local produce he can find. My potatoes come direct from the farm just up the road via my local agricultural merchant.

My meat comes from my excellent local butcher who only stocks rare breed, freerange pork from named suppliers. He knows where all his beef comes from, what breed and even the cheese I buy there is from a local producer, who makes single gloucester from his herd of pedigree gloucester cattle. My eggs come from my own freerange hens.

My butter comes straight from the farm via my friend who has the cheese stall at the local farmers markets. The farmers market means I can buy venison sausages from deer off the local estate, freerange chickens from 4 miles up the road and lamb from the same place. All this food is totally traceable, I can go and see the chickens and lambs if I so wish. It's produced by farmers with a real passion about stock management and the continuation of our rare breeds. The flavour speaks for itself.

The surprising thing about shopping like this is that I am actually saving myself money as well, for too long the supermarkets have led us to believe that they offer the best prices, when in actual fact they are more expensive.

So, vote with your feet. Shop locally from small independant suppliers, support your local farmers market. Make it known that you will not tolerate bland intensively raised pork and chicken.

Well said

 

[jendie]

What an awful story. I do feel for the farmer's family.

Pigs are fantastic animals. We have two and they are as intelligent and affectionate as any dog or horse I've ever owned. They are easily trained and are naturally very clean. Their treatment in factory farms is atrocious. I agree the supermarkets have to take a lot of the blame. They cut the profit margins so much that pig rearing is barely worth a farmer's time. Humanely pts an injured animal would be an expense many would consider extravagant> we have to blame ourselves.

 

[Alec Swan]

.............

An excellent post. Supermarkets, despite the bilge which they dish out, are driven by profit, they vie with each other, they buy as cheaply as they can, and those who suffer are their suppliers and customers. The High Street or Farm Gate trader relies upon his reputation, a reputation which supermarkets don't have (well not one that's worth preserving!!).

Alec.

 

[FRESHMAN]

I agree with the problems regarding the battle our good farmers are facing. & as long as the consumers are apathetic we will have no change. Actually I will re phrase that. Conditions will get worse. If we do not vote with our feet against animal conditions whilst alive, & ending up on our plates, the decent farmers will have no option other than to give up. They will be REPLACED by real hard nosed barstewards that do not give a flying fig. Just like the customer at the end of the chain. This is a never ending circle & it is spinning down hill fast. It will not be long before we are on a par with Countries like China. Why can people not understand that if you wish to eat meat. Have a bloody conscience. (sp) ps I am not veggie but I do care about the quality of any animals life, & death.

 

[Trinity Fox]

I have not read every reply but I have to say it is very sad for this farmer to take his own life because of this.

I also have to say it is still not right for animals being treated in this way,my dads family was pretty poor when he was young he got a part time job in the slaughterhouse and even then he says there was a couple of wicked people working there who used to revel in the pain of the animals and enjoy mistreating them.
I feel that if you are the type of person who wants to abuse animals this may be a trade you are attracted to, this type of behaviour has happened several times if there was a law brought in that said all slaughterhouses had to have cctv in operation that was checked it would stamp this out this would also allow consumers to feel better about what they were buying.

It is nice to be able to now where all your produce comes from many of us in the country are able to do this but for most of the population this is just not possible.
Also whoever commented on most farmers caring for animals I have to say where we are there are several who really do not look after their animals especially if one is down or ill they just leave them, my parents have removed or looked after several animals after contacting farmer who did nothing they were no longer willing to watch them die a lingering death in the field.
I have stock next to my horses fields and they dont even bother to pick up the dead stock.

 

[BBH]

Whilst I agree with all the sentiments about animal welfare and the greedy supermarkets the biggest hindrance I can see progressing these issues is that the poor have to be fed. There will always be a huge market for very cheap food at any cost and with no consideration as to how its reared / produced. For some people education isn't going to work when their sole interest is feeding themselves on a few pounds a week.

I am not sure how we would get around that tbh.

 

[mon]

Control population growth and building on productive farm land.

 

[perfect11s]

Control population growth and building on productive farm land.

Oh dont be so sensible !!!!! yes and I totally agree but sadly its a nettle they wont grasp , we could go along way to improve things but even sensible policys like cutting welfare are stoped before they get off the ground by the handwringing liberal elite,
so we pay for the feckless and work shy to sit around breeding and import hard working motivated foreign labour to do the work .....

 

[mon]

D
Isn't think I was sensible! But then I do come from a small family, mum only child, dads brother killed as teenager, so only child in my eyes, sister no family and I only have one son, so what is earnt not split in to small factions on inheritance! And wouldn't know what a holiday is, who would look after all our animals? No wish as a farmer to get large enough to employ anybody as proved not all trustworty, not worth hassle.

 

[Magicmillbrook]

I agree with this. The problem I think lies in the greedy supermarkets who are ever cutting the farmers paltry profits. It's expensive to keep animals well - it's pretty labour intensive, yet the supermarkets always seem happy to screw the most profit they can by underpaying the 'grower'. It was the same case with chickens.
I had a friend with links to a pig farm (not the one in question) and she said the conditions did look horrible, overcrowded pens and lots of filth. The staff felt for the poor pigs and that the slaughter house was a welcome release for them.
Blame the supermarkets and 'us' the consumers for buying cheap meats and driving prices down.

Here here

 

[bobbydazzler]

I had heard that some animal rights activists had secured themselves some part time work on this farm, and that it was them carrying out these acts and recording them.
I don't know if this is true, but they surely must have a huge amount of willpower to stand by and record this footage as i most certainly could not have stood by and watched.

 

[hackneylass2]

Maybe if they had intervened before things got to the stage that they did, it would have been to the benefit of all?

Jendie, Humanely destroy (pts not same thing) an extravagance? Oh my! Surely no human with an ounce of empathy would have turned a blind eye to such cruelty.

In any business you can't throw good money after bad, its been a case of 'diversify or die' for many farmers for years. Same as other businesses in other sectors, its a harsh climate.

 

[nortonl]

Maybe if they had intervened before things got to the stage that they did, it would have been to the benefit of all?.

By waiting a couple of months go gather enough evidence that the crimes were undeniable, it was possible to secure convictions against those responsible - putting an end to years of such behaviour.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179449/Thug-workers-battered-pigs-death-metal-bars-plastic-pipes-hell-hole-farm-face-jail.html

 

[BBH]

By waiting a couple of months go gather enough evidence that the crimes were undeniable, it was possible to secure convictions against those responsible - putting an end to years of such behaviour.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179449/Thug-workers-battered-pigs-death-metal-bars-plastic-pipes-hell-hole-farm-face-jail.html

I hope they go down for a very long time.

These people do a disservice for all the legitimate farmers who do care about welfare as its hard for the public to know who does raise ethical meat.

 

[Venevidivici]

I echo the sentiments above but there are some individuals who will always find an outlet for their twisted evil acts. They probably grew up from someone like I knew at junior school,a boy who scooped my tadpoles out of the baby bathtub in the garden,dropped them on the drive and pressed lit matches against them I was 7 and remember it to this day-ran inside,crying,to tell
my mum. She sent him home&told his parents. The people at this pig farm are like the ones who microwave kittens,throw dogs from moving cars,hack horses in fields to bits etc etc. They often graduate onto harming people. Low intelligence is often a factor and an upbringing indifferent to pain and suffering of others. My sympathies to the farmer's family and the pigs.

 

[Pale Rider]

At the end of the day what went on this farm was the responsibility of the farmer, there is no getting away from that. However, it is not always possible to know what each individual member of staff or groups of staff even may be doing. Occasionally, a 'bad apple' can act in a way which may cause the destruction of an otherwise satisfactory state of affairs. Even so the buck stops with 'the farmer'.

For most ordinary people, to suddenly become the focus of such adverse publicity is stressful enough, but to couple this with the potential loss of a business, hard to maintain even in good times, adds to the burden. Farmers, who often struggle in isolation, taking their own life is frequently the result. A sad and desperate situation, my thoughts and sympathy are with the family.

Recently, the lot of the primary producer, has been high profile. The role of the major supermarkets often becomes the target of those trying to change things.

To balance, cheap food a demand of the consumer, a realistic price for the producer together with a margin for the processors and subseqently a profit for the supermarket is difficult. Particularly when the whole chain is left in the hands of what we call 'The Market'.

The Market, as we have seen in other spheres is a poor way of doing business, as far form working as it should, is constantly beset by speculators who influence 'the market' both by legitimate and illigitimate means. To the detriment of everyone who has to put their trust in and rely on 'the market'.

In agriculture particularly, there have been numerous attempts by successive governments to somehow, regulate and provide a fair and balanced situation, where the production, distribution and consumption of our most basic requirement, food, is concerned. None of which have been fit for purpose and become increasingly so as 'the market' is left to its self.

Farm incomes are heavily subsidized in many sectors (not the pig industry, I believe). Which result in feast for some and famine for others. Supermarkets make huge profits. The taxpayer/consumer is being hit twice, in effect, and yet still primary producers are facing hardship.

For the primary producer there is a cost of production, which can be measured, therefore, if anyone wants to buy these products be it milk, pig meat, eggs, barley, wheat whatever, there should be a guaranteed minimum price. What occurs after that is down to the processors and supermarkets and lastly the consumer who can at least, vote with their feet.

 

[Alec Swan]

Pale Rider,

a basically well put together post, though influenced by rather emotive and simplistic observations.

"The Market", as you rightly say, is a poor way for us to mete out a norm or a balance, but the problem is, that's all that we have. Installing protectionism will open the floodgates to yet more corruption, and those who farm would very soon be in the position of the accused (I farm, and I speak from experience)!

Specifically with the dairy industry, we in the UK are wringing out a dry sponge. The Continent have ploughed in massive investment into their dairy industries, and we simply can't compete with their supplied bulk prices of milk; it's vital that we learn how to, though. We cannot allow our dairy industry to die. We will be held to ransom, and believe me, WE WILL.

The Common Market, as it was, was a stroke of genius, on the part of someone. The EU (as the CM became) has been an unmitigated disaster, but that's a debate for another time.

The simple facts, are this;

The Supermarkets, the controlling and generally callous major buyers, support British farming, but only because it will give them a degree of PC value, and it would follow that they end up with Brownie points, from the British public.

Our basic food can be sourced abroad, and at a percentage of the cost of our own production costs. The problem with that, is that if we don't "Protect" our own capabilities, then we end up being held to ransom, by those who do.

Right, back to the theme of this thread; with the pressures which Supermarkets are under, as they compete with each other to show their shareholders ever greater profits, they are bound to drive down the buying in costs. That's a fact, and one which we cannot ignore.

Sooooooo, with our buyers driving down their costs, which means an arterial bleed for the supplier, then the smaller suppliers will cut corners, turn their backs on humanity (and their livestock), and attempt a survival package. There will be casualties, two legged and four. I wish that it was otherwise, but it isn't.

I apologise for the tirade, but it's a subject which occupies much of my thinking time!

Who do you see as responsible? I think that it's a matter of collective guilt.

Yours was a very good post, and I only wish that more would at least THINK about it.

Alec.

 

[Miss L Toe]

I was in agriculture in the 1960/70's "glory days" when the mantra was production, and more production.
Even in those days of guaranteed income there were welfare cases due to farmers not making profit, ie income did not cover expenditure, this causes stress.

 

[happyhunter123]

The cruelty shown here is needless cruelty. Normally, I don't trust these animal rights videos-their aim, is after all to persuade people to give up animal products and they will do anything to try and get people to do this. But the practice at this farm is shocking. There is no excuse to kill pigs like that (for very young piglets hitting them on the head may be relatively painless, but for larger pigs like that this is a cruel method). Why not just invest in a humane bolt gun? It would do the job quickly, easily and painlessly. I don't doubt that ill pigs need to be killed, it's just the way in which you do it.

 

[Pale Rider]

Alec,

Thanks for your comments, appreciated.

Two themes running through this thread at the moment, the first one being the cruelty issue.

There will always be incidents like this where an animal or animals in the system will be subjected to overt cruelty on occasion, no matter how well run the establishment.

An example I have first hand experience of is this. When I was an agricultural student in the 1970's a tutor at the college was sacked for hitting sows with an iron bar. There was no reason for this other than the man enjoyed causing pain. He was exposed by some students who had seen what was happening and reported it to the college authorities. This was a well known and highly respected place and is still high profile today. Welfare was high on the list of priorities, yet this man slipped through. On the up side he hadn't been there long, but no one knew where he went after that.
The point is that these people are always about and do these sort of things and are rarely prosecuted.

I know it is a long time since the demise of the Marketing Boards and prices guaranteed, but we are now far more sophisticated as an industry and society at large. I feel that the corruption you fear would be and could be policed effectively. There will always be those up for some fiddle or other, it's going on now in all spheres and always will. Only when it becomes politically expedient does it get high profile. Highlighting benefit fraud, when you want to cut benefits, or bank frauds when you want to tax or reorganize banks.

With regard to buyers driving down prices in the face of cheaper imports from the EU and perhaps elsewhere. You cannot drive the price below the cost of production, and expect the producer to carry on. It hasn't happened in any other industry and it shouldn't in agriculture. This has happened so far because farmers to some extent are subsidized which gives buyers more opportunity to push down on prices.

If the dairy industry cannot compete with imported fresh milk with all the additional transport costs, then could it really be allowed to continue? My argument would be yes, it could, because realistically imported milk would be difficult to supply consistently at a cheap price. One only has to look at mushroom imports and drastic price fluctuations when the weather is bad in the Irish Sea.

Protectionism does exist on the continent to some extent and is tolerated by Governments. For example supermarkets in France have restrictions on certain items they are allowed to sell, to protect small retailers.

I know you say that the current system is the only one we've got, but we have had other systems in the past, and believe me, we will have different in the future. It will be interesting to see how things progress.

 

[Pale Rider]

I was in agriculture in the 1960/70's "glory days" when the mantra was production, and more production.
Even in those days of guaranteed income there were welfare cases due to farmers not making profit, ie income did not cover expenditure, this causes stress.

This causes bankruptcy, which is the fate of any other business which cannot compete. Farmers can at least sell up if they cannot make a living.

 

[Miss L Toe]

.... "bankruptcy ... "which is the fate of any other business which cannot compete. Farmers can at least sell up if they cannot make a living.

Its not all that easy to go bankrupt, this only occurs when someone has no assets, and if one is 56 years old, like the average farmer, an uncertain future beckons. Only the young and the reckless can afford to go bankrupt. Anyway it does not happen that one day all is well and the next day all is finished. in business the future is uncertain, and most people hang on in the hope that things will improve.

 

[Pale Rider]

Farming, is in some ways unique in that there is value in the farm itself, in some ways that is what allows people to carry on, but, when the overdraft or loans can no longer be serviced then bankruptcy is the inevitable result. The young and reckless remark is not really relevant. Bankruptcy is not a lifestyle choice. It's what happens when your business is no longer viable. You sell up, or someone does it for you.
Farmers are to some extent shielded by the subsidy payments they get, but they need to be viable at least.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Dont forget the last foot and mouth outbreak was in pigs where someone was cutting corners.

 

[Honey08]

What exactly does the red tractor symbol mean? I don't generally pay any attention to it when shopping, I always understood it to be to do with farmers getting a fair deal, and nothing to do with them treating their animals well, but I am probably wrong! I only buy the freedom food ranges if I shop at a supermarket anyway.

 

[Alec Swan]

What exactly does the red tractor symbol mean? ...............

Basically it means that the producers have abided by all the rules (except where they've been unable to, and then they can apply for a never-yet-refused-dispensation ), they've only ever used sanitised Kleenex tissues to wipe the bottoms of all livestock, that every single living creature has been given a good night kiss, and that tears were shed when it went of to the slaughter house.

In short, it's a load of meaningless old bollox. It's an attempt, inspired by the Supermarkets, I suspect, to instil confidence in an ever more cynical, and now better educated buying British public.

Alec.