Refused entry to RIHS qualifying class due to an interest

steph91

steph91

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I'm brand new to the forum but needed somewhere to voice my disgusts from a local show yesterday, and wanted to know other people's opinions.
I was entered for a RIHS qualifying class at a local show, turned out on arrival that there were only 2 people in my class which took my nerves away, thinking it would be an easy qualification. However after warming up for the class and waiting to go in the ring i heard the judge shouting at the show secretary refusing to judge my horse in the class as he previously owned her. Although to my knowledge my horse was his wife's horse and he only hunted her, and even this was 3 years ago!
The show secretary then arranged for another judge to step in and judge the conformation side, the riding judge stayed the same, yet the judge with the interest refused to step down from judging the class and said in a loud voice if he was not allowed to judge the class he would walk away from the show. I'm in my first season of showing and took the events very personal, as the judge is an acquaintance of my father, he really made it seem he did not want me or my horse to be in the class and qualify.
I understand that a judge needs to declare in an interest, however there were 2 judges judging the class, and the other competitor voiced they did not mind. I was just extremely disappointed and cried a lot, as i really wanted to qualify, this being my ideal opportunity at a small show.
Just wanted to hear people's opinion on whether it was unjustified or should i just take that as showing?
 
If there were only two of you, It wouldnt have been a "true" qualification if you came second. I would take it down as a bad experience, move on, and attend another show where you have a chance of competing and qualifying.

Good luck!!
 
I'm sorry but well done the judge - if only more judges were this honest! If you read the rules, it often states that it is up to the competitor, not the judge to decalre an interest - it is unfair to enter a class where you know the judge has an interest in your horse, it puts them in a really bad position. No matter how good/fair the judge, if your horse is the best, and he places it first, it will always be said it was because he knew/owned etc the horse. I entered a class last year, and when I found out that the judge had a vague (and actually allowable) interest in the horse (he bred, and continues to show the stallion the horse was by) I withdrew my horse, as I felt it was unfair of me to put him in a position that could cause people to question his integrity.

I'm sorry for your experience, but please, in future, do not put judges in this position.
 
I'm sorry for your experience, but please, in future, do not put judges in this position.
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You're assuming that the OP knew who the judge was prior to arriving at the show......
 
The rules are black and white. He was not allowed to judge you because his family had been involved with your horse. If you had known he was judging you put him in a very serious position which could have ruined his career. I do admit he could have been more tactful about it but rules are rules, it doesn't matter that the other competitor minded or not, nothing to do with them.
I do have to say, if I had qualified when there was such a low entry I would n't have been pleased; it doesn't look at all worthwhile on the cv; I wouldn't have thought I had achieved anything at all.

If, as Amy says you did not know that judge was judging, fair enough but you should have withdrawn yourself, not put up a fuss at all when it was pointed out to you. You will be remembered, whether you like it or not as one who thought the rules could be bent for them because they were upset; not exactly what you want to be remembered for if you want to make a success of yourself.
 
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sorry i should have said i didn't know the judge was judging as he was not named on the schedule. I know it is normally the competitor who needs to step down and normally i would have done happily but as it was my local qualifier, and another judge was available to judge, it just seemed very over the top. But thank you for you're inputs
 
A lot of the qualifiers I do have the judge's names in the schedule so you do know who will be judging unless there has been a last minute change. Also agree that the rules do usually state about not entering a horse which the judge has an interest in. Not a good day for OP but put it down to experience and move on.
 
on the schedule it said tbc, i even double checked the schedule after getting home just make sure i hadn't read it wrong. But i will very careful in future never to enter a class where there is a possibility of a repeat
 
The judge was correct, and really you should have pulled out the minute you realised who the judge was. The judge should have stayed judging the class and not been changed, again he was correct, though could have been a bit more tactful, but you should have immediately accepted the decision.

Most RIHS classes state who the judge will be in advance of the show, infact I can't think of one that I have not entered where it was not confirmed several weeks in advance.

Sometimes you do get there and the judge is changed due to ill health etc, and to find you can't compete is annoying, but a fact of life in the showing world.

Hopefully you will find another Q you can enter and get your ticket.
 
You will need to toughen up if you want to continue showing. I think the judge did the right thing. He had a previous personal interest in the horse and the judge was also an acquaintance of your father. It is not acceptable for him to judge you.
 
I personally think when there are such low numbers in a class ie 2/3 they should not automatically be able to qualify. Should be a min of at least 6 in a class.

Too many people gain a qualifier this way, a quick route through the back door.
 
Thanks everyone for your opinions and helpful advice and hopefully i'll have another chance to qualify
 
What's the score then when the co-owner of a winning horse actually works for the judge but not in a horse capacity..as happened at Devon County last week?
 
Maesfen said:
The rules are black and white. He was not allowed to judge you because his family had been involved with your horse. If you had known he was judging you put him in a very serious position which could have ruined his career. I do admit he could have been more tactful about it but rules are rules, it doesn't matter that the other competitor minded or not, nothing to do with them.
I do have to say, if I had qualified when there was such a low entry I would n't have been pleased; it doesn't look at all worthwhile on the cv; I wouldn't have thought I had achieved anything at all.

If, as Amy says you did not know that judge was judging, fair enough but you should have withdrawn yourself, not put up a fuss at all when it was pointed out to you. You will be remembered, whether you like it or not as one who thought the rules could be bent for them because they were upset; not exactly what you want to be remembered for if you want to make a success of yourself.
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Ditto all of this :)
 
PuddingandPie said:
What's the score then when the co-owner of a winning horse actually works for the judge but not in a horse capacity..as happened at Devon County last week?
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Definately frowned upon.

However, the judge is deemed to have no knowledge of the horses in the class....so the co-owner is more in the wrong here if she knew who the judge was for the class her horse was in. I'm presuming it wasn't the co-owner employee exhibiting it...so it could be an honest win if the judge had no clue of the actual co-owner of this horse or who it was. Presuming honestly obviously.
Highly highly risky but could be honest here. It would still be the co-owner at fault here I'd think though for entering as they would know the judge judging from the schedule.
 
Maesfen said:
The rules are black and white. He was not allowed to judge you because his family had been involved with your horse. If you had known he was judging you put him in a very serious position which could have ruined his career. I do admit he could have been more tactful about it but rules are rules, it doesn't matter that the other competitor minded or not, nothing to do with them.
I do have to say, if I had qualified when there was such a low entry I would n't have been pleased; it doesn't look at all worthwhile on the cv; I wouldn't have thought I had achieved anything at all.

If, as Amy says you did not know that judge was judging, fair enough but you should have withdrawn yourself, not put up a fuss at all when it was pointed out to you. You will be remembered, whether you like it or not as one who thought the rules could be bent for them because they were upset; not exactly what you want to be remembered for if you want to make a success of yourself.
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absolutly agree. There woud be no saying you would have qualified anyway. i have heard recently of a RIHS qualifier where there was only one horse in the class and the judge gave it 3rd. He said it wasnt quality enough to attend RIHS so gave it 3rd so it wouldnt qualify.
 
All I can say is what a complete farce and thank god I did not get into showing! As far as I have seen within the showing world it's all about who you know anyway and it always seems to be those who are 'in' with the judges are the ones who are placed higher up anyway. Stick to showjumping I say - it's black and white!!! Lol
 
ladyt25 said:
All I can say is what a complete farce and thank god I did not get into showing! As far as I have seen within the showing world it's all about who you know anyway and it always seems to be those who are 'in' with the judges are the ones who are placed higher up anyway. Stick to showjumping I say - it's black and white!!! Lol
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The horse was owned previously by the judge. Him choosing to not judge it just proves that statement wrong....

It's rules, check the sport horse or whichever association it was with....it's not ludicrous or anything unbetold going on there. Just procedure.
 
Maesfen just like to make the point i didn't make a fuss at all, i was told i couldn't go in the class questioned why, then went back to my lorry and untacked my horse and took her home
 
Rules are rules i guess but I do think he could have dealt with it better.

Not a showing person so wouldn't know but why does the person attending have to stand down rather then the judgee? does that mean if the same judg does all the classes every month say then the person can't enter them, sounds a bit unfair if so.
 
RSL said:
Rules are rules i guess but I do think he could have dealt with it better.

Not a showing person so wouldn't know but why does the person attending have to stand down rather then the judgee? does that mean if the same judg does all the classes every month say then the person can't enter them, sounds a bit unfair if so.
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Because the judge is invited there to judge and generally doesn't judge every show and class held there, espeically for qualifiers [I think it's only one show allowed to judge per qualifier or something along them lines?]. It's bad coincidence if you happen to be local to that show and have a horse previously owned or known personally by the judge. It's not fair for him to have to judge it due to possible biasedness. It's your duty as the competitor to find out who the judge is before you enter your class.

It can happen to anyone at any show, if the judge was different, it could have been one of the other competitors that could have known him. It's not victimised or put there to be unfair....it's there to be fair for all.
 
I think that is terrible, if there was no other judge then fair enough but as there were two I think it would of been better for him to let the other judge,judge.

I would have been upset too and I'd put in a formal complaint
 
That's showing for you!

I was in the judge's box scoring as my friends and a family member competed in a jumping competition. I couldn't influence the time they took nor the fences they knocked down. And there were no issues when they won fair and square.

I think it's laughable that 'interest' doesn't extend to 'known names and faces' and very well done to you for taking the farce that showing often is, firmly on the chin.
 
I think its perfectly fair, and very correct of the judge to have acted in the way he did. The onus is on the competitor to step down in such circumstances. Its unfortunate, but if the show was local to you, this thing is even more likely to happen. Showing is so subjective, and its full of bias enough as it is, to have people judged by their horse's former riders and father's friends!
 
As another query, this judge is also a local breeder/dealer and is only 1 of 4 BSPA judges in my area, should there not be some kind of rule to stop this happening to other people? Just stopping a breeder judge judging in the local area as i can imagine i'm not the only one to have this experience
 
Well this is direct contrast to the 'biased judging at local shows' thread isn't it? It does seem that there is no pleasing some people. I cannot imagine how those who feel that the JUDGE should stand down, think that the class could go ahead. Show secretaries have enough trouble finding ONE judge for every class without having to have somebody on standby as well! In classes where there are 2 judges, this is because they are each doing a different job! As your horse is inexperienced, you could perhaps have asked if you could take him into the class, hors concours, for the experience.
Associations are most likely to have registered breeders judging as they are the people with the most knowledge about the breed. And the people with the most interest in judging other people's horses for free! I'm afraid it is, as others have pointed out, the exhibitors responsibility to find out who the judge is and withdraw if necessary. To eliminate unnecessary travelling of your horse perhaps a telephone call to the secretary on the day before the show would be a good idea, if the judge's name has not previously been published.
 
BSPA Rule 19
19. Exhibitors - are required to withdraw from a class if the judge has an interest in his/her
exhibit. For the purpose of this rule a conflict of interest is defined as.
A judge has an interest in an exhibit if he/she has owned, trained, kept it at livery or
ridden it in any competition. Or has had or still has a financial interest or gain from it,
or has bred it, or who’s stallion whilst in their ownership/control, has sired it.


The judge obviously felt that as he wife had owned the horse and he had hunted it, then he was not in a position to judge it without breakint the rules.
 
steph91 said:
As another query, this judge is also a local breeder/dealer and is only 1 of 4 BSPA judges in my area, should there not be some kind of rule to stop this happening to other people? Just stopping a breeder judge judging in the local area as i can imagine i'm not the only one to have this experience
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No I dont think there should be a rule like that otherwise local shows would suffer with the increased in costs to bring in outside judges.

Very correct of the judge to refuse to judge your horse as there was very deffinatly a connection. Judges have to be confirmed in advance for RIHS qualifiers and only in exceptional circumstances can the judges be changed (illness or injury) and not just because one competitor has an intrest. For all oyu know one of the other competitors may have a horse that the other judge had an intrest in or he may already have a qualifier that he is judgeing later in the year and thus be unale to judge yours without letting the shows he has committed to down.
 
steph91 said:
Maesfen just like to make the point i didn't make a fuss at all, i was told i couldn't go in the class questioned why, then went back to my lorry and untacked my horse and took her home
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I'm sorry if I got it wrong but you saying in your opening post that you took it personally, (which it wouldn't have been, the judge was just keeping to his rules) were disappointed and cried a lot added up to making a fuss in my eyes. We obviously have different ideas on what constitutes a fuss, lol!

At least you know now for next time so good luck with your qualifier quest. :)
 
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