Refusing and wrecking my confidence

[book_lover]

Most of my posts to date have been about my daughter and her pony, but they're now getting on super.

As we've been putting more work in with her pony, we've naturally been putting more in with my horse too - now being ridden 5 or 6 days a week, and lots of variety - flat/jump/hack/poles/le trec style obstacles/road hack etc etc.

Sebastian (in my profile pic) is 18 years old, and I've had him nearly a year. If I'm honest up until perhaps two months ago I was not getting the full benefit from him, plodding about a bit really and doing the odd jumping but not much. But in the last two months we've been XC training, out in the box for a loch hack, etc. Am keen to get him to the beach. He's a lovely lad - quite steady until something spooks him, good fun - likes a gallop in an open field. Flatwork - will do anything you ask. Jumping a totally different matter though He's always been prone to refuse which has always put me off. I don't get enough lessons especially at the mo as the instructor who comes to us is an venter and its the season now. She has helped me in the past before and shown me that he's just taking the mick. But I've been getting more positive and trying to make him go over with no refusals and he'll now pop over smaller jumps (50cm or so) without a fuss - usually. But the other day our friend who owns the livery was putting the jumps up for us and we did 75cm without even knowing it. Refusals setting in. She then put it up to 80cm and Sebastian kept running out - then charging round the arena very strong and silly. Eventually though we did a few good goes over it and I felt really proud. But today (livery daughter away), we were doing a bit of jumping and when I put it up from 70 to 75 he suddenly was not happy. Determined to make sure he did as told, I kept trying and he got really stubborn - TONS of refusals and me nearly coming off. He was actually acting quite naughty which he never does. I was riding as positively as I could, but wow I really do not like the feeling of a refusal at the last moment. Eventually we got two goes over it (but really frog-jumpy) and I had to end. It didn't feel like I'd ended on a good note.

Just a few days ago I was adding some nice bits and pieces to my basket online to get him out to his first show (but I'd be in with the children in the 50cm!!). Now I'm not sure any more. I know we all have bad days. But the things I have to go through just to get him over a 70cm straight... I would have no issues jumping higher if I thought my horse would not refuse every time. As it is I'm feared to approach anything in a fast canter in case I come off. I rarely come off but it has happened.

I ended today a quivering wreck. I can't help wondering how different it would be with a horse that didn't refuse so much. Livery owner assures me he's not too old at 18... but is he too old to break this habit? His career when younger was in XC apparently. At age 39 I don't have the nerves of steel I once had. My confidence goes up and down each day. I would work on my OWN confidence as the issue but it's not just me (sometimes I'm sure it is my nerves that he picks up on) - but it's him too. Even when I am steering like hell, leg on, tap with the whip and firm snarly voice, he can still manage to run out or just stop at the last moment.

Any ideas? He actually belongs to my boss and was a field ornament for a while before coming to me - I've carefully brought him back into work but wondering if I'm just expecting too much of him.

 

[muckypony]

First of all make sure nothing is hurting i.e. saddle, back, teeth etc. If all is ok, I would advise not jumping alone at all for a while. Even with someone on the ground just being a pole person it can make you feel more confident.

Ideally, you want to be jumping only with an instructor so that they can help you all the time. You may think you are sitting up and riding positive, but someone on the ground might be able to tell you that actually you're dropping the contact at the last minute or whatever.

If he runs out, do not let him carry on past the fence. If it is 50cm then I'm afraid I would be making him walk over it! (My little Welshie does a cracking cat leap over 80's when he thinks of stopping and realises he can't!) Don't turn him away unless you really think he can't walk over it.

It's hard to advise without watching I think, but I would definitely make sure there is someone on the ground. Don't push yourself until you feel uncomfortable, because he will pick up on that. If you are competing against children then so be it!!

 

[be positive]

First the need to ask is he totally sound, has his saddle been checked recently as he may well have changed shape, teeth and back checks done?

If all is well then you need to go back to within his comfort zone and stay there until he is consistently jumping, confidently going over jumps in every direction, in new places, in doubles, in grids and with different poles, fillers, uprights and oxers, only then start to increase the height, very gradually, putting a jump up and having him stop numerous times is only compounding the issue and getting you nowhere other than to set him up to fail and you to lose more confidence, if he stops more than once put the jump down so he can go over it don't keep attempting something that you are having to over ride and still end up stopping at.
He may have a limit and beyond that he just finds it hard, his feet may hurt when he lands so the bigger jumps are more challenging, there may be many reasons but if you stay at a realistic height for a while it may be possible to build up over time, how long it takes is a bit of a how long is a piece of string scenario but if you just stay around the 60-65 cm for a few months you can still have fun and may be more confident to go out to the odd show and enjoy yourself rather than trying to jump fences that are worrying you.

 

[book_lover]

thank you so much both. I feel more confident just reading your comments! And I definitely feel fine at 60-65cm, and can be more positive riding up to those. Even spreads. He might still refuse sometimes though. I wonder.... he has calcified side bones which mean he has to have front two feet shod, and can't be ridden hard on hard ground. His owner told me - anything is fine in that school as it's rubber and soft. BUT - perhaps landing from a 75cm or 80cm would hurt his front feet then? How can I find out?

Otherwise we are waiting for the saddle fitter to come out (she's super busy but getting to us as soon as she can) for both horses, and she is fantastic at checking back too and we have an excellent physio we can get out. Saddle SEEMS good though -but now wondering if it's his feet.

I get a lot of "encouragement" from the livery's daughter - 16 y old (but sensible for her age) but her 14.2 pony can jump 1.10 and my 10 year old daughter has jumped 90 on her pony, so they both think I should manage higher on my 15.2! So a lot of "encouragement" to go higher taking me out of my comfort zone. I was so happy last week when I did a mini course of 55-60. I felt like we might be getting closer to going out. So I will take both your advice and stick in the comfort zone for now.

Any ideas how I can find out if it is hurting his feet?

 

[book_lover]

oh yes - teeth done recently.

 

[muckypony]

If you are still only comfortable at that height then stay there. Getting his legs looked into is a good idea, even on a surface I imagine it would put strain on them. Perhaps a vet job? Im not really sure!

 

[book_lover]

thank you. There is an equestrian specialist vet we can get out for a hefty fee. The livery family usually get our local vet, who my husband and I are quite friendly with - but I'm not convinced he knows a great deal about horses. Mainly because he admitted as much!! Maybe will get the specialists out.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Any ideas how I can find out if it is hurting his feet?

TBH, I think he is making it perfectly clear but you could of course ask the vet. It maybe that you could do a bute trial. Although if you find that he jumps better on bute, I would not advise you to do so long-term, in case his problems are exacerbated. Where were you thinking of taking him 'out and about'? Unless there is a forgiving surface there, he is probably better staying at home.

 

[book_lover]

He is perhaps making it clear over bigger jumps. But don't other horses get more refusy over larger jumps, isn't this typical? After it gets past a certain height it's more like hard work? Others including my instructor have said he is taking advantage of me, and picks up on my nerves. So I don't want to suddenly assume he is not fit for jumping.

I really don't think he has any issues over the 60cm odd fences, just seems to become a real issue for him at 75-80, and I was only thinking of taking him to a very laid back show and doing the 50cm course with the kids, as mentioned in the original post. Don't worry I'm not taking him off to Badminton or anything

 

[book_lover]

But yes you do have to ask if he needs bute or something else to ease pain when jumping, is he better not jumping? I was only meaning that I think it's better to investigate with a vet rather than just assume he's past it based on one particularly bad day.

 

[book_lover]

Also, and just thinking aloud - I've often (probably quite arrogantly) thought he's happier being with me because a) he wasn't getting much work before or human contact, and was being bullied by the alpha males in the field and b) he now gets lots of fuss and bonding with me, a variety of work which keeps him stimulated.... but perhaps he'd rather be retired, I dunno! He's such a lovely, gentle boy though, I adore him. That's him in my profile pic.

 

[Steorra]

It's lovely that you're enjoying him more, and well done for all your good work with your daughter's pony.

Have you gone straight from the odd plod to riding 5-6 days a week, cantering and jumping, quite suddenly? Because if you ask an unfit horse to suddenly work harder they might well end up feeling achey, grumpy and sore! Perhaps some steady, fittening work would be a good idea.

18 isn't elderly, but an 18 year old horse is in his middle-age, as it were. Fitness comes more slowly, warming up takes longer, there might be a bit of stiffness in the joints. Not to say he can't jump or gallop on the beach but you do need to build up slowly and listen when he says he's reached his current limits.

Maybe spend some weeks building fitness, and at the same time explore what you can do with a 50cm jump. Can you add interesting fillers (don't have to be fancy - try some leafy branches or a bag of feed). Stick a bit of tape at the centre of the jump and pop precisely over it, then try moving it a foot to the left, then a foot to the right. Start playing with doubles, adjusting the striding slighty long and slightly short, dog-legs, a little course. Remember that jumping twice a week is plenty and that 10 good jumping efforts in a session are better than 10 good efforts followed by 10 poor ones.

And, as above, check your saddle. Ask someone knowledgeable and independent to watch him trotting up and ridden. Why was he out of work in the first place?

Good luck!

 

[Steorra]

Having seen your new post since I typed my long (sorry for the essay!) reply...I wouldn't be jumping a horse with side-bone at a height he wasn't happy (or at all, unless he was absolutely 100% delighted at the prospect, to be honest). Sorry to be blunt.

 

[ponydi]

When we got our lovely Connie pony (at age 16) she would happily pop round a 2'9 course, but as she got older her ceiling got lower! It wasn't naughtiness or rider incompetence, just age, wear and tear

 

[book_lover]

It's lovely that you're enjoying him more, and well done for all your good work with your daughter's pony.

Have you gone straight from the odd plod to riding 5-6 days a week, cantering and jumping, quite suddenly? Because if you ask an unfit horse to suddenly work harder they might well end up feeling achey, grumpy and sore! Perhaps some steady, fittening work would be a good idea.

18 isn't elderly, but an 18 year old horse is in his middle-age, as it were. Fitness comes more slowly, warming up takes longer, there might be a bit of stiffness in the joints. Not to say he can't jump or gallop on the beach but you do need to build up slowly and listen when he says he's reached his current limits.

Maybe spend some weeks building fitness, and at the same time explore what you can do with a 50cm jump. Can you add interesting fillers (don't have to be fancy - try some leafy branches or a bag of feed). Stick a bit of tape at the centre of the jump and pop precisely over it, then try moving it a foot to the left, then a foot to the right. Start playing with doubles, adjusting the striding slighty long and slightly short, dog-legs, a little course. Remember that jumping twice a week is plenty and that 10 good jumping efforts in a session are better than 10 good efforts followed by 10 poor ones.

And, as above, check your saddle. Ask someone knowledgeable and independent to watch him trotting up and ridden. Why was he out of work in the first place?

Good luck!

Steeora this makes a LOT of sense to me - thank you. He was being ridden maybe 3 or 4 times a week. But I was aware that, whilst others were doing (say in a flatwork session) lots of circles in trot, circles in canter etc. I was just doing a more lazy version - some walking, trotting, mostly large round the school, a couple of canters on each rein etc. He does lean in quite a bit when cantering a smaller circle. I think there's a lot of work I could do with him on the flat if only I could get a bit of instruction with it - very frustrating that our instructor comes so infrequently but noone else really near enough.

So I will spend more time working on his fitness and investigate online best ways to do that. Yes he may well be stiff. I stretched out his legs tonight and he was not too steady with one back leg up.

He was out of work for my boss because she got him after being thrown by a flighty horse and hurting her back - to ride whilst she recovered (so as not to risk falling with a bad back). She used him for dressage, she doesn't jump much. I think some teenagers came and occasionally bombed him over high jumps in a field which was probably quite bad for him when out of work. Perhaps jumping reminds him of that?

 

[book_lover]

When we got our lovely Connie pony (at age 16) she would happily pop round a 2'9 course, but as she got older her ceiling got lower! It wasn't naughtiness or rider incompetence, just age, wear and tear

ok thanks ponydi - good to get that perspective

 

[book_lover]

Having seen your new post since I typed my long (sorry for the essay!) reply...I wouldn't be jumping a horse with side-bone at a height he wasn't happy (or at all, unless he was absolutely 100% delighted at the prospect, to be honest). Sorry to be blunt.

His owner told me it was fine for him to do jumping, she's done a lot of investigation into side bones... I certainly wouldn't have done it otherwise (or taken him on - jumping is what I love!). He seems to enjoy jumping smaller courses (60cm or so) - once he gets his confidence up. Loving your idea of fillers with branches so will try those. I do really believe he enjoys jumping but something seems to change when it gets to 75 or so.

 

[book_lover]

But like I said earlier too - I will now be looking at checking with a vet 100% he is safe to jump without it causing him pain. And be more sensitive to his limits.

 

[Steorra]

I'm glad to be of help. Like I said though, I think that an older horse plus boney changes plus refusals suggests discomfort. If he is happy at 50-60cm but persistently saying no more then that's all I'd be jumping, for sure.

 

[book_lover]

I'm glad to be of help. Like I said though, I think that an older horse plus boney changes plus refusals suggests discomfort. If he is happy at 50-60cm but persistently saying no more then that's all I'd be jumping, for sure.

ok thank you. Yes persistently saying no I'd say above 70. So sticking to 50-60 makes sense. Will break the news to my enthusiastic chum from the stables who cheers me on to go higher. I think I need to seek some proper advice regarding what I can do when out though. And in time, do I need to consider a different horse? and he goes home to be bullied by the alpha males again, as I can't afford to retire him at livery...

 

[book_lover]

I knew it was worth asking on here. It all does make sense now. I only hear from people at the yard that he is being cheeky. But then, they all tend to have younger horses so perhaps haven't been through this yet.

 

[Steorra]

ok thank you. Yes persistently saying no I'd say above 70. So sticking to 50-60 makes sense. Will break the news to my enthusiastic chum from the stables who cheers me on to go higher. I think I need to seek some proper advice regarding what I can do when out though. And in time, do I need to consider a different horse? and he goes home to be bullied by the alpha males again, as I can't afford to retire him at livery...

It's hard 😔. I think you're right, you need the advice of a vet and a good instructor who can assess the horse in person (not the girl at the yard, though she sounds like a fun riding buddy ).

 

[book_lover]

It's hard ��. I think you're right, you need the advice of a vet and a good instructor who can assess the horse in person (not the girl at the yard, though she sounds like a fun riding buddy ).

thanks, good advice, I will definitely do this. Yes - she is fantastic, has been a huge part of my daughter's education and a fantastic confidence giver for us both. But I will tell her that I have concerns and won't be going above 60cm until I have sought medical/professional advice on Seb's feet. thanks again. Better go to bed, early start tomorrow! I almost felt that Seb was sad that we had had this battle, as he does try to please in other things. Lovely boy. thanks again and goodnight!

 

[FfionWinnie]

He is perhaps making it clear over bigger jumps. But don't other horses get more refusy over larger jumps, isn't this typical? After it gets past a certain height it's more like hard work? Others including my instructor have said he is taking advantage of me, and picks up on my nerves. So I don't want to suddenly assume he is not fit for jumping.

I really don't think he has any issues over the 60cm odd fences, just seems to become a real issue for him at 75-80, and I was only thinking of taking him to a very laid back show and doing the 50cm course with the kids, as mentioned in the original post. Don't worry I'm not taking him off to Badminton or anything

No, they don't get more likely to refuse as the jumps get higher. Not at that height. It sounds like pain to me I'm afraid. At 18 and with existing foot issues...

Why don't you jump your daughter's horse instead. Lessons cannot be beaten and you need a good instructor who is available all year round IMO.

I would not increase the height either are jumping until they are consistent at that height. And at 55cm if it refused I would make it go through it/from a stand still (not really at a show this is a training issue). Not sure what height the D is but at ten unless your daughter is a very tall strong rider, it would be better to have someone more experienced school it over jumps alongside her riding it.

 

[Gloi]

I was just going to say what the last poster did. Listen to your horse, he is probably finding it uncomfortable to jump higher and it seems unfair to ask him to especially as he is happy doing other things.
Lesson and jumping on your daughter's pony sounds like a good idea. You can get your jumping practice in and it will be training the pony for when your daughter wants to jump her.

 

[Tobiano]

Book lover you have had some good advice here. My first thought was pain, he is doing just what my 8 year old did before we discovered he had arthritis and we then stole jumping him. Sounds like Sebastian is ok at the lower heights though so you may not need to stop altogether. I like the idea of you jumping your daughters pony though, if she will let you! (Mine wouldn't!) good luck with them both x

Stopped not stole blimmin autocorrect !!

 

[book_lover]

haha Tobiano

Thanks for the ideas everyone - I won't get to jump Becky really I'm afraid - the two of them are a bit of a dream team in the school and Laura can jump her over 90 (their current record) but they tend to stick to 70 odd and if a course, lower. They are superb together. FfionWinnie yeah she's quite a stocky strong rider - they have had their issues (mostly when Bex has been out of work) but they have got through those and are now a bit of a dream team! There's another thread updating on their progress editing to add - she is 14.1hh.

thanks so much for the advice people. I will certainly get the best vets in the area (equine specialists) who can do x rays etc to see what is going on with feet, legs etc alongside a brilliant instructor, so I can figure out just what I should and should not be doing with him I think in time given his age he will need to slow down anyway and perhaps then I can look at a younger jumping horse. For now we're happy together though.

 

[misskk88]

I think your horse is telling you perfectly that he is not happy at a certain height. I think at 18, and with some existing medical conditions you really need to listen to your horse, that perhaps, given those things that whatever height is enough.

I speak from experience as I bought a green 8 year old who was meant to become my all rounder horse of a lifetime. Perfect horse in everyway, except jumping. Whilst he had no health problems and could easily pop a fence with ease, he just had no confidence, didn't enjoy it, and I didn't enjoy riding him through it. We could come out one day, jump a small course perfectly and the next I would have a stop at every fence. Or even in a lesson, pop a jump, come to do it again and he would put in a dirty stop. I was confident riding him, but I didn't see the point of the battle every single time we went to jump and the risk of ruining our partnership, so after several falls, and MANY refusals, I called it a day. He is perfectly happy being a dressage diva- so all is good!

Yes you could make him (and I could have continued to make my horse too). Yes, you could battle with him, and no 18 isn't 'old', but why not just enjoy your horse for what he can offer you, what you are both comfortable with and can be successful at? I don't see the point in wrecking both yours and his confidence for the sake of a few centimetres!!! When it comes to getting out and about, you will also be surprised how many adults on bigger horses are also in the smaller classes- everyone starts somewhere, everyone has their reasons i.e learner, riding a youngster, confidence, oldie just getting out having fun etc.

Most certainly, in the meantime, I would also be getting the vet out to check there are no underlying issues of pain (and it could well be given his age/current medical issues). At least then you can rest assured that either yes, the refusals are pain related (personally although I know people do, I wouldn't bute my horse up just to jump, but I would manage pain accordingly to ensure quality of life), or no it isn't and if you do really want to push on, you can with your mind and conscience clear. I would say though that at 18, he is telling you his limits.

I see you plan to get the vet out anyway- so do let us know how it all goes

 

[book_lover]

thank you Misskk88 - great advice and agree with every word. Glad you are both enjoying the dressage - I thought I could take that up actually as I believe he's had a history of dressage too will let you all know how it goes with the vet.

 

[fatpiggy]

My mare won her working hunter class over reasonably decent height jumps at the local RC show and two weeks later refused at a couple in the same ring, decent ground conditions etc and actually lower jumps. I retired from the class and her face told me she didn't want to do it. Not long after, despite not being lame, she was diagnosed with advanced arthritis. I think she was about 20 then.