Registering Foal with Studbook

Tempi

Tempi

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Id really like a simple yes or no answer to my question, as im new to all this breeding business and most of the technical stuff goes straight over my head!! So here it is:

Bloss is of unknown breeding and obviously not registered to a stud book (i do know her damn and sire, but its not on her passport) anyways, mini-Bloss's sire is with the KWPN. So can i register mini-Bloss with the KWPN even tho i dont have Bloss's breeding?

I know i can register mini with the AES, but id really like to register her with the KWPN if poss. Ive looked at their website but i dont understand it, thats why im after a simple answer!!
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Thank you in advance
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Anastasia knows alot about the KWPN so ask her.

My advise tho, is to register with the AES, its simple and easy and very affordable especially if the foal isn't going to have a full pedigree. If you know Bloss' parents and they have breeding papers why don't you get her DNAed to them and then you will have her pedigree, you can do that through the AES thats what I did for one of my mares, its inexpensive if you consider that her foals then have known parentage both sides.
 
Bloss's damn is registered with Wetherbys, but her sire i know nothing about - Etoile De Paris, hes a Norman Cob
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How would i go about the DNAing thing? (sorry, i am ignorant when it comes to all this!)
 
My experience with the KWPN was that I had all the papers incl the fathers and mothers and I then had to have the foals DNA taken.
The Dna was taken from a sample of her hair that was taken and verified by the vet, however as both the parents were KWPN this may have been simpler in my case.

I am not certain but I dont think the KWPN take cross-breds into their studbook.
 
But the sire is KWPN and my mare is unknown breeding (according to passport) so can i still have the foal registered to SHBGB? (its all so confusing
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) And you say i would need to have DNA samples taken - to prove the filly belongs to my mare do you mean? or to trace my mares breeding?
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Sorry I think I am confusing you. I presume the foal would only be eligible for the Basic Identity Register, I was thinking (wrongly!!) of the Auxiliary studbook where only one parent is registered (but niether of yours are, duh!).

So looks like the AES it is, sorry dont know anything about them at all!! I will go away now...............................
 
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Anastasia knows alot about the KWPN so ask her.

My advise tho, is to register with the AES, its simple and easy and very affordable especially if the foal isn't going to have a full pedigree. If you know Bloss' parents and they have breeding papers why don't you get her DNAed to them and then you will have her pedigree, you can do that through the AES thats what I did for one of my mares, its inexpensive if you consider that her foals then have known parentage both sides.

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Completely agree with HorseGroupie there, much the best way to go, especially as it will ensure that you will get a UELN that informs everyone that the foal is British-bred and also has all its details already logged into the National Equine Database, so no expensive overstamping by a second UK-based studbook will be required if you want to take part in the Futurity etc as would be the case if you chose KWPN papers -- which I think would only be Reg B at the best and not full ones anyway as the dam's breeding is unknown.

BTW, if the mare has a Wetherbys reg/passport are you sure that it is an ID only one? Have you tried contacting them to see if they have any breeding details for her that are not on the passport? Just a thought.
 
My mare dosent have a registered wetherbys passport, but her damn is registered with Wetherbys, as i checked a few years ago now.

Do you mean contact Wetherbys to ask about my mares breeding - will they have foals recorded then that are bred by mares registered with Wetherbys?

Just to add i dont have any breeding papers to do with Bloss's damn or sire, i was told when i bought her who they were - but i dont even know if its correct or not......
 
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Do you mean contact Wetherbys to ask about my mares breeding - will they have foals recorded then that are bred by mares registered with Wetherbys?

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It's worth checking as mares are often regsitered with Wetherbys precisely becuase their owners want the foals to be.

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Just to add i dont have any breeding papers to do with Bloss's damn or sire, i was told when i bought her who they were - but i dont even know if its correct or not......

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Still worth checking just for your own interest but I doubt whether it could be included as verified breeding on your Johnson foal's papers unless you know exactly how old Bloss is and could get her DNA tested against her dam and the stallion she was supposd to have been covered with the year that Bloss was conceived. She does sound very much like an unregistered TB to me so perhaps you could get a late registration for her if the DNA result was correct but I gather that there is quite a high charge for late (in this case very late!) registrations with Wetherbys.
 
I know Bloss's exact date of birth. Bloss is TB x Norman Cob.

Its all very confusing!!

I think im going to think about this another time when i havent got a million other things to do aswell!!!!

Thank you for your help everyone
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Simple answer is YES you can register the foal with the KWPN!

As your mare is effectively 'unknown' breeding, the foal will receive Register B papers from the KWPN which is the lowest rung.

If you want to register it KWPN, I would advise you contact Jeanette Nijhof (or wherever you got Johnson's semen from) that you intend to register the foal with the KWPN. They will then inform the KWPN of your mare's covering and details.

Foal registration is a sort of 2 stage process with the KWPN. If they are informed of the covering, you will receive an invoice for 'registering the covering' (which you should pay but if all doesn't go well with the foaling you will get a refund). Early spring they will then send you all the necessary paperwork for you to fill in once the foal is born. (Ideally it needs to be returned within 5 days of the birth). They will need to DNA test both mare and foal to check the foal's parentage but don't worry, you will get all the instructions in advance.

Its quite a straightforward process, once you know what is required.
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Completely agree with HorseGroupie there, much the best way to go, especially as it will ensure that you will get a UELN that informs everyone that the foal is British-bred.

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Sorry to hijack the thread but I'm just curious Ciss, as we know the AES is a British based studbook with quite extensive operations abroad (especially in Holland). How do they deal with the UELN's? Surely in your view, (which seems to be that the UELN's identify the country of birth) there must be a bunch of foreign bred horses masquarading as British?
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Sorry to hijack the thread but I'm just curious Ciss, as we know the AES is a British based studbook with quite extensive operations abroad (especially in Holland). How do they deal with the UELN's? Surely in your view, (which seems to be that the UELN's identify the country of birth) there must be a bunch of foreign bred horses masquarading as British?
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Oh Wisnette you didn't think you would catch me out by being THAT inconsistent did you? <ROFL>.

Personally I very strongly disapprove of the AES grading operations abroad as it does nothing to promote the integrity of British breeding and British-based studbooks and just causes problems with relationships on an offical level between serious breeders here and those in the countries in which he operates. In fact, I am very surprised that you would think I would condone ANY stallion grading system that encourages failed or incompletely graded stallions to come forward for approval if they have been failed by their original stud book (but then your interpretations of what I might or might not say or believe do always amaze me :-). I also believe that any foals born abroad sired by such stallions should be issued with papers from an appropriate stud book in the country of birth and therefore have a UELN from that country (woudl you believe I would think anything else?). Presumably there is nothing to stop the AES setting up such organisations in other European countries (very much as the Trakehners have done in most EU countries now) but I am actually unsure of how many foreign-bred foals have actuallu been issued with AES papers to date so I am not sure of the size of the problem.

NED is moving offices for the next few days but once they are fully back on line I will see if they can do a search to see just how many of them have been given AES passports, but I suspect the number is very limited as most stallions that grade with the AES (such as Painted Black) only seem to do it as an intermim measure before they get the competition record they need to allow them to re-present themselves in their proper studbook for full garded status.

So not a case of the biter bit I am afraid ;-)
 
Thank you for your answer, i understand a bit more now! Im going to get back in touch with Eric at Haras De Lavie as he organised everything for me before and see what he says and if he can organise this for me too! Thank you again
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Oh Wisnette you didn't think you would catch me out by being THAT inconsistent did you? <ROFL>.

Personally I very strongly disapprove of the AES grading operations abroad as it does nothing to promote the integrity of British breeding and British-based studbooks and just causes problems with relationships on an offical level between serious breeders here and those in the countries in which he operates. In fact, I am very surprised that you would think I would condone ANY stallion grading system that encourages failed or incompletely graded stallions to come forward for approval if they have been failed by their original stud book (but then your interpretations of what I might or might not say or believe do always amaze me :-). I also believe that any foals born abroad sired by such stallions should be issued with papers from an appropriate stud book in the country of birth and therefore have a UELN from that country (woudl you believe I would think anything else?). Presumably there is nothing to stop the AES setting up such organisations in other European countries (very much as the Trakehners have done in most EU countries now) but I am actually unsure of how many foreign-bred foals have actuallu been issued with AES papers to date so I am not sure of the size of the problem.

NED is moving offices for the next few days but once they are fully back on line I will see if they can do a search to see just how many of them have been given AES passports, but I suspect the number is very limited as most stallions that grade with the AES (such as Painted Black) only seem to do it as an intermim measure before they get the competition record they need to allow them to re-present themselves in their proper studbook for full garded status.

So not a case of the biter bit I am afraid ;-)

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Ciss, I wasn't trying to 'catch you out', I was genuinely interested in your opinion. I can never predict what it is going to be.
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As I think I might have said before, I'm a firm believer that freedom of choice and an open market is a good thing. Competition encourages improvement, innovation and allows the most successful to prosper. Conversely, protectionism and restricted choice only leads to stagnation for the whole industry.

If foreign breeders want to use British studbooks surely that's got to be good for our studbooks and equally, if British breeders want to use foreign studbooks – why discourage them? Foreign studbooks can offer British breeders a great opportunity to be part of a large, well funded, successful organisation and they can improve our breeding programs and help us catch up with other European breeders.

The rest of the world recognises that the UELNs identify the database/studbook and nothing more. Horses passports identify the place of birth – desiring UELNs to also identify the country of birth for British-bred horses just appears unnecessarily hard on an already struggling industry.

You seem to be on a crusade to restrict the operations of British studbooks and the choices of British breeders. Pity.
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Still, at least you are consistent in it. ;-)
 
It is so confusing, isn't it?! I had a huge dilemma as although my mares are reg'd NF and Ringo is (KWPN) he is reg'd with Wetherbys. Well if I wanted them with Wetherbys I would have had to reg the mares with them, get their passports overstamped (which I did not want) and get the foals DNA tested. I think it would have cost me about £800+
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Then I looked at the coloured societies but they wouldn't put Ringo's name on the passports because he wasn't reg'd with them
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How stupid!!(and they were VERY rude)

So in the end I went with the NF society and reg'd them as First Crosses and Ringo's name will be on them too! Thats all that mattered to me TBH, lol
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Cost £18 per passport and £70 for registering my prefix.

Hope you don't have as many problems as I did!
 
Out of interest, why do you want to register with the KWPN rather than the AES. Is it just because of the 'label' that will be attached to mini bloss or are there other reasons?
 
I havent decided who im going to register her with yet, and either way surely its my choice?

i was simply asking for advice in this post, my questions have been answered and thats the end of that
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Hi
Sorry
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This is the trouble by comunicating by emails and texts, people read into them and cannot get the meanings and feelings like you would by the good old fashion way of talking (which I know is impossible on a forum like this) God damm technology!!. Perhaps someone can design an email that attach's the attitude to them as they always seem to come across as agressive, who ever writes them
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I was just curious ( I work in Marketing) if there are stigma's attached to certain studbooks and as an example if the AES is seen as a poor relation to the KWPN? My veiw is that it is what is inside the book and not is what is on the cover and what studbook is going to suit my personal requirements.

Good luck with the little bloss, and no matter who you go with, I am sure it will be gorgeous (this is sent with love not sarcasim)
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