Rein snatch & Market Harborough -advice please

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Peterpan132

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I have a 13 year old cob who I've had for 8 years .... Being his 7th owner when he was a 5 year old explains a lot! But I've persuvered and we now have a great relationship ... But....

When he wants to work he goes amazingly and cant fault him. However He is always finding different ways to evade work (all medical checks done regularly, it's just his way!), for example, running out of his shoulder or running off with me, and 9 times out of 10 we find a way to work through them and he finds a new trick. I've definitely learnt a lot and become a better rider since having him.

This weeks /months trick is to snatch the reins, particularly in canter by throwing his head down to the floor. I resorted to just letting him have his head (he's too strong to hold), keeping a balanced seat and kicking him forward and controlling him with my weight so that he has to keep going forward into the canter that I've asked for. However, he has now learnt that if he doesn't want to work, even in trot, he can snatch the reins and run off with me.

I have a really good instructor (finally!! Many have given up on us!) who suggests I get a market harborough to try on our next lesson. I have read that they are good for horses who throw heads up, but how about throwing heads down to the floor?

I'm not generally a gadget person as believe in a very classic way of riding - he's ridden in a Nueue Schule 'baby' bit and simply has a bridle & saddle on, even for hacking. But do feel we need something to help us get over this new trick as he is starting to learn his strength and isnt an easy one to overcome

Any advice, comments and suggestions appreciated!

Thanks
 
I would say a Market Harborough wouldn't help the issue and would probably make it worse as it attaches to the bridle from between the front legs so bringing his head down. I would have though (and I am happy to be corrected) something like grass/daisy reins would be more appropriate?
 
It would stop him being able to fully take the reins away from you but will not solve the problem which seems to be that he has trained you well, he snatches you release, he gets what he wants, freedom, now you have decided to try and stop this but you allowed it to happen in the first place.
That may sound harsh but it is how they learn new tricks and evasions, they dont spend time thinking up new ideas to avoid work, they act or react and if the rider accepts what is done or allows the freedom the behaviour becomes a pattern until the rider decides it has gone too far. It needs stopping before it escalates not once it is established, he is probably very bright and needs plenty to keep his mind busy thinking about what he is supposed to be doing then he would have no time to act of his own accord.

Think of new ideas of your own to occupy his mind, schooling exercises that keep him really engaged, loads of transitions, half halts before he starts to take the rein, leg yield before a canter transition then onto a circle would keep his mind listening to you, not sure an instructor that cannot help without gadgets is my idea of really good.
 
Thanks for your comments but not really taking after your name Be Positive!:-) .... believe me this is evasion not learnt behaviour due to my riding!

He's been doing it for just a few weeks - his tactic was to pull reins, throw me off balance & forward so he that he didn't have to go forward, he would just stop. The letting go is purely so I can keep my seat & push him forward, to stop him from evading going forward. I can then regather reins until he drops reins again.

It's the snatching reins & carting off I need to now stop before it gets a major problem.... And best now than months down the lie. He s a big strong cob that knows it!

I was in middle of serpentine loops, 10 m circles, leg yielding exercise (all mixed in together round cones) when he first did it so wouldn't say his mind wasn't occupied either. I've already learnt he is very intelligent & needs to be occupied.

But thanks for comments though

Oooh and made me smile when you said they don't think up new ways to avoid work - if you met him you may change your mind on that he. But he has taught / is teaching me a lot in the process.
 
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Sounds like a double bridle or a pelham/kimblewick sort of thing would help for a while: many cobs don't do well in snaffles and really need the curb action to counteract their very strong necks and heavy front ends. Please note: I am NOT suggesting a "stronger" bit to be used as "brakes"; I have found that most cobs need a bit of a lift in front to help them to balance.
 
Well... Why not try? Pick one up cheap second hand, mine was about £15 from ebay, and try it.
You pay your instructor for professional advice, so take it. If it doesn't work- sell it on.
 
Hmmm, i would be inclined to follow the advice form Cortez...not a stronger bit for the sake of it being stronger, but for the sake of the difference in action making the ability to snatch you out of your seat much more difficult for him.

But...I have a few issues here that really I would be surprised if your instructor hasn't already mentioned. If she has, please let us know...if she hasn't...maybe not the right instructor after all.

1/ a horse, no matter how big or strong should not be able to pull a rider off balance by doing what you say your horse does...pull the reins out of your hands maybe, but not pull you out of balance. I would first be looking at your position and ability to change it or shall I say, "tweak" it depending on the situation. I teach a few kids with ponies that do this to them and this is an exercise I use to show them something really important IMO about position on horses that snatch, drop a shoulder, try to grab at grass or when jumping an doing cross country to name a few...

Sit on your horse, stationary and have someone strong stand in front of your horse. Hold the reins in the normal position, but close to the buckle so there is extra rein for the person standing to hold. Have them hold the reins, facing the horse as they would if they were riding...only they don't have a horses head at the end of their reins...they have you, so they are facing you and the horse. Both hold tight and ask the person to, without telling you when...pull hard and fast on the reins. If you fall forward, you will do the very same when the horse pulls. Now,,,change your position...put your lower legs forward slightly and make a conscious effort to sit tall. Ask the person to do it again and I bet you move less. Then...do it a third time where you are actually leaning back a little...you'll hardly move at all.

So, first thing, make sure position is strong and secure so that the horse cannot pull you out of balance so easily. The great benefit of this is that altering this will help your position stay strong through all of your work if you keep it going which will make it much easier for you to prevent and if necessary, deal with any other little shoulder dropping, motorbiking type things.

2/ try not to let go when he does this, it is an instant reward and it will teach him to do it more. Horses are able to learn behaviours very easily. Instead, concentrate always on your secure position and pick your strongest hand. When he snatches, let go with your weak hand but hold bloody tight with your strong hand. It gives an instant correction. It won't pull him around or anything nasty....just give an instant correction. Don't pull back, that is punishment and no need for that...just hold the rein tight in your secure position and let go with the weak hand.

3/ There will be a reason the horse is constantly testing you and in most cases where I see this, it boils down to one word...DYNAMIC! It is always good practise on my opinion yo get on your horse, give it a nice relaxed, quiet warm up and gently start asking for more work. However, with testy horses like yours sounds, the moment someone like and instructor or pro rider gets on, they don't put a foot wrong. This has happened recently with someone I currently teach. Stubborn but very talented Sec D and he knows precisely what he is doing. Refuses to do canter transitions from the best of trots...I get on and get a smooth and precise walk to canter after just walking a 20 metre circle. Owner asked me a couple of months ago to show her exactly what I do and although I did get on and show her...I explained it is more about attitude. With this horse and others like him...I don't get on hoping he will do as I ask or hoping he won't misbehave. I get on expecting him to do as I ask because I know he can do it all so easily and demanding he does not misbehave. It is a state of mind. It is being dynamic. It is asking for something nicely and if it isn't given, saying, "NOW" and making it very black and white what you want and when you want it. This is NOT something I will ever do on a young horse or when asking a horse to do something it is not fully established in, but basic manouvres on horses like this and damn right they can do it when I ask.

Perhaps warm the horse up first by a hack, horse walker or little lunge and then when you get on...mean bloody business. Be quick to reward the good, but equally as quick correcting the bad.

Grass reins can work, but that could also end up causing a hard mouth and soreness.

Speak with your instructor and ask them what is their plan or approach going to be to deal with this and all other issues.

But...it does sound to me like this is just a symptom. You can cure all the symptoms and spend years doing it, but if you don't find and treat the cause, you're just going to be stuck in groundhog day.

There will be a reason and usually with horses like this...it's because they've learned they can. A clever horse that knows how to get the better of you will just be having fun doing it in different ways...doing each one until it is no long pleasant.

This is based on my experience of horses like this and position insecurity with the riders that I teach and have taught, so take it on board if you want, as food for thought, but remember that I am not there to watch you and the horse, so anything I or anyone else says is only on the basis of what you have mentioned....we just don't have the full picture.

Hope that all made sense :D
 
If he's only been doing it a few weeks & it sounds like it was when you were asking him to work properly, then I would investigate pain related causes rather than gadgets. Book a Physio session to see if he's tweaked something or got any tension anywhere. Good luck.
 
Cortez said:
Sounds like a double bridle or a pelham/kimblewick sort of thing would help for a while: many cobs don't do well in snaffles and really need the curb action to counteract their very strong necks and heavy front ends. Please note: I am NOT suggesting a "stronger" bit to be used as "brakes"; I have found that most cobs need a bit of a lift in front to help them to balance.
Click to expand...


This ^ totally agree, particularly with the final sentance :)
 
OP, you have my sympathy. I have an extremely intelligent Luso, who seems to spend most of his time trying to find new ways of avoiding work. I agree with GG's comments, you need to ensure your core is strong and to be a brick wall for when he pulls. By that I mean that when he pulls, you don't pull back, you just remain solid. My instructor did the exercise GG mentioned and it is quite enlightening. My horse had a really rough start in life and so we have a lot of emotional baggage. Consequently, without intending to, I let him get away with things that I wouldn't normally allow. I have found thinking that I am sat on a another horse rather than my boy, completely changes my riding and stops him getting the better of me. I would also consider a change if bit. My boy goes much better in a Pelham. He has a very soft mouth and brakes are absolutely not an issue, he just seems to be much happier with the Pelham rather than a snaffle (he was previously in a NS loose ring training snaffle). Good luck
 
OH's cob had a trick of snatch the bit and bogging off or insanely leaning on your hands, a couple of weeks of schooling in a waterford snaffle and he seems to have learnt that he can't get away with it - now back in a hanging cheeck snaffle and happier :)

Would also agree that a Market Harbrough won't help, used one on my head flinging TB, wouldn't try it on OH's cob!
 
Lots of good advice there, but do get a saddle fitter to check your saddle before the physio and assuming your vet hasn't found anything. Also remember cobs often have fat tongues so bear it in mind when selecting a bit.

You may find it useful to have lessons and assessment from an equine behaviour consultant. I suspect there may be some aspects of management which are inadvertently contributing to his behaviour. Natives are often in touch with their inner feral. See the SEBC website for someone near you.
Good luck.
 
Did you sort out your problem? I had an exracehorse that would canter along nicely and then when frustrated at not being allowed to go any faster would throw his head into the air and snatch the reins. It could pull me off balance enough to make my arms go forward, he got more rein and then his neck would go out and we were away chasing the horse in front. I have a balance strap on the saddle and by just hooking my little finger under the strap it was enough to stop my hands being yanked forward when he snatched. Because he did not win and I was able to stay balanced and in control he gave up trying.
 
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