Reins and collection aargh

dwi

dwi

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I want to start taking Daisy to some combined training this year and there is a nice walk and trot test to ease us in in May that I have my eye on. The problem is that she'll do the jumps easily but our dressage is really going to let us down.

I have had a few lessons but at £33 an hour we can't afford one every week.

She lope along quite happily all strung out but I'm having real difficulty getting her to come up off the ground and lift into a contact. When I watch myself ride on the video my reins are clearly too long but I feel like I'm pulling against her when I shorten them, either that or she gets over excited and stops listening. The only thing that makes her really listen and soften is lateral work but unfortunately as soon as we go back into a normal walk or trot she reverts to her day job of happy hacker and lopes along again.

Any tips on how to maintain that softness and feel when we're doing basic things like circles?
 
near derby

are you volunteering to come and show me?
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Flit abroad? Where are you hoping to move to?

I'm assuming you won't move anywhere with an antiquated internet infrastructure....I couldn't cope with you not posting Tierra!

You have fast become one of my other "oracles". There's a member on here who I often refer to as my "oracle" when I'm asking yet another question, usually about something incredibly trivial.
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Im emigrating to Denmark
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Taking horsey with me of course and then picking up some training over there and going for their professional riding and teaching qualifications (dressage specifically).

Leaving in ummmm about a month now!

And yes, I'll still be on here
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I know Patches would join that Clique. She's convinced that's all she's meant to be doing! Not sure she's impressed with my delusions of grandeur!
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I have similar problems to you. Patches always seems strung out with a low head carriage when I ride. She can use her back end lovely and tracks up and over, but if I try to "gather her up" a bit more I just feel I'm fighting her as she's not soft through her jaw.

Lateral work does wonders for Patches. Problem is she enjoys it so much she gets all excitable, second guessing what you're going to ask of her. This anticipation means the movements go a bit "off" as you're trying to leg yield and she's trying to turn on forehand instead as she's good at that! (or so she thinks) Bless her, she's so keen!
 
Oh wow! That's wonderful. What an experience that will be for you. Sounds like it'll be a good "leg-up" as well for your career in riding.

Congratulations! I wish you all the best. As long as you don't forget us little people!
 
I suspect both of you have issues with not being able to get the horses infront of your legs enough. I also suspect both of you are slightly guilty of being a tad too soft on them
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If you generate the energy from behind, then all you need to be doing is containing this. Remember you need the horses to lift up from their backs to round correctly through their necks. This wont be achieved with the hands, all that will do is drag their heads down and or in and create neck curl (this is where the outline breaks before the poll resulting in a point midway up the neck being the highest point as opposed to the poll).

That being said, it always SOUNDS so easy but putting it into practice is difficult for nearly everyone!
 
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you're trying to leg yield and she's trying to turn on forehand instead as she's good at that! (or so she thinks) Bless her, she's so keen!

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That is sooo Daisy, "What was that, did you say shoulder in?" as I thought I was asking for a turn about the haunches.
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I suspect both of you have issues with not being able to get the horses infront of your legs enough. I also suspect both of you are slightly guilty of being a tad too soft on them
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If you generate the energy from behind, then all you need to be doing is containing this. Remember you need the horses to lift up from their backs to round correctly through their necks.


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Presumably this is why it seems easy to get her how I want when we're jumping because she gets excited so the energy is coming naturally and all I need to do is hold it together rather than create it myself.

At the moment we seem to be stuck on a viscious circle where we either trot really slowly but calmly or we trot really fast. If I try to hold her in with my back and seat she plops back to loping along again. We have brief moments where it all seems lovely but then most of the time I feel like I'm riding with the handbrake on. I know it can't be my hands though because my reins tend to go like washing lines.
 
Lateral work IS very good. The more lateral work you can do in your warm ups in walk, the better your resulting trot work will be.

I do so much lateral work in walk before I so much as touch another gait.... Usually do a lot of leg yield straight to shoulder in, switch from there straight to haunches in, change the rein with half pass, rinse and repeat. Generally I'll spend about 15 minutes on this before moving to canter - doing laterals there and then finally returning to trot (the pace i have the most difficult with
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Presumably this is why it seems easy to get her how I want when we're jumping because she gets excited so the energy is coming naturally and all I need to do is hold it together rather than create it myself.

At the moment we seem to be stuck on a viscious circle where we either trot really slowly but calmly or we trot really fast. If I try to hold her in with my back and seat she plops back to loping along again. We have brief moments where it all seems lovely but then most of the time I feel like I'm riding with the handbrake on. I know it can't be my hands though because my reins tend to go like washing lines.

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Jeepers!!! Are we and our horses related? I was just going to say the only time I feel Patches is infront of my leg is when there's a jump up in the field. She gets quite excitable and the flatwork improves no end! I know I am guilty of attempting to over ride her to get impulsion. Doesn't work though. Just ends up with me being tired and frustrated. I'm sure Patches smirks when she realises I've worked far harder than she has!
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I always explain that Patches is indeed very responsive to the leg...in that she moves off my leg or voice commands instantly. It's not that she won't trot...it's that she lollops along in trot like you describe dwi. I've been doing LOADS of transitions with Patches (hundreds) in a session and have made it my mission to not do a complete circuit of my schooling area on the same rein. Constantly changing the gait, rein and movements so as she doesn't know what's coming next. This does get her quite excitable. I'd rather be containing her when she's too forward, than struggling to get her to trot faster than I can walk! I also think Patches switches off if you try to circle endlessly...can't say I blame her.

I put three fences up and sometimes some trotting poles. I use the fences as a little course, jumping them in rotation from different directions and in a different order. It really helps to motivate her.

If I ride with another horse I also find Patches shows off and is much more forward too. Infact, she can be quite strong in company.

I'm sure I'm guilty of boring her.
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Yes, exactly.

From the minute you start your trot work you need to be focussing on the engine rather than anything else. Ignore the whole outline issue, its completly irrelevant.

You need to get her really powering forwards and often, particularly if you're a tad soft on your horses, it can feel like you're bullying them almost too much. The thing with dressage is that what you see in an arena or in a test is the END result of the warming up. Many people watch dressage riders and think "oh they hardly move!" but thats the end product.

Once the horse is infront of the leg, doing anything becomes 99% easier. When they start engaging their back end, the lift through the back comes more automatically, as does the lightness in the front end... thats what then gives rise to the head carriage.

Only when the trot is really really motoring forwards should you start to think about any sort of asking with the rein.

For me (and this is of course personal to me and my horse), when I start the trot work its on a reasonably loose rein and involves a LOT of leg.... Once there you can "ask" with the rein which need be a tiny squeeze on the inside rein... if he responds even a smidge, give the hands forwards (both) and make sure you keep the forward impulsion with the leg. When you start to lose the bend again, apply the leg, ask with the hand, wait on the response and give forwards with the hand again. This can go on for a while with a lot of "got it; lost it; got it; lost it" business. The key is always to remember that the rein has to be given back to the horse when it gives to you. Thats why I say it comes from the leg and not the hand

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The above is far from perfect but thats what im doing there.

But it is very hard work and whats worse, often requires very very fast responses from the rider. This comes quite simply with time and practice sadly but tbh, working a horse correctly is one of those things that most of us will spend a lifetime persuing so you certainly shouldnt be hard on yourselves. The other issue is that all horses are different and while its all well and good to try and apply the same rules to all, the fact remains that there always has to be some tweaking of these to suit each horse :|
 
I can Patches to a stage where she's stepping under a bit better, but I've never really been taught much about subtle rein aids.

At the riding school I was taught at it, it wasn't technical. It was all about you being able to start, stop, turn and sit to the various gaits. Lateral work and horses working in an outline were never on the agenda...or at least not at the level I was at.

It's only since I've had my own horse and am keen to improve not just the way I sit but HER way of going, that I'm struggling.

This is about as forward as I can get Patches in trot. Her head carriage isn't on the floor as normal, but she's still not softened through the jaw. Reading what you've put though, Tierra, has given me something to work on. Clear technical instructions on how to ask a horse to soften and flex at the poll.

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I must say though, I do think it's harder for cob type horses to flex at the poll properly. Patches is so thick through the jaw/neck.
 
Yes, it is harder for cobby type horses to flex due to their physical structure around the jaw / atlas area. To me there, she looks nice. I would 100% much rather see a horse working like that that over bent and with this silly neck curl business you see all the time these days.

Obviously, ive never seen her in the flesh or sat on her but my inclination at that exact point where you have posted that picture would be to squeeze slightly on the inside rein. Depending upon her response... if she felt like she softed even a smidge, id then give with both reins and tell her (vocally) thats shes good. Just after giving, I'd be applying the leg again. Any softness or give from her will probably only last a stride or so, so ask again and give again. Make sure all the time that you don't lose any of your engine. Its easy to get caught up in the asking and forget the impulsion (this is why so much co-ordination is required in riding).

I also use a lot of voice when riding. Not everyone agrees with it because in the case of competitions, you cant but for me its a necessity. Its often underestimated how much horses will respond to your voice. Tell her, consistently that shes good when shes even given you a little bit. If she then hollows away and raises her head again after a few strides, say no (albeit dont go over the top as some riders do
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). It helps the horse to understand. She already knows how to tell when you're pleased or angry with her via your voice. Use it to help teach her what you're wanting in the school too
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You have a lovely position so Im sure its more a lack of knowing how to ask than anything else. And for some reason, so many trainers are quite mystical in this department and don't like to help people out :P
 
Thanks Tierra. So many tips to go on. I told you that you're my new oracle! (I assume you've seen the matrix lol). Hope you don't mind me hijacking dwi. (muscling in on your thread more like) I just feel we have such similar problems that we can both benefit equally from Tierra's excellent advice.)

She does often soften for a stride or two and I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I think I'm too slow to react to her. The art of asking a horse to soften doesn't come naturally to me so I'm constantly thinking and playing over in my mind what I need to do to get her to work better. Therefore, I most likely miss my "window of opportunity" when she offers me some flexion.

I do talk to her when I'm lungeing and riding and she loves to have that feedback. She certainly listens to me and responds positively to my voice.

As far as trainers and being mystical are concerned. I often find that so many assume you know what they mean when they say "more inside bend" blah blah. They don't tell you how they'd achieve it, just seem to think you should automatically know which aids to apply to match the instruction they've given you.
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Not sure if you can tell from the attire, but we had a fence up when that pic was taken. Hence her looking so much happier about working!

She has moments where she gives too much and goes overbent, like this, where she also snatches downwards with the bit:
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For the most part we look more like this.
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She will reach into a contact when walking though. I've always thought she has a half decent free walk for the type of horse she is. (although I was guilty of just looking at my watch in this pic...hence weird hands)
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OH said that I had to come of H&H and go to bed last night, sorry for disappearing halfway through a conversation.
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I've got loads of video footage of me riding last night that I'll try and get some stills from but I'm far too untechnical to get it without OH here to show me which bits to plug in.

Patches looking at your piccies I definitely think that we have the same problem, right the way down to the occassionally being overbent. I'm also from a riding school background which was great for teaching me to sit bucks and getting stubborn horses moving but not so great on the finer points. We should definitely compare our progress as we try applying Tierra's words of wisdom

Tierra you are a fab instructor, what you said there was very clear. I think that I'm going to have to go back to riding with more leg and redesign from there. My current instructor has me doing lots of half halts with the outside rein but what you're saying makes alot of sense, i suspect i'd beeen guilty of neglecting the inside rein and so have confused the poor mare.
 
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