Relationship between riding and conformation

soloequestrian

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I have something specific in mind but also interested in general thoughts on this!
My project horse has a back shape at the dipped end of the spectrum. I would post a picture if I were less technically incompetent. He isn't extreme, just slightly dipped. He tends to move with his back legs slightly disengaged and his head up, for instance when he is startled out in the field. He wasn't ridden for several years before I got him, and before he was turned away he had a saddle that really didn't fit him. He has been in work for about 6 months with me. His go-to response when ridden was to hollow and tense his neck at the withers ('ears up my nose'). We are gradually reducing that - he is getting much better at working with his head low and neck extended. The thing that has got me thinking about conformation though is that this week I tried some back lifts with him. I've never managed to do these with other horses, but he has an itchy spot on his sternum and when I itch it and push up he does a huge back lift, with his abdominal muscled really contracting and his back flattening out. He seems to enjoy doing the lift (or enjoys the scratch and doesn't mind the lift, not sure which). The point of the ramble is I'm wondering with time if his back shape might become less dipped. I know his abdominals can improve a lot and that should improve his conformation in itself but will it also make him less hollow over time? He also has a dip in front of the wither which I'm hoping will improve as his way of going improves.
I suppose the discussion point is how much the relatively short time spent being ridden can influence general conformation and movement the rest of the time? I don't know if he has always had this type of conformation and movement that has meant his training was difficult, or whether better training might have prevented it happening....and might still manage to improve it.... possibly improve it beyond what might have been if he'd never been ridden.... or if having had two years off ridden work means that his current conformation is how he is, with no influence from riding. Hope that makes sense!
 
If I had 2 years off I really hope no one would judge me on my conformation at that point :eek:

In all seriousness it sounds like your boy has a natural tendency to being hollow but good consistent work can make a massive difference.
It will also take time for his brain to register the ‘new normal’ in his way of holding himself as his musculature improves. The fact that he is capable of lifting his back so much when prompted is positive.
When he was out of work was he turned out 24/7 or spending time stabled? and how old is he?
 
Several years ago 2 ponies came in at livery one as a retired companion, he had a fairly pronounced dipped back and I was told he had been retired due to this, a bit of digging and it turned out he had started life at the very top level showing, in hand then ridden, being highly placed at HOYs before being gelded and sold on, he gradually dropped down the levels until finally ending up in a RS at working livery where I suspect he struggled to cope with novices and became more hollow in his way of going until he became obviously unlevel, hence retiring and being given away as a companion.
I saw the glint was still in his eyes so asked if we could try bringing him back into work with a view to him being suitable for a keen local girl who had no pony to ride, his owner, the vet and physio were happy so we gradually brought him back with a very steady rehab, his back strengthened, it never came back to where it would have been when he was young but he was working well enough to win prelim dressage with his very inexperienced rider, he enjoyed jumping and did a little competing, we found the more he did the better he went, the stronger his back became.
He has now retired again after teaching several riders the ropes and I think having the proper work for about 4 years we have probably extended his life as his back seems to be far better than it was when he arrived, having a well fitting saddle helped but he did change shape so much he had to have the first replaced as it was too banana shaped.

A long ramble but if a 20 year old can change a younger one should be able to, we did a lot of long low work, a fair bit of lunging as he needed more cantering without a rider on to really get him engaged, he did tummy lifts and other stretches daily and a fair bit of polework, it helped that his confo was very good and he moves really well but a younger one should be able to improve given correct consistent work over a reasonable, we took about 6 months to get fit and see a real difference, period of time.
 
Oooo. I need to respond to this with pictures I think. But it's a bit late now. Will share Granny horse pictures tomorrow.

You have to work them carefully and correctly and do good physio exercises but you can to some extent improve the dipped back and prolong the health of their back. They will always tend towards becoming more dippy if out if work but good work can slow the process.

And a dippy back is a comfortable seat!
 
Thanks, that's all interesting and encouraging! He is almost 10 and was on full turnout while he was off. We're just starting to canter out on hacks now and he is exploring a lower head carriage in canter - I feel like that will help him a lot, especially as we have lots of hills. I'll have a go at some pole work too!
 
Boring answer but IMO correct inhand work "fixes" horses better than riding.

When riding the horse has the rider and all their imbalances plus saddle. The saddle fit is even more crucial when working to change the shape.

As riders we cause all sorts of issues and compensations in the horse because we are rarely/never 100% straight, equal and balanced.

There is loads of reading and videos out there covering this sort of thing.

I'm not saying don't/you shouldn't be riding; just than when trying to make quite big changes to shape and way of going its often simpler when the horse only has to carry himself.


https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Correct-...rect+movement+in+horses&qid=1590823049&sr=8-1

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Straight...rect+movement+in+horses&qid=1590823070&sr=8-3

https://www.manolomendezdressage.com


https://www.straightnesstraining.com/where-to-start/

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Schoolin...=1&keywords=core+horses&qid=1590823478&sr=8-2

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Correcti...=1&keywords=core+horses&qid=1590823478&sr=8-3

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Core-Con...=1&keywords=core+horses&qid=1590823478&sr=8-6

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Activate...1&keywords=core+horses&qid=1590823478&sr=8-10
 
Big YES! To the in-hand work. I did a lot with Granny horse and her back was in the best shape when I was doing the most. Once I semi-retired her so less schooling etc her back started to sink again. But other things were starting to make schooling etc difficult so it was a trade off. But the in-hand work and correct ridden schooling prolonged the working life of her back for definite.
 
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So I have pictures... the improvement isn't as obvious in the pictures as it was in real life and the way she moved. I absolutely think if I'd just hacked on a long rein all the time or schooled her in a hauled front end in at all costs way she'd have been out of work due to her back in two years flat. As it was I got her at 14 (after 5 years in a field) and she stayed in some kind of ridden work until she was 20...

When she first arrived (I was shit too)
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When she was in the most good work.
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And retired and letting it all hang out again!
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I was so naive that I didn't even notice the dippy back when I got her and working on it with focus came later, but I was lucky with my instructor so I was started on the right path without realising. I think if Id started focussed physio work earlier I'd have seen an even bigger improvement.
 
OP I imagine that because your horse can do a good back lift that his dipped back is not a conformation fault but that his back and core are weak.

The back lift is a good thing to keep doing, you can use it to monitor progress by checking how long he will stay in the back lift once you have stopped scratching and take your hands away. Work towards getting a long slow release back to the normal position.
 
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I've had a search and I can't find the old thread but I'll describe it. Also hopefully someone with better search skills will know what I'm on about and find it. *crosses fingers* It really is worth looking at the photos if they can be tracked down.

There have been several 'transformation' or 'before and after' type threads on here but once a poster put photos of their bay pony gelding (I think that's correct) from when they first bought him and after they had had him a while. If the markings hadn't been the same you just wouldn't have believed it was the same pony. I think he had been an older chap anyway and he looked weak and upside down. Dipped back, ewe neck and just generally hollow, on the forehand and old.

In the after photo he looked about 15 years younger and he was a better weight and round! He was lifting his back (which no longer looked dipped) and stepping through from behind and working into the bit. No hauling the head in, this poster had schooled the pony properly and it had dramatically changed his body for the better.

It was completely amazing. :)
 
She has a very kind eye PV, but also a very funky back ?

Oh she was all kinds of wrong but she walked up to me in the field with that face and it was a done deal!

She obviously didn't start with the best conformation but she'd had haul the head in schooling as a young horse I think, razzed around as a teens pony club horse anyway... then put in foal to a huge warmblood stallion... then left in a field for 5 years with the occasional long rein hack at best without any corrective physio for what the big foal did to her. Noone meant bad and she was very much loved, just people don't know I guess.

Working with her taught me an awful lot though! And despite the conformation she was never a sick note or a walking vet's bill.
 
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I know the thread that you mean @Meowy Catkin and I remember the bay too. Cantnfor the life of me remember the poster ?

Doing backlifts, stretches and exercises help loads too.

Simple core exercises can be standing the horse square and hold a feed bucket at chest level, as the horse eats gently move the bucket in a square. This will make the horse rock back, side and forward loading one limb more at a time.

Figure 8 movements with the front hooves as they are gradually lowered, gentle hindlimb stretches and tail pulls/figure of 8s. Another good one is pushing on each seat bone individually so the horse leans into it then very, very slowly releasing.

Pole work can be a huge help too, not just the traditional poles/raised poles but serpentine along them and straddling them.

I'm trying to think what books illustrate them best and goes without saying to follow vet/physio/chiro/bodyworker advice.

https://www.horsesinsideout.com/product-page/pilates-and-stretching

https://www.horsesinsideout.com/product-page/pilates-for-horses


https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Posture-...ce&qid=1590831188&sprefix=posture+and+&sr=8-1

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Training...words=horse+poles+book&qid=1590831340&sr=8-11

Another good way for improving muscle tone and getting to know the horses body and feel for changes is good, thorough grooming and hands on time. When you are rehabbing and/or changing the shape of a horse they are going to get sore. Muscle builds by being torn and then rebuilding. Collection is a lot of muscle contraction too so there needs to be release (collected trot is akin to us holding a squat with a heavy barbell). Efflurage massage can help after a schooling session too.

This is a great book (hes got dvds too) for picking up simple touches that cam be done daily in next to know time (but then you get releases and it becomes addictive trying to get more ?)

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Beyond-H...&keywords=horse+massage&qid=1590831431&sr=8-3

This book looks good too

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Horse-Ma...&keywords=horse+massage&qid=1590831431&sr=8-5
 
That's amazing. Makes my efforts with Granny horse look a bit poor! I had no idea what I was doing and had to learn. ?
 
it's unusual that the pictures are still working in an old post :D
seems like the ones linked from FB don't last very long, something that will be annoying in the future when looking back at older threads.
 
OMG, I looked through that link and found this one. Amazing!

I love this post!! The change in everyone ponies is wonderful see!! Gives you an excuse to get the picture out!!


This is Pepper aged 15, the first week I had him with little to no education ...and then Pepper aged 16 a year later!😆
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Same as above, Pepper one year on and one year older!💕
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And this him now!! 17yrs old, I've had him 2yrs and he's gone from strength to strength!
image_zpsaptxhcus.jpeg
 
That's my reading sorted for tonight then! That Pepper transformation is astonishing, his owner should be given a medal. I certainly hope she was given the horse! Makes mine look very normal. I've tried to post a picture but it just keeps saying 'oops there was a problem'.
 
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