Remedial Farriers in NW? + update on the broken one

[dressagelove]

So, vet came this morning, and nerve blocked A's left fore which was the lame one. He then went spectacularly lame on the right! So he nerve blocked that, and he went sound again, (nerve blocks were the lowest ones he could do; just the back of the foot) So I started panicking thinking navic! Anyway he xrayed him, and good news, all his bones and joints looked fine and fairly healthy!

Which kind of brings us back to square one... vet thinks it is muscular / ligament / soft ligament damage, which could only be confirmed with an MRI. I am not insured for vets fees and am not prepared to pay for one of these, they cost more than my lad is worth! In any case vet said the most common injury is a damaged deep flexor tendon, which doesnt treat well anyway, not a lot you can do about that...?

So, treatment options for me he outlined are wedged heel shoes to take pressure off the back of his legs, and then possibly steroid injections into the affected area and see if it gives the damage a chance to recover. Does anyone have any experience with such injuries / how effective the injections would be? I only really need him happy and sound enough to low level dressage and hacking, his eventing days are over! (he is only 10 btw so seems unfair to write him off just yet)

Also, not satisfied my farrier is doing a good enough job, plus he is not a remedial farrier, does anyone know a good NW remedial farrier with experience of good wedged shoes?

He had his shoes off a month ago, but the vet doesn't recommend barefootedness as an option, it will take too long for him to build his own heel up...(?)

Thanks in advance

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I cannot comment on his hooves without an up to date photo, but if he was mine I'd keep field rest in mind as an option. Preferably a whole year out 24/7 with a really good farrier/trimmer taking care of his hooves. I would also rather avoid wedges if possible.

 

[maggiesmum]

Soft tissue damage in the back of the foot comes under the 'navicular' umbrella! Regardless as to whether there are any changes to the bones the majority of horses will have some kind of either ligament or tendon damage, its usually a pre-cursor to bone changes.
So effectively your horse has the onset of navicular syndrome, to which i'd highly recommend looking at barefoot, you say the shoes have been off for a month, how is he getting on? Is he foot sore at all?

I'd avoid wedges like the plague, they might help at first but ultimately they'll cause far more harm than good. Why settle for just getting him hacking and dressage sound when theres a very good chance he could be back in full work and eventing?

Personally id recommend having a look here, Paul Jackson is a farrier / barefoot trimmer based in cheshire, and sadly I find vets far more willing to listen when a farrier is giving advice - http://uknhcp.org.uk/uknhcpqualifiedpractitioners.html

Even if you still feel its not for you, it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion?

 

[dressagelove]

Yes, thanks guys, I was disappointed when my vet suggested wedges, as I am not really a fan, having heard nothing but negativity about them. After all the raves about barefootedness on here, I asked him about using barefoot as a treatment option, but he didn't seem to support it.
And as much as I would like to think the natural way is best, I am a novice at BF, and as much as I would like to take the word of strangers on a forum as gospel, I do have to listen to this 'qualified' people treating my horse are saying, it is difficult to disagree with them, when I don't have anyone really supporting the BF other than in virtual cyberspace if understand? Without being rude to you lot! I respect a lot of the advice from people on here! I am going against my farrier, a previous vet and now this vet in terms of what they are advising, it is so frustrating!!

I havent had a qualified trimmer to see my horse yet, this may be something I now try before going for remedial shoes, as I say I was reluctant to go for that route
I have been quite pleased with how is is transitioning to BF, his soles have already hardened up fantastically, and although they still look a bit of a mess, they are growing better quality horn at the top, due to changes in his diet etc. He is still very flat footed however...

I am just completely unsure of what direction to go in now... Advice is welcome, please!!!

 

[dressagelove]

Bump, where are all the barefooters shouting at me not to remedial?

 

[goodtimes]

Where abouts in the north west are you?
Richard Johnson is very good

 

[Oberon]

Bump, where are all the barefooters shouting at me not to remedial?

If you truly believe wedges will help and your vet's advice makes sense to you, then there's nothing I can say really.

You have to do what you and your vet think is best.

All I will do is let you follow Dillon's progress
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/sneak-preview.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/horse-with-wedges-continued.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/dillon-in-and-out-of-wedges.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/07/dillon-3-week-update.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/08/dillon-and-wedges-continued.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/horse-of-week-dillon-with-wedges.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/dillon-with-wedges-and-more-from-h.html

 

[dressagelove]

If you truly believe wedges will help and your vet's advice makes sense to you, then there's nothing I can say really.

You have to do what you and your vet think is best.

All I will do is let you follow Dillon's progress
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/sneak-preview.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/horse-with-wedges-continued.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/06/dillon-in-and-out-of-wedges.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/07/dillon-3-week-update.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/08/dillon-and-wedges-continued.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/10/horse-of-week-dillon-with-wedges.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/01/dillon-with-wedges-and-more-from-h.html

Well that's what Im saying, Im not sure I do believe wedges will help... Im just so worried about making the wrong decision! Can I pm you oberon? I will do now
Thanks for those links, Ill have a look

 

[A Guilding]

Inappropriate fitting of remedial shoes are death to horses like yours. You need a rationale for the selection of the type of shoe and the ancillary features. there are a multitude of pathology's that require different approaches some needing to relieve pressure some needing to focus pressure. Wedges are ok if there is no other option, but someones best guess on the appropriate shoe is the last thing your horse needs.

 

[dressagelove]

Inappropriate fitting of remedial shoes are death to horses like yours. You need a rationale for the selection of the type of shoe and the ancillary features. there are a multitude of pathology's that require different approaches some needing to relieve pressure some needing to focus pressure. Wedges are ok if there is no other option, but someones best guess on the appropriate shoe is the last thing your horse needs.

Thanks for your input so you are saying what? To continue barefoot as opposed to guessing at which shoe will work?

 

[A Guilding]

Thanks for your input so you are saying what? To continue barefoot as opposed to guessing at which shoe will work?

Not necessarily, but the term remedial farrier implies a presumed knowledge of the type of treatment your horse needs, but with no definitive diagnosis then how will the farrier decide what action to take? Quite often a diognosis is made on the absence of other clinical symptoms, but a bit more investigation would be required to say that and which shoe, heart bar, french bar, egg bar, or graduated bar, etc, each deal with separate pathology's all in the same region.

 

[TigerTail]

The reason the vet wouldnt be pro barefoot is because he will know jack ***** about it - and no im not kidding.

My sister is one and has said as much, they dont even cover barefoot for work never mind remedial. They only cover remedial shoeing which is why that is all they know to recommend.

Only a specialist equine vet with an interest in barefoot/holistic care would suggest barefoot.

Come on BF taliban, which trimmers are near the OP??

 

[dressagelove]

The reason the vet wouldnt be pro barefoot is because he will know jack ***** about it - and no im not kidding.

My sister is one and has said as much, they dont even cover barefoot for work never mind remedial. They only cover remedial shoeing which is why that is all they know to recommend.

Only a specialist equine vet with an interest in barefoot/holistic care would suggest barefoot.

Come on BF taliban, which trimmers are near the OP??

I have been recommended Paul Jackson (?) who I have emailed and rung, but nothing back as yet, am very keen to get them out asap! you lot really have converted me to BF and I am so reluctant to give up on it. But I now know I need to professional help from someone who knows what they are talking about so they can come out and see it and help me...

 

[maggiesmum]

Paul would be a great place to start because he is also a farrier and that makes a whole heap of difference to a vet, my friends horse was slightly lame and the vets all but refused to do anything apart from tell her to shoe it and seemed to have very little respect for the opinion of her trimmer, she had a 2nd opinion from Paul and all of a sudden the vets were more than happy with the horse staying barefoot and to investigate the lameness!!
Its very sad but they only trust what they know and they know farriers.

Do lots of reading and research, become your own expert, once you understand the mechanics of how the foot and lower limb work (just the basics are enough for it to make sense) you'll soon start to see why shoes cause so much damage and also how easily the damage can more often than not be repaired.

 

[abitodd]

I have been recommended Paul Jackson (?) who I have emailed and rung, but nothing back as yet, am very keen to get them out asap! you lot really have converted me to BF and I am so reluctant to give up on it. But I now know I need to professional help from someone who knows what they are talking about so they can come out and see it and help me...

Paul Jackson is an excellent choice.
He is however a very busy man,so you may have to wait a few days for a response. (Busy farriers often prefer to call back when they have a free slot for you,don't think he is ignoring you,just hang on for a response.)

Good luck.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Why not try barefoot BEFORE resorting to remedial shoes? This is what I'm doing with my mare, with support and help from people on this forum who have given me some invaluable advice....I'm struggling tremendously at the moment (3 months in) as my horse can't work and is turned out in the day in a mudbath which is frozen solid in the morning and hock deep by afternoon, and it's not an easy choice. It won't cure overnight, but I'm not giving up. My thoughts are that after another few months, if my mare is still not happy, then I can always go back to shoes (and at least there will be decent hoof!), but I don't want to destroy her feet with remedial shoes first, and then have no hoof left to try barefoot with afterwards. It's definitely worth a try, but you need to be patient....good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[maggiesmum]

turned out in the day in a mudbath which is frozen solid in the morning and hock deep by afternoon, .

Just a though but any chance you can turn out overnight, I think the ground is likely to be more consistent?

 

[Holly Hocks]

Just a though but any chance you can turn out overnight, I think the ground is likely to be more consistent?

No, unfortunately we're not allowed to do that until about April time. As much as I prefer horses to be out, she seems to be improving if I limit her turnout time in the swamp....

 

[cptrayes]

The rehab I did had the lot. Bar shoes, adequan, tildren, HLA injections and was still so unsound that his owner decided to have him put to sleep. I took him on and he was sound to come second in a dressage competition after 11 weeks, do a farm ride with jumping at 13 weeks, won a National showing class at a year and now hunts.

His record is not uncommon. His vet and farrier didn't believe in barefoot either.

With the record of Rockleyfarm returning written off horses to work in the face of some very sceptical vets and farriers and after all other treatment has failed, what have you to lose by trying a barefoot rehab first and shoeing then if it fails?

 

[cptrayes]

Not necessarily, but the term remedial farrier implies a presumed knowledge of the type of treatment your horse needs, but with no definitive diagnosis then how will the farrier decide what action to take? Quite often a diognosis is made on the absence of other clinical symptoms, but a bit more investigation would be required to say that and which shoe, heart bar, french bar, egg bar, or graduated bar, etc, each deal with separate pathology's all in the same region.

at what point do you consider "no shoe" A Guilding?

 

[dressagelove]

Best of luck, I hope you get there with her. Yep I sticking with the BF, have organised for a qualified trimmer to come out and meet me and the boy, hopefully she can help me out with his gammy legs! Going to go for it long term now and address the cause of the pain rather than patch it up with wedges.

Thanks all so much for the advice, I think this is the way to go

 

[cptrayes]

Wedges are ok if there is no other option,

Can you please explain when is there no other option? Is there not almost always an option of no shoes at all?

 

[cptrayes]

Best of luck, I hope you get there with her. Yep I sticking with the BF, have organised for a qualified trimmer to come out and meet me and the boy, hopefully she can help me out with his gammy legs! Going to go for it long term now and address the cause of the pain rather than patch it up with wedges.

Thanks all so much for the advice, I think this is the way to go

Brilliant. If we can help let us know. Do all the research you can on diet. I wrote a blog about my rehab with pictures on a day by day basis, giving the ups and downs, the good and the bad. If you want to read it PM me for the address.

 

[mossymops]

There's a horse on my yard with a similar diagnosis to yours. The owner has 4 months left on the insurance and has gone for MRIs, which showed floating bone, tissue damage and ligament damage. Classic long toe/collapsed heel confirmation, very weak digital cushions and frog, flat footed. He was given Tildren the same day.

The horse came back from the MRIs shoeless and was in dreadful pain. Farrier came out and fitted wedges 2 days later and the horse is bouncing round the field, looking 'cured'....

.... and of course, is a ticking time bomb!

Owner has listened to my account of why I took mine barefoot, has read the Rockley blog, is ordering Feet First, hasnt changed to the supplement I have recommended (Prohoof by Progressive Earth) and is going all the way with the vet advice and farrier. He feels he has to, just incase it helps him get a sound horse, and sees shoes off as the last resort.

It's oh so difficult to go against everything your vet and farrier are suggesting, after all, they are trying to help, and you have a pot of insurance money to spend... if it doesnt work, at least youve said youve tried it.... but the outcome (from my experience) and that of many others, is that when the money does run out, you still have a lame horse (sometimes worse than before in my case) and you then have the job of barefoot rehabilitation to start. It can often feel like going it alone, but in my case, it gave me my horse back.

Good luck OP!

 

[dressagelove]

There's a horse on my yard with a similar diagnosis to yours. The owner has 4 months left on the insurance and has gone for MRIs, which showed floating bone, tissue damage and ligament damage. Classic long toe/collapsed heel confirmation, very weak digital cushions and frog, flat footed. He was given Tildren the same day.

The horse came back from the MRIs shoeless and was in dreadful pain. Farrier came out and fitted wedges 2 days later and the horse is bouncing round the field, looking 'cured'....

.... and of course, is a ticking time bomb!

Owner has listened to my account of why I took mine barefoot, has read the Rockley blog, is ordering Feet First, hasnt changed to the supplement I have recommended (Prohoof by Progressive Earth) and is going all the way with the vet advice and farrier. He feels he has to, just incase it helps him get a sound horse, and sees shoes off as the last resort.

It's oh so difficult to go against everything your vet and farrier are suggesting, after all, they are trying to help, and you have a pot of insurance money to spend... if it doesnt work, at least youve said youve tried it.... but the outcome (from my experience) and that of many others, is that when the money does run out, you still have a lame horse (sometimes worse than before in my case) and you then have the job of barefoot rehabilitation to start. It can often feel like going it alone, but in my case, it gave me my horse back.

Good luck OP!

Thanks you for sharing mossymops, and I am honoured this was your first ever post!! hehe, I am very hopeful and optimistic, aside from going against vets and farriers, I still feel I am doing the right thing! fingers crossed

 

[amandap]

Best of luck, I hope you get there with her. Yep I sticking with the BF, have organised for a qualified trimmer to come out and meet me and the boy, hopefully she can help me out with his gammy legs! Going to go for it long term now and address the cause of the pain rather than patch it up with wedges.

Great. Good luck and it's so good to read such a sensible attitude ie. thinking long term.

Have a read of Pete Ramey's article on navicular too if you haven't already.

 

[Sam_J]

Slightly o/t, but as the wife of the elusive Paul Jackson, I would just like to say that although Paul can't always answer his phone if you send him a text he *will* ring you back. Or if you send an e-mail, I will send a response - usually the same day

 

[dressagelove]

Slightly o/t, but as the wife of the elusive Paul Jackson, I would just like to say that although Paul can't always answer his phone if you send him a text he *will* ring you back. Or if you send an e-mail, I will send a response - usually the same day

Yes, Ive got your email now Sam, thankyou for getting back to me so quickly sorry I got impatient, I was just so eager to speak to someone about him after being scared by my vet!

Thanks everyone for your support, thought you were all going to tell me not to be stupid and get some wedges on asap! Glad the general consensus it to go for the barefoot route...

 

[maggiesmum]

No, unfortunately we're not allowed to do that until about April time. As much as I prefer horses to be out, she seems to be improving if I limit her turnout time in the swamp....

Sorry I wasn't very clear, I meant out overnight and in during the day rather than the other way around, our yard restricts turnout over winter but were ok for me to work the opposite way to everyone else.

 

[A Guilding]

Can you please explain when is there no other option? Is there not almost always an option of no shoes at all?

When did I exclude taking shoes off? Graduation is an option but better performed by a skilled technician on the shoe. Most cases of Navicular that involve degeneration of the bone are progressive and irreversible. x-rays that are clear of significant bone change, so inflammatory conditions of the navicular bursae, impar ligament, or DDFT can be ameliorated. Poor shoeing or inappropriate rationale will aggravate these conditions. That was my initial concern with the Ops vet's direction.