Remedially shod back to barefoot?

[Melody Grey]

My horse has been remedially shod on vets advice since Feb as part of a front foot lameness/ SI treatment. The shoes are conventional shoes although set back with pads all round- they have improved footiness on stony ground immeasurable and horse is much sounder (was only 1/10 lame on hard surface at trot anyway).
At some point shortly our insurance will run out and at £180/ set, I need to consider my options.

He was Previously barefoot with hoof boots on the front- I’m considering a return to barefoot- has anyone done this successfully? Am I right to be considering it? I’m a big believer in barefoot anyway, but horse throwing a shoe today and farrier unable to get for a week is making me consider it sooner.

your thoughts and opinions please HHOers...virtual cake offered!!

 

[Melody Grey]

To add: will obviously consult vet before going for it!

 

[splashgirl45]

i think it depends on why he had remedial shoeing, if he is wearing pads was it a laminitis issue? if so you will need to address the feeding and management first especially if you want to go without shoes. if he was ok before i dont see any reason why you couldnt try again, you say he had boots on the fronts so doesnt sound like it was completely successful. i would think it would be worth a try while the ground is soft but no one on the forum can really advise..

 

[Mule]

If you have the same farrier when he was barefoot as you have now that he is shod, I would ask their opinion. They would have had the experience of seeing the horse with and without shoes.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What was the diagnosis?

I’ve done it in the last year - from barefoot to shoes back to unshod. Mare has had gel injections in front coffins and hocks, plus steroid into SI.

Going well now she’s out of shoes again, though it took her a little time to acclimatise.

 

[Melody Grey]

i think it depends on why he had remedial shoeing, if he is wearing pads was it a laminitis issue? if so you will need to address the feeding and management first especially if you want to go without shoes. if he was ok before i dont see any reason why you couldnt try again, you say he had boots on the fronts so doesnt sound like it was completely successful. i would think it would be worth a try while the ground is soft but no one on the forum can really advise..

He had an MRI which revealed a ligament strain (sorry can’t remember which) within the hoof which was causing the front foot lameness. He had SI medicated which resolved hindlimb ‘shuffling’ (vet is happy with resolution).
When he was barefoot before, he only had boots on the front but I am considering them all round this time. He was fine Barefoot for 5yrs with consistent workload before problems arose.
He has rotation in all 4 feet but no laminitis.

hope that addresses your points
ETA: barefoot friendly diet in place (and has been since I had him 5yrs ago)

 

[sbloom]

I think it's so hard to say, I am guessing it was the DDFT that was strained, related to the navicular bone? There are one or two other options in the foot I think. I would want to try and work out why that might have happened when the horse was barefoot, try to drill down, it might be down to the SI, or the feet might have deteriorated because of the SI. I'd want to know why there was rotation in the feet now.

I would consider going to a holistic practitioner (top level who can assess the whole picture, Tom Beech being an example) combined with a rehab centre so you're covering all the bases, and then consider how the feet fit into the overall picture, as you're trying to do right now. Barefoot might be great, but there's some brilliant approaches coming out for shoeing, see https://www.facebook.com/markjfarrier and https://www.facebook.com/theequinedocumentalist are the two I know of, there may be others. And if I had any thought that his hoofcare had contributed to the problem (I struggle to see how it can't have played some part) I would be considering my options regarding hoofcare professionals moving forwards.

I love the thoughts, I think from Einstein, that problems have to be solved from a higher level than the approach that caused them (or something to that effect!).

 

[Tiddlypom]

When were the most recent set of foot balance X rays taken?

Wondering how much change there has been/why there is rotation, which is beyond my experience. We (well, my vet strongly recommended it, so I agreed) have kept up with regular foot balance x rays to check on everything.

 

[splashgirl45]

i dont understand why there is rotation on all 4 feet and not laminitis. surely rotation is very serious and i assume you would need to use boots all of the time he is not on a soft bed...

 

[Melody Grey]

Thanks for all of your replies and thoughts guys- much appreciated. Sorry to be a bit late back to address them all.

Re: the pads- he has thin soles according to the x-rays and it was felt that they would give the best chance of supporting SI rehab as shock absorbers. Our tracks are particularly stony here- we tried front pads first and then back- both in combo seem to have worked well.
Re: laminitis- I did question the vet about why we have the rotation- he ruled out laminitis
- there’s no visible stretching of the laminae, he has also been tested for PSSM and EMS. I think it’s a chicken and egg situation between whether the back caused the sore feet or vice Versa.

 

[Melody Grey]

The most recent x-rays were taken in Feb before remedial shoeing started. I have requested a further set at some time soon so we can use them
To inform our decision of whether to keep shoeing/ try reverting to barefoot.

 

[Melody Grey]

I think it's so hard to say, I am guessing it was the DDFT that was strained, related to the navicular bone? There are one or two other options in the foot I think. I would want to try and work out why that might have happened when the horse was barefoot, try to drill down, it might be down to the SI, or the feet might have deteriorated because of the SI. I'd want to know why there was rotation in the feet now.

I would consider going to a holistic practitioner (top level who can assess the whole picture, Tom Beech being an example) combined with a rehab centre so you're covering all the bases, and then consider how the feet fit into the overall picture, as you're trying to do right now. Barefoot might be great, but there's some brilliant approaches coming out for shoeing, see https://www.facebook.com/markjfarrier and https://www.facebook.com/theequinedocumentalist are the two I know of, there may be others. And if I had any thought that his hoofcare had contributed to the problem (I struggle to see how it can't have played some part) I would be considering my options regarding hoofcare professionals moving forwards.

I love the thoughts, I think from Einstein, that problems have to be solved from a higher level than the approach that caused them (or something to that effect!).

Thanks- wise words!

unfortunately we’re coming to the end of our insurance money and time frame so, can’t enlist the help of another vet really at this stage, we’re very much working with what we’ve got.

 

[Melody Grey]

Horse in question was relatively self trimming for years with a good amount of roadwork and being Overseen by our farrier who was generally pleased with his foot balance And rarely needed to make adjustments. There came a point just before the SI issue became apparent where he started to grow some flare (Not masses, but more than normal) on the outer edge of one of his Hinds.
Vet considered his foot balance to be good, but I wonder whether more attentive trimming might give us enough help to go barefoot? A friend who has recently done a remedial to barefoot transition has recommended her podiatrist which I’m considering.

 

[ycbm]

Rotation without laminitis sounds a bit odd, can you clarify? Is the angle of the coffin bone rotated with respect to the front wall of the hoof, or only with respect to the ground? I could understand the latter without laminitis, it would mean the the heel is too high in relation to the toe. But if the bone is rotated away from the front wall of the hoof, then the laminae pretty much have to have released to allow that to happen, and it's difficult to understand how that happened without laminitis?
.

 

[Melody Grey]

Rotation without laminitis sounds a bit odd, can you clarify? Is the angle of the coffin bone rotated with respect to the front wall of the hoof, or only with respect to the ground? I could understand the latter without laminitis, it would mean the the heel is too high in relation to the toe. But if the bone is rotated away from the front wall of the hoof, then the laminae pretty much have to have released to allow that to happen, and it's difficult to understand how that happened without laminitis?
.

Thanks YCBM, you explain that really well- I’m thinking the latter from what you suggest above. I’m trying to get a call with my vet over the next few days to clarify (he’s unfortunately away due to a bereavement), but will gladly post what I learn! I don’t have the original x-rays to hand but will ask for them again against the new ones.
ETA: pedal bone is not rotated away from the front wall of the hoof in the MRI pics.

 

[Melody Grey]

@sbloom - here is the summary from the MRI scan:

Summary
• Desmitis of the medial collateral ligament of the DIP joint, LF > RF o Peri-ligamentous inflammation palmar to the above, LF
• Moderate desmitis of the lateral digital annular ligament and mild enthesiopathy at part of its insertion onto the palmar lateral cortex of P1, LF
• Mild tendonitis of the distal portion of the DDFT, RF
• Mild synovitis within the DIP joint, RF

 

[Tiddlypom]

A new set of foot balance x rays is a priority. It is rather surprising that the last set was taken 9 months ago with his history.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks YCBM, you explain that really well- I’m thinking the latter from what you suggest above. I’m trying to get a call with my vet over the next few days to clarify (he’s unfortunately away due to a bereavement), but will gladly post what I learn! I don’t have the original x-rays to hand but will ask for them again against the new ones.
ETA: pedal bone is not rotated away from the front wall of the hoof in the MRI pics.

I find it really odd, if the bone is still well attached to the front hoof wall, that anyone has called that rotation. If it was tilted the other way, pedal bone tip too high, which is relatively common, it's called negative angle. What you seem to have is an over-positive angle, which should be able to be corrected by a steady program of lowering the heel in relation to the toe.

 

[Melody Grey]

I find it really odd, if the bone is still well attached to the front hoof wall, that anyone has called that rotation. If it was tilted the other way, pedal bone tip too high, which is relatively common, it's called negative angle. What you seem to have is an over-positive angle, which should be able to be corrected by a steady program of lowering the heel in relation to the toe.

Thanks- will seek clarification, but encouraging that it may be correctable if it is as you describe

 

[ycbm]

Thanks- will seek clarification, but encouraging that it may be correctable if it is as you describe

I would be hopeful. If the horse had none of the internal inflammation found on your MRI, then a trimmer/farrier would expect to be able to drop the heel over the course of several trims (to avoid damaging anything by too fast a change) and correct the angle.

The big question with yours is if the internal injuries are causing, caused by, or unrelated to the angle.

I would be quietly hopeful that the angle was contributing to the inflammation and correcting that will help the rest.

 

[ester]

Is he boxy? I'm presuming not given the vets comments on hoof balance but that is what would sometimes generate what ycbm is describing. - I've seen it most noticeable in hi-lo horses though (so one tall hoof, one flat hoof)

 

[Melody Grey]

Is he boxy? I'm presuming not given the vets comments on hoof balance but that is what would sometimes generate what ycbm is describing. - I've seen it most noticeable in hi-lo horses though (so one tall hoof, one flat hoof)

Thanks Ester- to be honest no, I wouldn’t have said so. His foot conformation (and general conformation) are pretty good. Perfectly round, matching feet, plenty of heel, concavity in the sole, quality horn growth. The only thing I’d say is that his toes were a little longer Than a shod horse when he was barefoot. Vets/remedial farrier/ usual farrier/ physio were amazed when they saw the x rays!

he’s never grown a lot of hoof, hence using the hoof boots on the front previously. I wonder if the backs got sore gradually causing change in posture and associated SI problems?

we were grazing a very muddy hillside this time last year (now moved)- wondering whether this is all due to a strain injury in the mud?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Overly long toes can do a lot of damage, and unshod horse are as prone to that if trimmed incorrectly as shod horses are.

The SI injury could be resultant from the sore front feet - it is believed to have been thus in my own mare’s case.

 

[sbloom]

Forgive me but I'm not enough of an expert, without going through anatomy textbooks, to be able to help on the technical stuff. The rotation isn't mentioned in what you posted, I'm with ycbm that it's likely the hoof pastern axis that could be the issue, but not sure. Rotation in all four without lammi isn't something I've every heard of either.

DDFT is classic heel pain type of issue, that's the only one I'm properly familiar with. And so many injuried are RSI, Gillian Higgins says "the vast majority" that foot issues can so easily lead to these kinds of injuries, the "injury" is just the final straw that makes the underlying issue break.

Did I post facebook links to the people doing the HPA work? Progressive Equine Services and the Equine Documentalist, the latter will give a workup and second opinion, might be interesting.

So hard when funds are running out, Tom Beech isn't as expensive as vet work ups and their treatments, but is more expensive than a back person, still might be worth a second opinion from one of these I've mentioned if you can find the funds.