Removing large knee blocks

[Shizzle]

I think I have just had a revelation. I've been switching between a wh/vsd saddle and an Isabell Werth saddle on my cob, and although both have been fitted and deemed a good fit on him, I never felt like he was rounding over his back as much in the Isabell. Until I removed the huge knee blocks as an experiment, and he went so much better, rounding and lifting his back, and staying that way! Why is this? Could I be more stable without them, weirdly?!! Any saddle fitters shed some light?

 

[sbloom]

Large knee blocks and deep seats have become incredibly popular and there's a widespread belief that they will make the rider more secure and comfortable. The truth is somewhat different as you're finding out. The starting point for rider effectiveness - which includes making themselves easy to carry, and easy for the horse to move biomechanically efficiently under them - is the pelvis, and it must be able to easily get to neutral. Neutral is an upright position where the spine stacks on top effortlessly without fighting gravity, and is ideally a supported position in a saddle that fits ie you're not using your core to fight stability to keep the pelvis upright in that neutral position.

The femur and where it is able to lay is a huge part of the ability of the pelvis to sit in neutral - a high cantle and bucket seat force the soft tissue, the buttocks, into a certain position, which will affect the ability to get into neutral. If the rider, through acceleration or deceleration forces (physical forces are at the heart of everything but seldom understood) ends up slipping a little forwards or backwards, then the pelvis gets forced into anterior (usually showing an arched back) or posterior (collapsed spine) tilt. Going into a pelvis tilt makes it more likely the leg will run forwards, putting us into a chair seat. Hopefully you can see how a high cantle doesn't stop the dreaded chair seat.

So the makers added bigger and bigger blocks meaning that the leg would stay under the rider even when the body has been distorted through physical forces. Big moving warmbloods were seen as the cause, creating the need for these "uber saddles". And yet....a horse moving truly up through the thoracic sling able to come through from behind is easier to sit than so many horses whose backs are at least slightly dropped. Back to the blocks - the rider's leg is forced back under them causing the pelvis to stiffen and be limited in its ability to absorb upward movement, instead we see leaning back and forward-back movement of the pelvis. This pushes the horse's back down, even when we think we are simply moving in sympathy with the back.

Centaur Biomechanics research - https://www.facebook.com/centaurbio...CVXvUM9AqyzqHBQNqxkbcVyezc28MPDaPShwLUfrGnYVl
Maria Hallring (at the forefront of horse-saddle-rider interaction) - https://www.facebook.com/maria.hall...qAXaYoHGQzNkZLQJ31Dy15U8m3AgTYqJM1TTtmHZVVbWl

 

[Maxidoodle]

@sbloom, I couldn’t just like your post, as it was an absolutely great post, thank you for detailing it so clearly.

 

[Gloi]

I'm glad you said that. I ride in a saddle with a fairly flat seat and slight knee rolls and on the occasions I have ridden my friend's horses in a deep dressage saddle I feel like I can't ride as I am held in such a fixed position.

 

[sbloom]

@sbloom, I couldn’t just like your post, as it was an absolutely great post, thank you for detailing it so clearly.

I'm rather passionate about it, I've long fitted flatter seated saddles and seen what a stable fit on the horse (natives, cobs) can offer the rider, how much less room the deep seats and blog blocks offer, and now my training has brought me to a fuller understanding of how to optimise the rider to a much higher level. It all makes so much sense once you start with physical forces.

 

[Goldenstar]

IMO large Blocks are not helpful on dressage saddles it’s the riders core and balance that keeps them in position .
Peoples bodies vary and you need to be able to get your self into balance to do that the reality that saddles need to allow for people sitting in slightly different places.
To ride well you need to be able to sit with a loose thigh and knee very loose at times.
You need to able to position your lower leg in different places big blocks make this very difficult in lots of places .
You do see pictures of riders who appear completely braced against the blocks while a picture is a moment in time this less than ideal .
When you sit on a saddle that suits you it’s a lightbulb moment I did this first with a jumping saddle then I found dressage saddles that suited me better But finally I sound the perfect one for me,that’s one of the first fairfax monoflaps the blocks on this one are removable I ride with no blocks the lady that rides for but the blocks on for one horse ( I have two of these saddles )but she’s taller than me and that’s key your height and length of your thigh is key in this .
The ideal Jessica’s had sensible fronts that was easy for lots of people I dont know about new ones now .

 

[Cragrat]

Thank you, Sbloom! I have read Jean Luc Conille saying much the same thing( and promoting his flat saddles) but you are more clear and succinct

Doesn't Ingrid Klimke ride dressage in an older, flatter Stubben with small blocks? Possibly her dads saddle, though I may have imagined that?

 

[sbloom]

Leg length etc relates to block placement, but so many flap designs and block placement issues are because the knee goes too forwards, that the saddle does not suit the rider's hips/pelvis and the thigh cannot drop. Mary Wanless would argue that the thigh should have at least moderate pressure underneath it, that the knee should not pinch of course, but all this depends on how the femur drops from the hip, and how the support is from hip to knee. A lack of support under the thigh, for instance a monoflap where inappropriate, can lead to pinching with the knee. Without firm thigh contact the horse has less to push up into.

Of course we're talking able bodied riders, and the definition of that is not set in stone. Para riders will need a completely different set up, but I've yet to find, say, someone with fibro who can't get great support from the perfect shaped seat and appropriately specced flap with smaller knee blocks. if we can set it up right then the muscles are way less fatigued as they are not doing the wrong job, compensating for a lack of stability.

The larger the block the more chance there is of external rotation of the hip if the leg does come forwards, and external rotation pushes our weight back onto our seat bones, removing that thigh contact and any chance of spreading weight forwards and down where the horse is best placed to carry it.

Thank you, Sbloom! I have read Jean Luc Conille saying much the same thing( and promoting his flat saddles) but you are more clear and succinct

Doesn't Ingrid Klimke ride dressage in an older, flatter Stubben with small blocks? Possibly her dads saddle, though I may have imagined that?

I think it's quite easy to be more succinct than JLC

And yes, Ingrid does ride in an "old fashioned" saddle though I suspect it's a Passier GG. There is a "small block" school of thought from Stubben, especially their vocal US fitters who are very active on social media, which I agree with. They also promote a slightly more forward balance point that really is a good thing, all other things being equal. However they also argue that the knee should be at a certain spot relative to the girth straps, and that the calf should be vertical with the foot slightly in front. I disagree and in my opinion so do the laws of physics we as we know them - we should be over our feet, it matters less where the knee is (rider conformation affects where the knee is, and then choice of girth straps....) and our calves will not be vertical if we're over our feet.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Mine are removable and were massive so I swopped them for the smaller ones meant for a GP and i much prefer it.

 

[catkin]

Also the big blocks can encourage an excessively long rider leg which is not always particularly comfortable (for either partner) or effective.
A little more knee space in the front of the saddle and stirrups up a hole can make such a difference.

 

[sbloom]

Also the big blocks can encourage an excessively long rider leg which is not always particularly comfortable (for either partner) or effective.
A little more knee space in the front of the saddle and stirrups up a hole can make such a difference.

That's more to do with block area-type-size (rather than projection) and placement, but it points to another issue with big blocks - they take up more space, on average, so yes, often the leg has less room overall. How many GP riders do we see with a long leg but sitting behind the vertical in their upper bodies and the leg well ahead of them. We end up with massive blocks, a very rearward balance point (ie we sit further back, where the horse struggles to carry us) as we don't have space to sit forwards, and the high cantle...it's a vicious circle!

 

[Cragrat]

[

I think it's quite easy to be more succinct than JLC

And yes, Ingrid does ride in an "old fashioned" saddle though I suspect it's a Passier GG. There is a "small block" school of thought from Stubben, especially their vocal US fitters who are very active on social media, which I agree with. They also promote a slightly more forward balance point that really is a good thing, all other things being equal. However they also argue that the knee should be at a certain spot relative to the girth straps, and that the calf should be vertical with the foot slightly in front. I disagree and in my opinion so do the laws of physics we as we know them - we should be over our feet, it matters less where the knee is (rider conformation affects where the knee is, and then choice of girth straps....) and our calves will not be vertical if we're over our feet.
[/QUOTE]

I meant Passier <doh>
Interesting about Stubbens though. But how on earth can the calf be vertical, AND the foot be in front, without you landing back in chair seat, however slight???

 

[sbloom]

I meant Passier <doh>
Interesting about Stubbens though. But how on earth can the calf be vertical, AND the foot be in front, without you landing back in chair seat, however slight???

The Stubben fitters argue that it's not a chair seat, I'm not sure how they decide where gravity becomes an issue. Sure, in a jump saddle the foot may be slightly (not half as much as in most jump saddles though!) ahead as we spend so much time in two point, but never in a dressage seat.

 

[Shizzle]

Large knee blocks and deep seats have become incredibly popular and there's a widespread belief that they will make the rider more secure and comfortable. The truth is somewhat different as you're finding out. The starting point for rider effectiveness - which includes making themselves easy to carry, and easy for the horse to move biomechanically efficiently under them - is the pelvis, and it must be able to easily get to neutral. Neutral is an upright position where the spine stacks on top effortlessly without fighting gravity, and is ideally a supported position in a saddle that fits ie you're not using your core to fight stability to keep the pelvis upright in that neutral position.

The femur and where it is able to lay is a huge part of the ability of the pelvis to sit in neutral - a high cantle and bucket seat force the soft tissue, the buttocks, into a certain position, which will affect the ability to get into neutral. If the rider, through acceleration or deceleration forces (physical forces are at the heart of everything but seldom understood) ends up slipping a little forwards or backwards, then the pelvis gets forced into anterior (usually showing an arched back) or posterior (collapsed spine) tilt. Going into a pelvis tilt makes it more likely the leg will run forwards, putting us into a chair seat. Hopefully you can see how a high cantle doesn't stop the dreaded chair seat.

So the makers added bigger and bigger blocks meaning that the leg would stay under the rider even when the body has been distorted through physical forces. Big moving warmbloods were seen as the cause, creating the need for these "uber saddles". And yet....a horse moving truly up through the thoracic sling able to come through from behind is easier to sit than so many horses whose backs are at least slightly dropped. Back to the blocks - the rider's leg is forced back under them causing the pelvis to stiffen and be limited in its ability to absorb upward movement, instead we see leaning back and forward-back movement of the pelvis. This pushes the horse's back down, even when we think we are simply moving in sympathy with the back.

Centaur Biomechanics research - https://www.facebook.com/centaurbio...CVXvUM9AqyzqHBQNqxkbcVyezc28MPDaPShwLUfrGnYVl
Maria Hallring (at the forefront of horse-saddle-rider interaction) - https://www.facebook.com/maria.hall...qAXaYoHGQzNkZLQJ31Dy15U8m3AgTYqJM1TTtmHZVVbWl

Thank you so much for this detailed response - it makes so much sense!

 

[Red-1]

My jump saddles for some years have been the type with the blocks above the thigh rather than anywhere near the knee.

In normal circumstances, I don't use or feel the block at all. The block is there, above the thigh, for in case you start to rotate. The saddles will have a soft blister where the knee goes, for comfort, but security, in normal times, is because of the balance of the saddle.

My first one like this (and still my favourite) was a Butet mono XC. The first time I rode in it, I felt like I couldn't even do a rising trot as, with no knee roll and a flat seat, I was not held in place. Once I had adjusted and found my balance, I was away and can't think I ever fell off in it, other than once when the horse turned over (sideways, hidden track under autumn leaves and cantering and turning).

People said the type of saddle wasn't as nice for the horse (small panels, minimalist saddle) but I went by what the horse said and a succession of them liked it, probably because I was in balance.

 

[sbloom]

A saddle optimised for the rider, as implied by @Red-1 , PLUS a tree shape that gives the horse room to lift and the sky's the limit. The French trees are pretty narrow in the rails, directly under the rider, so not something I'd ever want to use, but yes, if the rider is sat really well then it can make a huge difference.

 

[Bernster]

Fantastic info thx sbloom. I’m short and find the blocks often interfere. I used to ride in a nick dolman saddle which had Velcro knee blocks so I used a small short one and really liked it no longer fits the horse though which is a shame. Wish there were more options - sbloom, are there saddle makes you rate who do a better job with rider biomechanics?

 

[sbloom]

Fantastic info thx sbloom. I’m short and find the blocks often interfere. I used to ride in a nick dolman saddle which had Velcro knee blocks so I used a small short one and really liked it no longer fits the horse though which is a shame. Wish there were more options - sbloom, are there saddle makes you rate who do a better job with rider biomechanics?

Tricky question to answer as I'm not allowed to advertise . I would recommend velcro blocks where possible (not possible on monoflaps, and some people WILL do better in them, but far from everyone), and if you can find someone (some bodyworkers, off-horse specialists and ridden biomechanics coaches would be among them) trained by Maria Hallring or possibly Caroline Lindsay in assessing the rider off horse, getting a pelvic shape imprint.

 

[Ouch05]

WOW this is the issue I was having with all the dressage saddles I have had over the years. I am narrow through the hips and they were forcing my position and I felt I was constantly 'fighting' to keep me legs where my RI said they needed to be. Then the moment happened I did put a post up about it. After fighting with my GP and Dressage she made me sit in another saddle. She did not tell me it was a jump and it looked like a GP. The bars where further forward and it just fitted me. I am no longer fighting it and he works better. She has gone away and I am having a saddle made for me the same jump tree, with longer panels to look like a dressage an knee blocks that work for my body (small and removable).

Great information @sbloom and backs up what my saddle fitter was saying about the riders body is just as important as the saddle fitting the horse.

 

[sbloom]

Longer flaps ☺, the panels are the bit with flocking, air or foam, though a lot of people make the same mistake. Just make sure those bars still allow you to sit over your feet, the longer your femur compared to calf, and the smaller your feet, the more likely you are to need a set back bar.

You can get spacers to set on a traditional (ie not a hook) bar to set the stirrups back up to about 1cm.

We're all so used to being behind our feet that it feels comfy and "right", and in fact being over our feet, especially in a forward balance saddle, can feel odd or even wrong to begin with. I had one customer took 4 months to get used to hers and now you couldn't prise it out of her cold, dead hands!

 

[Cragrat]

sbloom - please can I ask what you think of the Christ Lammefelle Premium Plus, wrt the blocks?

Premium PLUS Bareback Riding Pad

Premium PLUS Bareback pad (Fellsattel) manufactured by Christ Lammfelle. Sheepskin saddle used with a dressage girth. Ultimate comfort for horse and rider. Tests carried out by independent expert riders and riding therapists have confirmed the positive qualities and the effect of this pad on the...

www.horsedream.co.uk

 

[sbloom]

sbloom - please can I ask what you think of the Christ Lammefelle Premium Plus, wrt the blocks?

Premium PLUS Bareback Riding Pad

Premium PLUS Bareback pad (Fellsattel) manufactured by Christ Lammfelle. Sheepskin saddle used with a dressage girth. Ultimate comfort for horse and rider. Tests carried out by independent expert riders and riding therapists have confirmed the positive qualities and the effect of this pad on the...

www.horsedream.co.uk

I've not seen one ridden in in the flesh, but almost all bareback pads make the horse feel wider and put the rider in a chair seat. Now that may not be an issue in itself if the horse feels more able to move under it than in their saddle, but it's not ideal. So, great for short term, and for having in the tack room for when your saddle needs adjusting, but not a long term option IMO.

The thigh blocks are probably needed to an extent as the seat really won't help the rider in any way, and because they're not on a rigid structure there will be no leverage going through to the horse. Just be aware to sit in a neutral pelvis with spine stacked, legs back as much as you can, and don't use them to push against, just for emergencies.