Renters not paying for land/services, advice please.

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HKTrooper

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Hello everyone,

Thank you for looking at my post.

I have searched the forum for the answers to my questions but as someone who has used this vBullitin software before unless you ask the right question the search results flood you with many related items and after 2 hours of looking I thought a better use of my time would be to ask my questions.

I have 25 acres on the Lancs/North Yorks boundary and have been advertising my fields for rent for about 18 months now. I have two lovely people who have been stars in showing me the ropes to ensure I provided a safe environment for their horses and things have been great up until I took on 2 new horses 2 months ago.

As the title suggests I have 2 ladies who brought 2 horses to my smallholding several months ago who are in debt to me for about 6 weeks of the 2 months they have been here.
They give the impression that they are from 'Traveller' stock.

I have had every excuse under the sun from stranded 100 miles away to major surgery and everything in between.

I had received some money initially but its got ridiculous and now to a stage where they have not been up for two weeks and I am watering and feeding them. Admittedly the food is theirs but its my fields and water and its beginning to irk somewhat.

I have sent numerous texts clearly identifying what they owe and why as im charging for the feeding/watering whilst they dont do it themselves. I recognise that the snow has been an issue but I feel that they are using it as another excuse. I have given them several notices to quit and they continue to come up with reasons not to come.

I have now moved the horses so that they can graze and water themselves on a field that has grass and running water and padlocked the field.

It looks like they have done this before.

I understand I have a duty of care and the horses will not suffer whilst on my property.

I have no contract.
I do not know where they live except a general area.
I am owed about £300 so far and thats increasing daily.

Therefore, my questions are:

What are the legal opportunities afforded to me for selling the horses to recover my costs.
What time frame do I have to wait before I can do that if its possible.

I will be notifying the business that recommended my advert about the character of these people so that others not so determined to get a resolution will not be stung.

Thats about it I think, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am not 'horsey' but I am determined that the animals do not suffer and I get my money one way or another. Its taken me too long and its been hard slog to afford this place and no 'pretend' traveller's are going to take liberties.

Thank you.

M
 
I can't help but feel you have been very naive in not getting any true details from these people ie.no contract, or address even and as such you cannot presume they gave you their correct names even.

You have learned a hard lesson re traveller types / horse types and I think you've been had.

You are to be commended though in ensuring the horses are well cared for as its not their fault.

I would get some advice legally but even sending letters recorded or otherwise is impossible as you don't have an address. Whats to stop these people saying you allowed their horses there rent free as you have no contract. Verbal contracts, unless witnesses were there, are IMV a waste of time.

Get some advice and see if these people turn up once the weather is better.
 
The fact that you have no contract with them will make things very difficult to prove either way.

I would suggest that you will have to cut your losses and get them to move their horses from your land as soon as possible.

Next time get a contract and ensure you know the true identity of the people you are dealing with. i.e ask to see their passport, driving licence and rates bill and copy them for future reference.

If you need help then there is a company called Sherlocks who are experienced in dealing with tracing people and also dealing with people that dump their horses on other peoples land! www.sherlock.uk.net Tel: 0845 890 9213 CM77 8GY
 
I now have my own place but I did rent for years and also once ran a small livery yard so can see the situation, I think, from all sides. if I ever rent out ground and / or a stabling again I will insist on a proper written contract and be paid by direct debit. I will also insist on a large upfront deposit, say 3 months rent. Many years ago I rented a field from a farmer and because he had been let down so many times by horsey people he made me pay 1 year in advance up front. this i did and I remained there for many years always paying 1 year in advance. Hope this helps.
 
I think you can probably use the small claims court once you can establish a proper address.
I rent my grazing and stables from a private land lady and paid a month in advance, havea written contract and had to provide references from my old livery yard to say I was a "good payer". I now know my landlady asked around and checked I worked where I said I did and lived where I said I did. I was never offended by any of this - she is a great landlady and I had nothing to hide. In the future, I would do some serious checking before taking anyone on.
How lucky they are that you are caring for their horses. You are obviously just too nice:) There are good people out there who would be grateful to rent from someone like you.
 
I hope it gets resolved - some good advice above. I too rent land and had to sign a contract - it was drawn up and posted to me, so address provided had to be right! I'm guessing a farmer's union or similar could help with contract wording for future people.
 
Thank you all for the advice.

I have been naive which is annoying as I dont class myself as such. Unfortunately the lure of two horses seemed to overide 20 years of common sense in the business world ;-(.

No one has mentioned if they have had any experience of selling horses to recoup losses, i know that some have based on info from an article in the H&H some time ago. I am trying to locate the article, one of my renters has mentioned it to me and she is trying to get it as well.

Can someone point me to a contract please?

Many thanks.

M
 
HKTrooper said:
Thank you all for the advice.

I have been naive which is annoying as I dont class myself as such. Unfortunately the lure of two horses seemed to overide 20 years of common sense in the business world ;-(.

No one has mentioned if they have had any experience of selling horses to recoup losses, i know that some have based on info from an article in the H&H some time ago. I am trying to locate the article, one of my renters has mentioned it to me and she is trying to get it as well.

Can someone point me to a contract please?

Many thanks.

M
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I think to be able to do this you have to have a contract with the option of using the sale of the horses to recoup any monies owed, the fact you don't have a contract could just make the horses stolen if you were to sell them, and you could end up in court. Personally, I would text them telling them the horses will be tied to the gate on a certain date and time and that they should come and collect them prior to this. You may have to put the money down as a loss just to get rid of these, but OH is an ex YO and says that, galling as it is, sometimes it is worth doing this just to get rid of the rubbish, so as to speak.
 
I rent a field been there from 76 till 87 and now 2005 till now and unfortunatly DO NOT HAVE A CONTRACT. But ive known the man and his prents for years.
I dont believe you can sell someon elses horses and that would be classed a theft.
 
There is usually a clause in a contract saying that a horse (car/asset) can be sold if rent (garaging/storage) is not paid. Doing so without could be very tricky. If the horses have been 'abandoned' (left with you, owners not coming back, feet not attended to and so forth) you might get some advice from a welfare organisation, e.g. the BHS/RSPCA. In any case Citizen's Advice might be a good place to start. Good luck!
 
As there is no contract I would have thought the horse owners could complain to the Police if you try to sell the the horses and class it as theft. Also there is the Passport issue. You cant sell the horse without its passport.
 
If I were you I'd join the British Horse Society pronto and then ring their legal helpline!

I think if the 'boot were on a different foot' and these horses had been dumped on your land by unknowns, you have to put a sign on your gate, saying that if the horses aren't removed in 'x' number of days you will dispose of them/sell them to recoup funds.

You definately need to speak to a solicitor about this first though.

What about the other 2 ladies who rent land off you? Do they know any more details of these new people?
 
I remember way back when a was still at school that this happened to a friend of mine's parents- they rented 4 acres of their land to two friends (Hertfordshire area) and after 3 months they just stopped paying for the field. The owner of the land sent a registered letter to the ladies it contained 2 things- a contract written by the solicitor and a latter that stated if they wished to remain on the land that they would need to read the contract and sign it and then abide by the rules, if they were not accepting of the contract (i.e the contract had not been returned within 14 days) then they would have a remaining 28 days to remove their horses from the land (I remember my friend stating that this was considered reasonable notice) If they had not removed the horses- the horses would thereby be removed... I can't remember what the letter said but I vaguely remember her saying that the letter mentioned something about abandoment? its 12 years ago now, but I do remember the letter did the trick as within the month the horses were gone- although friends mum never got a penny off them...
 
UPDATE.

Dear All.

Just thought I would give you an update as the situation is now sorted.

As I mentioned in my original post I had asked the police for advice and they of course were sympathetic but told me that it was a civil matter. The two lady owners turned up the weekend I had said the horses were being moved and quickly turned aggressive which made me laugh so hard I almost fell over.
I'm a six foot ex paratrooper and they were both 5' overweight 50 some-things, it was so funny it should have been taped...i digress.

They left without paying threatening they were going to the police and sure enough half an hour later I received a call from a police woman in my nearest town.

After explaining the problem she said she would try to help and she told the women that they could collect the horses the following Saturday but could only collect if I was paid in full and in cash. She would also attend to ensure there was no breach of the peace if they wanted as I had clearly stated that the horses would leave over my dead body or I would give them away.

They suddenly started to back off as it seems as they had expected the police to come up in riot gear to help them remove the horses but had not bargained that the police officer they were talking to was a horse owner herself.....I had to laugh again lol!

They appeared a week last Saturday with a horse box, paid me and left :-)

The police were excellent and followed up last week with a visit to ensure everything had worked out.

I would like to thank everyone who gave advice privately and publicly, it was all useful and coloured how I dealt with the situation and how I now deal with new grazers. I have a grazing licence that is tailored from a number of documents proffered on here and checked by my lawyer.

There are very few happy endings these days but here's one, thanks again.

Martyn
 
Excellent:D (even from an overweight 50 something:cool:) Glad it worked out and you have new tennants. A good landlord is a bit of a "find" in my books so you won't have any trouble keeping your tennants.
 
Excellent result !. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, we had a similar situation some years ago just takeing our tenant on face value. It went wrong pretty quickly with bounced rental cheques and him not feeding the ponies in the winter. Eventually he turned up when we were at work and removed them. We later found that he had been doing a similar thing all around our area.

We did have the last laught though as I came across the bounced cheques a couple of months later. As it was the end of the month I banked them again and they cleared, yay, a small victory but very satisfying.
 
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