Requirement for livery yards to have someone living onsite

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Mr_Ed

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Not strictly news (yet!), so I hope you don't mind me posting here - I just didn't want it to disappear too quickly as it would be great if as many people as possible could take part in the poll.

Should livery yards (or others who have custody of horses for financial gain) have someone competent living on site?

Does it really make a difference in terms fire safety, security as well as horse health supervision?

Should it and could it become a requirement?

Apart from answering the poll question below it would be helpful to get views from both perspectives and particularly any reasons why.
 
Tthere should be some guidlines or requirements....hopefully not going to get shot down in flames lol
All establishments where children are about YO or YM CRB check
Health and saftey training?
First aid cert?
Do you think there will ever be more rights for horse owners on livery yards or will it just be another myth.....
 
I have answered yes and also think it should be made a requirement by law also. Mainly for the reasons you have already listed above. For instance I have yet to visit a dog boarding kennels without an owner or competent person living in the house next to the kennels so why should horses be any different. In fact I think that it is in everyone's interest, horses and people to have someone on site 24/7.
 
Wouldn't keep my horse on a yard without other people being about.It's not just for the safety of my horse it is my safety to. I think if that you are running a business you should be licensed. First aid would be a plus however I don't think it is a legal requirement to have a trained first aider at any place of work but is strongly recommended by the H&S.
CRB check good idea however I would think it would cost so much money it wouldn't be done.
As for more rights for horse owners that depends on what you agreed to when you moved your horse onto that particular yard. If you don't have a contract stating what you are paying for and what they are supplying you prob don't have many rights.....
 
Voted YES but its very hard to get planning permission to add accommodation to a site as the planners do not consider it a necessity- many people have spent ££££ arguing/appealling decisions . If this is an argument to try to gain PP then you are far better off getting some livestock, gaining permission then adding horses later.
 
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Tthere should be some guidlines or requirements....hopefully not going to get shot down in flames lol
All establishments where children are about YO or YM CRB check
Health and saftey training?
First aid cert?

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who is going to pay for all that training and checks, if kids at yards were propley looked after by their parents instead of beeing droppedoff, it wouldn't be an issue!
 
As a YO I certainly prefer my current yard where we live on site. At my previous yard I lived about a mile away, and I hated it for lots of reasons (although my clients didn't seem to mind). We couldn't get PP for a house there, and it was certainly a factor when we decided to move.

For those people who think it should be mandatory for YO's to live on site I have a few questions
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Does this mean I am never allowed to go out and leave the yard unattended? No trip to the supermarket, no day out at a show or hunting, no school run? There are certainly times when we are not here for a few hours, but the horses are all properly looked after, and the fact is that when I am fast asleep in bed (less than 50 yards from the stables) I may well not hear if a horse is in difficulty, or be able to see all the horses in all the fields.

Equally, if I hear somebody burgling my tack room in the middle of the night, I may dial 999 but I sure ain't going out there to challenge them.
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I do however agree that livery yards should be licensed and inspected, run by competent people and covered by appropriate insurance.
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For those people who think it should be mandatory for YO's to live on site I have a few questions
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Does this mean I am never allowed to go out and leave the yard unattended? No trip to the supermarket, no day out at a show or hunting, no school run? There are certainly times when we are not here for a few hours, but the horses are all properly looked after, and the fact is that when I am fast asleep in bed (less than 50 yards from the stables) I may well not hear if a horse is in difficulty, or be able to see all the horses in all the fields.

Equally, if I hear somebody burgling my tack room in the middle of the night, I may dial 999 but I sure ain't going out there to challenge them.
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I do however agree that livery yards should be licensed and inspected, run by competent people and covered by appropriate insurance.
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Hear hear!!
 
I personally would never keep my horse at a yard that did not have someone responsible on the site 90% of the time or preferably 100% but I'm lucky that I can afford to. Not everyone can and I would hate this expensive hobby to become even less available to genuine horse lovers with less financial means - so I voted no.

Surely everyone makes (and should continue to be able to make) decisions based on the level of care they want and can afford. As long as everyone gets what they've signed up and are paying for I don't see what the problem is. More time should be spent looking at real issues like the ponies kept on a scrap yards rather than diverting resources to issues which would not make a great deal of difference to horse welfare.
 
As the author of this post I thought it might be useful to add my thoughts. I've kept horses at different livery yards for a number of years. All of the livery yards have had the proprietors either living directly on site or the houses have had view of the yards. Very often these might just be a few hundred yards away. One was probably about quarter of a mile but had direct line of sight to the yard.

So really, I have never kept horses at a yard which hasn't had some sort of on-site presence. Nor would I want to. This is my heart speaking and the welfare of my horse comes first. Many yards offer a very good service, but I think it's rare that anyone keeping a horse at livery is always 100% satisfied. There are so many horse owners who would like to keep their horses at home but simply don't have the money to do so.

I think we have to appreciate that there are very many different size and type livery yards out there. I have really limited the scope of my question to yards which are being run as businesses with "recreational" riders, which I suspect form the majority. But the size and the reason for those businesses can also widely vary. I know of one very small livery yard where the proprietor, faced with increasing livery bills decided to rent a yard primarily for her own horses, but then to pay the rent and make a little money rented out the other boxes, offering a livery service. Then we get larger yards with say 30 or 40 horses were perhaps the business reason is quite different. Finally, we get involved with different sectors of the industry such as racing, where one racehorse could equal the price of a property. Therefore, very different circumstances with or without very different issues.

But if I think of the question with my head rather than my heart and analyse the issues what do I come up with?

There are very few yards that truly offer 24/365 on-site presence. Certainly in the "domestic" horse livery yard. I think for most of us this is where the heart of the question lies. For example, if we were to reflect on the racing yard the value of the horses and the cost of keeping them is almost certainly going to lead to the 24/365 situation.

Let's look at the risks of keeping horses at livery. I am principally focusing on their welfare. I'd suggest the risks fall into the following main areas, but do let me know if I've missed any.

Risk of attack (by other animals or, very sadly by humans); risk of theft; risk of fire; risk of arson attack; risk of injury; risk of escape.

With many livery yards, there is often an on-site presence during daylight hours simply because of the amount of work to be done.

I think what we have to think about is overnight; does an on-site presence reduce the risks?

If the onsite proprietor has a couple of savvy dogs then they might get warning of some of these things happening. But if horses turned out, are they going to be in any better position to know about a horse attack? If they are fast asleep will they know about a fire happening? Although, if one does happen obviously an on-site presence is going to be so much more useful - but remember a horse can be killed in a stable fire in minutes. Are they necessarily going to know about any horses escaping?

They have a higher chance, but it's not guaranteed.

In an ideal world, every yard would have on-site supervision 24 hours a day. But we don't live in an ideal world, times are hard, and in some parts of the country simply trying to find a yard to get horses into is becoming more difficult.

I think because of the wide variety of types of livery yards it would be very difficult to legislate. Given the situation of where we are, I think that perhaps the best way forward would be to make sure that properly qualified competent people run yards and the risks to the welfare of horses is tackled up front through proper management. By that I mean minimising the likelihood of all the risks mentioned above. For example, risks of fire and arson can be substantially reduced through proper preventative measures (such as having the electrics checked regularly). One of the risks to welfare that I haven't mentioned above when proprietor doesn't live on site is that of actually being able to get to the horses in bad weather. Of course, it depends on entirely where you live and the geographical nature of the countryside around you. What would happen to the horses in heavy snow if the roads became difficult to drive on?

But again, if these things are thought about in advance, most things can actually be worked out.

Undeniably, the best solution is to have the proprietor living on site. But that isn't always going to happen and even where they do, as a previous poster pointed out, there may be times that they aren't there.

I'd suggest the answer is "no", but in saying that I'd like to see competent people running livery yards where the risks that threaten the welfare of horses are well managed. Over to you!
 
I've said yes but even YOs are entitled to a life away from the yard so 24/7 supervision is not easy.

I do feel more comfortable knowing someone lives on site and that's probably because that's what I've always had.
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I probably should have added that if you're a human with any type of bad intent which yard are you going to choose? The one with a site presence or the one with no-one around?
 
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In an ideal world then yes livery yards should have 24 hour supervision. In the real world it often doesnt happen, not by choice but often by planning restrictions!

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If it became a legal requirement to have someone living on site, many livery yards currently without accommodation would stand a much better chance of getting it! (And many livery yard owners would welcome the opportunity - and increased value of the property WITH accommodation!)

Of course it would also mean that local authorities may well be LESS likely to give permission for new stable yards - or conversions - because they would then be expected to give planning for accommodation as part of the project. And some people would decide to set up a livery yard to enhance their chances of getting PP - build a house and a few stables - and perhaps then not run a livery yard. (Same as - for years - people have used 'farming' to get PP.)
 
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I have answered yes and also think it should be made a requirement by law also. Mainly for the reasons you have already listed above. For instance I have yet to visit a dog boarding kennels without an owner or competent person living in the house next to the kennels so why should horses be any different. In fact I think that it is in everyone's interest, horses and people to have someone on site 24/7.

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Unless the laws have changed, there has to be someone living on site before a boarding kennel licence is issued.
Regarding livery, I am lucky enough to have my horses at home, but if they were at a yard I would definitely choose one with someone knowledgeable living on site.
One thing I have often wondered - when I was young, my pony was kept at a farm. There was grazing and use of a stable for 4 of us. Farmer had no horse knowledge, but would contact us if they appeared obviously ill/injured, and I referred to it as "the farm". Nowadays people seem to refer to this sort of set up as a livery yard, am I the only old fashioned person who thinks you have to have a lot more facilities before something is a livery yard.
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I didn't realise that about dog kennels to be honest as it is not an area I have looked into really. I just know that whenever I have used a kennels or cattery in the past someone has lived there. One in fact was a livery yard also.
My horses have always been kept on a yard where the owner has lived adjacent to the yard or directly on the grounds. It has certainly made me sleep easier at night. Although at one yard ( nothing against the people btw) even though they lived right next door and had security lighting someone still managed to get onto the yard and let my cob out of his stable in the early hours of one morning. Thankful he had headed towards the field and not to the main gate which was locked but in which there was a gap right next too at the time as work was being done. As the road was poorly lit, I am very lucky that my horse had 'sense' to go what was the right way. I am also lucky that some of the owners went to the yard very, very early in the morning to turn their horses out and my horse wandered down to one of their stables to say hello.
After examining the horse and the stable door and outside I deduced that he must have been let out because there was no sign of scrambling over the door. Not a mark on him and it was impossible for him to have jumped over due to the size of the stable and also there being a smallish gap over the door. Certainly not one that was big enough for a cob of his size to fit through easily.
That was one of the reasons that I left that yard. Like I said nothing against the owners at all as they are lovely people. But I didn't know why he was let out that night. Were they after him and he frightened them or ran in the direction of the house? Or were they looking for tack etc? I have no idea. It may have just been a prank. A stupid one that could have cost the life of my beloved horse. I had no idea whether these people would return and for nights afterwards it kept me awake in bed.
So in this instance it didn't necessarily pay to have an owner on site, or did it? The horse must have gone towards the fields as thankfully he hadn't got onto the road. To get to the fields you went past the house. There were security lights on the yard and my horse was in the first stable as you enter. Either the lights or the sight of the house and realising they would have to go past the house twice to get the horse off the yard could have put these people off.
I will never know for sure. But I am grateful that their house and lights were there because it may have saved my horse from being stolen ( if that was their intention) and also saved the others on the yard too.
 
I think this is a very good topic. We have built a 40 box yard recently for both our own horses & 25 livery horses. Unfortunately due to the credit crunch we have not been able to sell our own property (which is also now used as a small livery yard) I would never allow horses at either yard not to have as near as damn it 24/7 supervision. Particularly overnight. My son has a static at the new yard & when he is away at a show my OH or a horsey friend stays overnight. Last week it was my son's 21st Party & as always I had a very experienced person stay overnight at both properties. We also have a very good PPD for conducting late night checks. Just a couple of weeks ago the dog heard noises from the stables after midnight. On going outside my son found the BIGGEST horse on the yard cast (18hh) he knew the risk of injury to himself especially being on his own & phoned me ( I live 40 minutes away) I alerted a friend near to the yard who kindly drove to yard to make sure son hadnt got injured. He got the horse up due to the usual lunge line method & towed it away from the wall with a quad bike. (Good quick thinking) When we told the owner, we didnt even get a Thank you. At Xmas my son came home for 3hrs to eat with us whilst a member of staff stayed on yard. One was not allowed to leave till the other returned.
I find horse owners want the greatest duty of care provided for their horse, unfortunately they are not prepared to pay a proper rate for this care. We have full insurance. Massive NNDR bill. first aider & advanced paramendic qualification on site most of the time. & cover from a very loud fire alarm.
We have 14 x 14 internal looseboxes all bright & airy, 60m x 30m Indoor & 60m x 50m outdoor all liveries get free unlimited use including use of full course of jumps. Individual tackrooms & Individual P&R paddocks. Yet I am told £30 pw is expensive.
I do not see any other industry that provides so much for so little return.
 
There is a certain self-proclaimed "centre of excellence" equine unit at a university which did not have anyone in residence at its old satellite yard and it does not have anyone in residence on its campus yard.
In fact it tells all liveries to be off the yard by 5pm so that the staff can go home. Neither does it have staff on the yard at the weekends.
 
Our horses are kept at home and I have no intention of ever going back to a livery yard BUT if I did I should want them to be a yard with some-one living on site. Not because I expect them to be there 24/7 but because I WOULD want there to be someone there overnight.
I know that we look at our horses every time we leave/come back home and this means that they are checked frequently. I would want this to continue at livery, for this reason also I would not want them to be at a yard in a remote situation, even with a live-in YO. Our neighbours are also very good at keeping an eye on our animals, as we are with theirs.
Incidentally CRB checks are not necessarily about what people might or might not do while a child/children are with that person in an 'official' capacity but are a check on people with official access to children who might use that official relationship to gain access to a child at another time, eg I know a School Governor who, in the days before the current CRB checks, made home visits to a family and offered to take the 10 yr old daughter on a visit to a local park. The family brought it to the school's attention and he was told in no uncertain terms that this was inappropriate behaviour.
 
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As for more rights for horse owners that depends on what you agreed to when you moved your horse onto that particular yard. If you don't have a contract stating what you are paying for and what they are supplying you prob don't have many rights.....

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Sadly I am on about basic points what is stated on contracts even down to basic care.
Half of the time the contract is not worth the paper that it is written on.
but when this is put forward (and trust me I have never been a complainer) you get "well you know what you can do", or "tough s@#t", these type of people want your money and that is where it stops as soon as they get it. Please dont think I would want to see YO held over by a barrel all the time but if you say you provide a service thats what should be done when you are paying for it, nothing less.
It needs to be licenced IMO to lets say for eg yards with over 8 customers.

back to the OP Yes if you are running a business of this sort then you should have someone on site. Weather they should have to be or be expected to be tied to the yard 24/7 I think is way unfair. But if that is what they state on a contract it is up to them to provide cover.
 
As a yard owner I am concerned over what aspects of care you feel you should receive & dont get, especially regarding comments such as tough & you know what you can do. I really would appreciate your reasons for these comments. PM if you prefer.
Thanks
 
I hadn't thought of that option, since I'd choose a supervised establishment which would presumably have some sort of security monitoring system.

I have had liveries and was always very conscious of safety, had an 'in case of fire' plan and did the nightly colic checks and skip outs as routine along with mine. I wouldn't want anything preventable happening to any horse I had custody of and I definitely wouldn't leave mine anywhere which was simply locked up and left overnight. The owners of a nice yard near me live half an hour away
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Too much chance for trouble of many kinds.

As for paying extra for a live on site supervisor, I assume you mean a dedicated out of hours person who is merely resident overnight and keeps an ear open in the livery section? That's going to cost! At least another tenner a horse per week, depending on the number of horses in obviously? It might even be a better idea than a presence in the house at the front gate
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I think many horse owners live in a 'Pink Fluffy World' & are totally out of touch with reality. To have a person living on site would be great but many yards do not have the facility & there is little chance of planning permission being granted. If this was to become a requirement then many yards would close down & there would be insufficient places available at other yards to absorbe the sudden influx.

Additionally many horse owners keep their horses on a very tight budget....& some owners are just plain tight! They expect 24hr supervision, constant checking on their horse, video security, alarm systems etc etc & all for £20 pw? Many YOs & Grooms already struggle to make a living, if you work out their hourly rate of pay they will be well under the minimum wage. If owners want all this 24 hour care they will have to be prepared to pay considerably more for it, & they won't want that.

I'm not a livery yard owner, I'm a client & just like many I have to watch the pennies but I am a realist & don't expect something for nothing but unfortunately many owners do.
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