Rescue not allowing dogs off-lead?

When i worked in Lockinge in a racing stable, i had a Young female basset hound. She used to bugger off in the forest every morning and come back with a pheasant. The forest manager say that he was going to shoot her if he saw her again running loose....
I didn't want to tie her up or leave her in the car so i used an electric collar that i rented...
I used it only once and she came straight back, after that she never left the yard again...
I am not proud of using the collar but it worked.
Here in Switzerland it's against the law, i am not sure about the UK ?[/QUOTE]

They are legal here in the USA and I have used one in the past. I took some private lessons with a professional trainer on how to use the collar. It worked for the problem I had. I wouldn't use the collar on a terrier or any type of high prey and fight drive dog. I don't want them banned here but I don't like that any idiot can buy one and "fry" their dog.
 
I should think that the rule is more about making people think rather than saying that they will enforce it. The amount of people who just think that dogs should be off the lead when walking, even when things regularly go wrong, is staggering.

Jainque - a lot of my family live in and around Lausanne and I hardly ever see dogs off lead there, with harnesses being the norm. I just sort of assumed that it was the same everywhere in Switzerland...?
 
GSDW, could you please explain why you would not use an electric collar on a high prey drive dog, please? I have read dogs can make the wrong associations if the timing is not good but I arm curious about all things dog and the psychological mechanism of training with one is a bit of a closed book for me hence the question.
 
Planete,

With my current crew I used the vibrate function to reinforce my recall. The recall was already trained and when the collar was used I always used toys or treats as a reward. Where I live there are A LOT of deer and one of my dogs would chase them. One time, a large buck sprang up about 10 feet in front of us and my boy took off after him. I tried the "stim" and went up with it to no avail. Not proud of that move but I was worried about my dog. Anyway he vocalized and kept going. A very knowledgeable friend told me that as high as his prey drive and fight drive are he may have well thought the buck was causing the issue. From then on when I used it I stuck to the vibrate function and a very low level stim. A friend who trains field work with her dogs told me that the proper level is if the dog barely flicks an ear. It has worked for us though I haven't used it in probably 4 or 5 years.
 
DabDab said:
Jainque - a lot of my family live in and around Lausanne and I hardly ever see dogs off lead there, with harnesses being the norm. I just sort of assumed that it was the same everywhere in Switzerland...?
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I am not sure really, i don't own a dog. In the forest, you can leave them off lead but only certain time of the year, it's is especially dangerous during the hunting season ! Some of the hunters are so drunk they could mistaken your Bernese mountain dog and a fox....
 
For those of you that consider the e-collar a "vile" "torture device" have you ever used one? The modern collars don't need to cause pain to allow long distance communication with the dog. Considering that American field dog trainers used to shoot their dogs in the butt with salt pellets to correct at a distance.
And using the collar doesn't preclude using reward based training. I know of no one that uses the collar before the behavior is trained. It is used to polish at a distance.
 
Until you have had a truly high prey drive dog with the killer instinct (not the pet who fancies his chances and ends up mauling the prey if he can get close enough because he has not got the right instinct bred into him to make a clean kill) you will believe conventional training can sort everything. I used to but I have learnt it will not. I have not used e collars as it is not necessary for me to do so with animals I keep as pets instead of for work, I just use leads and fences. If I was using my dog for work and if, after extensive training, it still behaved like a loose cannon on occasions then I would either give him a different job or I would learn how to use a collar in order to keep him safe.
 
I’ve never used a shock collar, but shocking the JRT stopped him chasing sheep. He shot off towards them when he saw our winter visitors in the top field, he ran into the electric string which surrounded it (to keep the sheep in), got zapped and ran back howling. He’s ignored sheep ever since.

It wasn’t a set up situation at all, but it certainly worked for him.
 
GSD Woman said:
For those of you that consider the e-collar a "vile" "torture device" have you ever used one? The modern collars don't need to cause pain to allow long distance communication with the dog. Considering that American field dog trainers used to shoot their dogs in the butt with salt pellets to correct at a distance.
And using the collar doesn't preclude using reward based training. I know of no one that uses the collar before the behavior is trained. It is used to polish at a distance.
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No, I’ve never used an e-collar nor have I ever shot my dogs in the butt with salt pellets. An electric shock is not a pat on the head. It’s purpose is to give an uncomfortable/painful shock to an undesirable (to the owner) behaviour. It is fear based. No, thank you. The sooner they’re banned, the better.
 
GSD Woman said:
For those of you that consider the e-collar a "vile" "torture device" have you ever used one? The modern collars don't need to cause pain to allow long distance communication with the dog. Considering that American field dog trainers used to shoot their dogs in the butt with salt pellets to correct at a distance.
And using the collar doesn't preclude using reward based training. I know of no one that uses the collar before the behavior is trained. It is used to polish at a distance.
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If the behaviour is already effectively trained why would you need to give your pet an electric shock to "polish" training?

To be effective the collars need to inflict enough pain to cause an animal not to repeat a behaviour.

Dogs can habituate to the pain and need increasing levels of what you call stim (electric shock).
 
The dogs in the UK must be all be easy and never make mistakes. I've used the collar on myself at the level where my dog flicks an ear and it isn't a shock,it felt more like something the physical therapist used on my back when I pulled muscles. Again, if you haven't used one or seen one used in the past few years you don't know how to properly use one to not cause pain. The old style did shock and I would have never used one.
I'm not into using them willy nilly but I have friends that use it to polish so that they can be at the top of competitive obedience. I don't care about the competition enough to use one but I've used as explained before to vibrate and reinforce the recall under heavy distractions. My dogs aren't afraid of the collar because I took the care to teach them the rules before it was ever used. And I had a dog that would have been shot when she got out in farm country if she hadn't recalled. A member of the household carelessly left the door open and the dogs all bolted. This one dog in particular was a stock killer. I think she would agree that learning the collar and getting cookies and play when she returned was much better than being dead.
 
Actually I have seen these collars in use on more than one occasion and for different reasons. One dog wears one every time it leaves the house. The collar has taught it nothing and the behaviour is repeated and punished repeatedly.

I know that in the USA search and rescue dogs can go to a special facility and learn snake avoidance through the use of an Ecollar as a one off training exercise, perhaps in that case the end justifies the means.

We do have dogs with difficult behaviours in the UK but it is to be hoped that people have the patience and compassion to work with these behaviours in a kind and non aversive way and not inflict pain on their pet in the name of training.
 
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I guess it is time to agree to disagree. I know from experience that used correctly the collars don't have to cause pain and many of you believe that the only way that they can work is by causing pain. I'm going on shift tonight and it will mostly be radio silence from me for a while.
 
GSD Woman said:
I guess it is time to agree to disagree. I know from experience that used correctly the collars don't have to cause pain and many of you believe that the only way that they can work is by causing pain. I'm going on shift tonight and it will mostly be radio silence from me for a while.
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I think it just boils down to what training methods we are comfortable with and believe to be in the best interests of our own dog.

I hope you have a quiet shift.
 
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TheresaW said:
Luna had brilliant recall until she turned 2. Now the prey drive is sky high. She has only ever been let off in secure areas anyway, but now, you can see her up and down the fence line looking for ways out to get to the rabbits she knows are there. The husky groups I’m in on FB don’t advocate off lead for them at all.

She has caught a couple that have been on the wrong side of the fence, and plenty of mice.
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That's quite common with Sibes! I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of them go into rescue between 18 months and 3 yrs..

The sled dog rescues i've had anything to do with (including the 2 i got mine from) have it written into their contracts. My sibe has perfect recall - in a secure field when there's no wildlife around. He's lethal though, and gets tunnel vision as soon as he spots prey so is never off lead outside the field.
 
Any lurchers I rehomed I was always told they were to be on lead and muzzled at all times on walks. I just trained them like any other dog and they were all off lead and unmuzzled relatively quickly. of course there will be exemptions (in all breeds, backgrounds etc) where some dogs can't be let off lead but I think the rescues put a blanket "rule" on it probably to cover themselves more than anything
 
conniegirl said:
it is perfectly possible to train recall into older dogs.
Our beagles recall was awful/non existent when he came to us.
He now does most walks 90% off lead (he is on lead when near a road or livestock) and can even be recalled to me when I'm on horseback.
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All my dogs were rescued/rehomed and all trained recall. Of course there will be exceptions and yes it takes work but I agree absolutely do-able
 
This is normal policy with Husky and rescues which import dogs from overseas it seems. Not heard about it happening much in UK rescues though so interesting to hear everyones experience.
 
Terriers covers massive range of breeds. All my terriers I have let off the lead and they have had good recall. My latest from a rescue has excellent recall and was a fantastic flyball dog and everyone knows you need the best recall for that.
 
As for electric collars a friend has a springer who has gone deaf and he wears one on vibrate setting. When she needs him to stop or recall she gives him a buzz and he stops and looks round. He was able to work all last season wearing it, he even get's excited when it is put on as he knows it means doing 'stuff'.
 
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