Rescuers create horses that need rescued.

cobgoblin said:
Not true! Wouldn't touch an ex-racehorse but would definitely go for a native or cob.
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As an experienced horse owner with the money to keep a good horse, would you choose a horse with the conformation and size of these rescues to spend all that money to keep and train for three years?
 
Moomin1 said:
Are you for real?! How does rehoming from a rescue centre perpetuate the problem in any way whatsoever?! Rescue centres (reputable ones anyway) do not line the pockets of the unscrupulous breeders and dealers of these horses. If anything, they do everything in their power to strip them of their business.
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This. Having just rehomed two from whw, they were a bargain, far cheaper than a meat colt, and no sob story either ;)

And they're pretty cute too.
 
Moomin1 said:
Are you for real?! How does rehoming from a rescue centre perpetuate the problem in any way whatsoever?! Rescue centres (reputable ones anyway) do not line the pockets of the unscrupulous breeders and dealers of these horses. If anything, they do everything in their power to strip them of their business.
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The 'meat' colts are valueless to these breeders. That is why they are neglected abandoned or dumped or sold at market for a few pounds.
The more spaces there are at rescue centres, the more animals they can take in, the breeders won't care if these animals are taken from them.
Prosecuting these people will make very little difference in the end, there will always be another member of the family to take over the business of over-breeding.
 
martlin said:
I did actually buy 2 colts, because I have a need for them, not because I wanted to rescue anything, am I excused?
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Did you work out what they are actually going to cost you to end up with what you want, which is presumably not a pair of parasite riddled stallions? I'll bet they'll cost you as much as my well made unbroken four year old cob did by the time they are ready to ride.

Nothing to excuse, as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to buy them if you want them :)
 
cobgoblin said:
The 'meat' colts are valueless to these breeders. That is why they are neglected abandoned or dumped or sold at market for a few pounds.
The more spaces there are at rescue centres, the more animals they can take in, the breeders won't care if these animals are taken from them.
Prosecuting these people will make very little difference in the end, there will always be another member of the family to take over the business of over-breeding.
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Yes, prosecuting them will make little difference, so long as there are mugs out there who keep lining the pockets and making it a profitable business for these breeders. If people stopped, they wouldn't have a business, and the real rescue centres (not someone who thinks they have rescued a horse by paying £50 to stop it being slaughtered) could focus on real neglect, rather than having to pick up every coloured cob dumped on every corner of land going...
 
cptrayes said:
Did you work out what they are actually going to cost you to end up with what you want, which is presumably not a pair of parasite riddled stallions? I'll bet they'll cost you as much as my well made unbroken four year old cob did by the time they are ready to ride.

Nothing to excuse, as far as I'm concerned, you're entitled to buy them if you want them :)
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I'm perfectly aware what they are going to cost me over the years, but as I said, I had the need for a couple of colts, not a well made 4 year old, as I found myself with a single colt foal in a yard full of mares/fillies :) They were actually in very decent nick, passported, chipped, wormed and well fed, but they are a NF and a NFx respectively, so the ''bottom end'' of the market. They are also decently put together and well bred ;)
 
The closure of so many smaller slaughter houses years ago was the first factor in this sorry situation. Then the fact that horses are travelled live to the continent, without any pretence of the welfare laws being observed, adds to it. There being no central database of equine passports is unhelpful, to say the least. Some of the behaviours of the more "established" breeders also doesn't help, not registering the ones with genetic problems with the breed societies and then selling them at 'bargain' prices to the unwary.
The horse population of the UK is larger than that of those able to provide safe, knowledgable homes, horses with poor conformation, inherited problems and health issues as a result of grazing on land with poisonous plants, should IMO be culled for their and the larger equine populations good.
 
martlin said:
I'm perfectly aware what they are going to cost me over the years, but as I said, I had the need for a couple of colts, not a well made 4 year old, as I found myself with a single colt foal in a yard full of mares/fillies :) They were actually in very decent nick, passported, chipped, wormed and well fed, but they are a NF and a NFx respectively, so the ''bottom end'' of the market. They are also decently put together and well bred ;)
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Ah, so you didn't mean from the Oreo bunch then, I misunderstood you and I'm not sure well bred ponies come into what Shils means.
 
Clare85 said:
If you take a horse from a rescue centre then you are not perpetuating the problem. Those horses have been seized and the neglectors have not profited. If you buy a horse directly from the neglectors then you are perpetuating the problem by lining their pockets.

To have a horse from a rescue centre, they have already been treated for whatever issues they have, and they have been rehabilitated. Your home and knowledge is checked and they give you the horse only if you are suitable.

The neglectors couldn't give two hoots about the homes they sell their horses to.
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I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though. When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.

EDT .. got a bit off track :)
 
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doriangrey said:
I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though. When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.
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And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish. They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.
 
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cptrayes said:
Ah, so you didn't mean from the Oreo bunch then, I misunderstood you and I'm not sure well bred ponies come into what Shils means.
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I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt. Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster. You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.
 
martlin said:
No, not a rescue bunch, I'm not that mad :D Nevertheless, they are a part of the general larger population of unwanteds, mainly because of their gender, to be fair.
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They aren't rescues, you paid someone who made sure they were in good nick, vaccinated etc, and they were wanted - by you.
Get off my thread with your red herring horses. :p
S :)
 
Honey08 said:
I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt. Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster. You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.
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As you rightly point out, I am not knocking anyone. I have also acknowledged what a lot of pleasure that thread is giving to his owner and other readers.

FWIW, I don't think they are meat ponies, or they would simply be sent for meat. They are horse equivalent puppy farmed animals, even the fillies..
 
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Honey08 said:
I find the pact that one member of this forum's pony is being referred to frequently a bit below the belt. Can you not just refer generally to meat ponies rather than keep knocking one poster. You may not think you are knocking them, but it seems a bit rude to me.
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I have 20k plus posts without ever being banned, so I'm clearly not prone to personal attacks on others.
Yet.
S ;)
 
The RSPCA and WHW and the like are in no different than any member of the public anyone has the right to 'rescue ' a horse and give it a better life .
When I was a welfare officer I met many people who went the distance to help a horse in need who crossed their path and I salute these people .
Personally I have always been conflicted about this question why is it ok that a large charity takes in a huge load of welshies say and spends a fortune on them but it's wrong for an individual to make a difference to the life of an animal who touches them .
This is a complicated area it's down to luck the lives horses have .
So it's ok for charities to rehome completely useless horses who will only be lawn mowers but people are not allowed to take in a horse whose plight touches them .
I do agree that lots of people purchasing at sales are not really rescuing they are buying cheap horses in need of a home .
I don't see this as a black and white area
 
doriangrey said:
I understand all of these arguments .. but does it matter to the horse though. When did we forget that we are not talking about robots, but a living/breathing/sentient being not thinking of themselves as 'rescues' or 'meat colts', they might - just might (as we do) want to be alive and living.

EDT .. got a bit off track :)
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But the point is that people are enabling the 'breeders' of these horses by buying them, therefore making way for more and more to be born and mistreated and then sold onto goodness knows where. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise that the only way to stop these horses from being mistreated in this way is to stop paying money for them. As I said in my earlier post, we simply do not have enough homes for them all and most would have been better off not entering this world at all. They need to stop bing brought into the world in the first place - the only way to stop this is to make the market disappear. It's a pretty dismal, bottom end market, but ATM it is there nonetheless.

Of course all creatures want to be alive and living. That's nature. Unfortunately, the sad fact of our current welfare crisis means that this is not possible for all. It does break my heart, really it does, but we can't save them all and we have to be realistic and find long term solutions for the huge problem we have. Buying them all is not a solution - they will just produce more and more and more.
 
As usual Shils talks sense, but having bought a meat colt, sense didn't come into it and yes he's cost me a lot of money, he's not going to be a beauty, jumping or dressage but my OH loves him to pieces, he's a character in his own right. But I am lucky enough to own my own land and stables, make my own hay, straw and shavings I buy in and can afford any vet bills. Those that have a place to keep them for life go and buy, those that don't think very hard because you could buy something that will really suit you down to the ground or buy a meat animal that will still cost you the same amount, my youngster who is now 3 years old will never be ridden, such a young age to be a paddock lawn mower for the next 20 years and yes I do wish I'd walked away. :(
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the point made by the OP. The number of welfare cases, unwanted ponies or even 'meat horses' is not decreasing yet increasing so obviously the 'rescue' plan isnt working somewhere.
It also seems nearly every one has a rescue or has rescued their horse, no-one now simply buys a horse it has to be 'rescued' therefore private ads aren't selling forcing prices lower and more and more dodgy dealers coming out of the wood work making a profit out of the bad situation.
They aren't 'meat' ponies just in poor condition which tugs on heart strings. If people stopped buying they would either stop breeding or up their game a little.
Supply and demand, coloured cobs became popular-look at the issue now mainly with coloured cobs!
 
Moomin1 said:
And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish. They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.[/QUOTE

Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
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Shilasdair said:
I have 20k plus posts without ever being banned, so I'm clearly not prone to personal attacks on others.
Yet.
S ;)
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I wasn't referring to you, I don't think you'd mentioned Fide's horse by name had you? While your thread may have been spurred by that, it at least remained general rather than personal in it's comments. That's the way it should be, in my opinion. Whatever people's opinions on Oreo he is now someone's own pony, so people should be a bit more thoughtful.

That's all I wanted to say, people can take it on board or disregard it, I'm not getting into a 40 page "Preloved" saga on the matter!
 
Taking horses is not the problem - as long as no money changes hands you are not incentivising the production of more low end equidae by breeders who compromise horse welfare.
Charities don't pay, so they are morally acceptable. As soon as you give someone £50 for an emaciated weanling, you have PAID for the horse to be maltreated - and the next one, and so on, perpetuating the cruelty.
S :)
 
Goldenstar said:
Moomin1 said:
And so might the hundreds of others..

I'm sorry but all these 'do gooders' 'rescuing' these types of horses really anger me. I understand what some of them think they are doing, but really, it is just selfish. They are creating a huge welfare problem and then they are quite often the very same people who moan and moan that the welfare organisations 'don't do anything' about the situation (when they are bursting at the seams with healthy dumped cobs taking up space which truly neglected horses should be), when in reality it is them who are causing it by funding the breeders.[/QUOTE

Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
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Oh GS, you really should know better than that. It's Joe Public who are the very people who cause an uproar about charities putting healthy animals to sleep. It's Joe Public who are creating the problem, firstly by funding the crisis, and secondly by slating charities who pts.
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Shilasdair said:
Taking horses is not the problem - as long as no money changes hands you are not incentivising the production of more low end equidae by breeders who compromise horse welfare.
Charities don't pay, so they are morally acceptable. As soon as you give someone £50 for an emaciated weanling, you have PAID for the horse to be maltreated - and the next one, and so on, perpetuating the cruelty.
S :)
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I won't condemn people who don't walk away from a horse that crosses their path.
 
Goldenstar said:
Devils advocate time
Send the healthy dumped colts to slaughter and free up space .
If it's ok for ponies to go from auctions to slaughter it's ok to send these colts isn't it
Because that's what would happen to lots of them if they had not ended up with a big charity .
It's a bit rich for a supporter of big charities who store up lots of equines to blame people who decide to give an unlucky horse a better life
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I would have absolutely no objection to the humane euthanasia of excess stock. I'd be happier still though, if we could reduce the quantity of horses bred, and improve the quality and health to improve their viable, healthy lives.

So pay your money to a decent breeder/dealer for quality horses in healthy condition.
S :)
 
Clare85 said:
But the point is that people are enabling the 'breeders' of these horses by buying them, therefore making way for more and more to be born and mistreated and then sold onto goodness knows where. We need to look at the bigger picture and realise that the only way to stop these horses from being mistreated in this way is to stop paying money for them. As I said in my earlier post, we simply do not have enough homes for them all and most would have been better off not entering this world at all. They need to stop bing brought into the world in the first place - the only way to stop this is to make the market disappear. It's a pretty dismal, bottom end market, but ATM it is there nonetheless.

Of course all creatures want to be alive and living. That's nature. Unfortunately, the sad fact of our current welfare crisis means that this is not possible for all. It does break my heart, really it does, but we can't save them all and we have to be realistic and find long term solutions for the huge problem we have. Buying them all is not a solution - they will just produce more and more and more.
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I'm not arguing the toss ..... tell it to the life you intend to end, they don't run for hell for nothing. Of course we can't save them all and I don't have the answer to these disgusting, breeders/sellers - that's not my job because I'm pretty sure that there is someone getting paid an awful lot of money to regulate this kind of thing .. or not .. is there? I'm just saying that to have a go at the odd person who want's to give an unfortunate, equine individual a better life should not be villified for it.
 
doriangrey said:
I'm not arguing the toss ..... tell it to the life you intend to end, they don't run for hell for nothing. Of course we can't save them all and I don't have the answer to these disgusting, breeders/sellers - that's not my job because I'm pretty sure that there is someone getting paid an awful lot of money to regulate this kind of thing .. or not .. is there? I'm just saying that to have a go at the odd person who want's to give an unfortunate, equine individual a better life should not be villified for it.
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No they shouldn't be personally attacked for it, however I also don't think they should be praised either tbh. They should be made aware of the implications of what they have actually done in the larger picture. If that hits a sore point with them, then tough IMO. They may well be of good intention (most are no doubt, though it's obvious on a lot of these FB sites etc that a lot of them just revel in the 'glory') but that's exactly why we are in the crisis we are in this country..
 
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