respect: how do ‘you’ gain it?

AceAmara

AceAmara

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I read with interest another thread about join up, monty roberts techniques and natural horsemanship. I am aware this can be a hot topic but Im interested in hearing some direct comparisons. I hear people saying things like; i never give him an inch, i don’t let him away with anything or conversely; he pushes the boundaries, he gets away with blue murder. I know a lot of it is subjective but just how would you define the above? And how do you personally ensure you have respect?
 
It's really very simple. Fairness and consistency is the key. Same with all animals and children too.

Have rules. Stick to them. Enjoy your well behaved horse.

Personally I rate Richard Maxwell highly and I went to a demo he did when I was 18 and it revolutionised my horsey life from one of bad loaders, kicking rude travellers, refusal to stand tied or stand still to mount, to one of laid back perfection with horses which load themselves, stand quietly tied wherever I choose to leave them including in the trailer and are rock steady to mount.

People keep telling me how lucky I am to have such well behaved calm horses. Yet at least one of them was a raving looney just 7 months ago. You can make any horse more chilled out if you are willing to put the effort in.
 
I think everyone's definition of 'respect' is different and we all have differing ideas of what is and isn't acceptable.

For me, my horses have to be a pleasure to handle and be around. They have to move away from me when I ask (backup and side ways), they have to walk beside or slightly behind me and never ahead and never be strong to lead, they have to know and respect what my idea of 'personal space' is and they learn that if they test me or my boundaries they will be corrected quickly and sharply.

They also know that I am their best friend and here to help and provide support & leadership and so therefore are confident in their surroundings around me and therefore less flighty and nervous.

You only achieve this by having very black and white rules. Not changing day to day what is and isn't acceptable as this confuses your animal - consistency and always having the same rules day in, day out and standing by them as law.
 
I think everyone defines the rules differently, so as an owner it is up to you to decide what you will accept and what you won't. Then teach the horse accordingly - I think fairness and consistency with your own horse is far more important than buying into someone else's concept of "respect".
 
matt_m said:
I think everyone's definition of 'respect' is different and we all have differing ideas of what is and isn't acceptable.

For me, my horses have to be a pleasure to handle and be around. They have to move away from me when I ask (backup and side ways), they have to walk beside or slightly behind me and never ahead and never be strong to lead, they have to know and respect what my idea of 'personal space' is and they learn that if they test me or my boundaries they will be corrected quickly and sharply.

They also know that I am their best friend and here to help and provide support & leadership and so therefore are confident in their surroundings around me and therefore less flighty and nervous.

You only achieve this by having very black and white rules. Not changing day to day what is and isn't acceptable as this confuses your animal - consistency and always having the same rules day in, day out and standing by them as law.
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^^^^ this - perfectly put !
 
matt_m said:
I think everyone's definition of 'respect' is different and we all have differing ideas of what is and isn't acceptable.

For me, my horses have to be a pleasure to handle and be around. They have to move away from me when I ask (backup and side ways), they have to walk beside or slightly behind me and never ahead and never be strong to lead, they have to know and respect what my idea of 'personal space' is and they learn that if they test me or my boundaries they will be corrected quickly and sharply.

They also know that I am their best friend and here to help and provide support & leadership and so therefore are confident in their surroundings around me and therefore less flighty and nervous.

You only achieve this by having very black and white rules. Not changing day to day what is and isn't acceptable as this confuses your animal - consistency and always having the same rules day in, day out and standing by them as law.
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really good reply. I agree, everyones perceptions and expectations will be different. Can I ask what method you use to correct quickly and sharply? Exactly ‘how’ do you ensure things are black and white for your horse? For example if they barged into you, or were messing around, not standing nicely when tied up?

Fionnwinnie, that makes sense too.
 
AceAmara said:
thanks for your reply.would you expand on what you consider to be halter breaking properly?
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If you haven't started with a young horse you may struggle a little, but if the horse is taught to yield to pressure on the halter at a young age and to not step into your space you will have a horse that respects you. As mentioned below Richard Maxwell advocates the principle. It is teachable to the older horse with a rope halter or a dually.

Think you move the horse not the horse moving you.
 
It depends on the horse. They are all different and I don't treat any two horses exactly the same. I use minimum pressure for every horse. Some need no pressure at all, others, you have to come down like a ton of bricks. However, IME the latter is very very rare indeed. Most horses are in between. For example three of the horses at my yard:

My current mare - very brave, cheeky and bossy, but never, ever would intend to hurt you. I found out very quickly that when she was hyped up and forgetting her manners, the absolutely worst thing you could do is get firm with her. It ALWAYS raises her to a higher level. You have to ignore and she calms down.

Older mare - very reactive, spooky and nervous. Again, you have to be very calm and kind around her. Low slow breathing etc whatever she is doing and she calms down.

Older mare's son (rising 4). Huge already 17.1 and from day one as a foal was a handful. Wouldn't follow mare, did his own thing. Double barrelled me age 2 days. Repeatedly did the same to his dam until she finally disciplined him. Never known a foal like him. From a youngster he would stalk you in the field if you turned your back on him and bite anyone who tried to stroke him. I had to come down on him like a ton of bricks. I now have a very trusting relationship with him but he is never allowed to step even slightly out of line. He has to demonstrate his manners more than any other horse I have dealt with. For example, when turning out I just put the head collar on the other horses and lead them out. But he has to wait inside his stable with the door wide open until I invite him through. He has to stop a couple of times on the way to the field and stand nicely, that kind of thing. If I slacken off these things then he does try to push the boundaries again.
 
In answer to the op, 'intuitively'. Horses are individuals, there is no one size fits all but what does stay the same is that it goes both ways. So, no rough treatment. Generating fear is not generating respect. Body language is key, I feel. There's a constant unspoken conversation going on between us and our horses, whenever we are in each others presence and I always remain aware of that. I lay out and maintain boundaries without giving it much thought, to be honest. My expectations are the same of any horse but the means of achieving them might vary ��
 
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Orca said:
In answer to the op, 'intuitively'. Horses are individuals, there is no one size fits all but what does stay the same is that it goes both ways. So, no rough treatment. Generating fear is not generating respect. Body language is key, I feel. There's a constant unspoken conversation going on between us and our horses, whenever we are in each others presence and I always remain aware of that. I lay out and maintain boundaries without giving it much thought, to be honest. My expectations are the same of any horse but the means of achieving them might vary ��
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Umm, maybe !

If a horse walks over me it is likely to get into a conversation up the gizzard with Mr Blue Pipe.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Umm, maybe !

If a horse walks over me it is likely to get into a conversation up the gizzard with Mr Blue Pipe.
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I'm not a blue pipe owner! Nor have I ever been walked over. Obviously, now I've said it, it will happen tomorrow. I'm pretty sure I won't be popping down to Jewsons for a resolution though ��
 
AceAmara said:
really good reply. I agree, everyones perceptions and expectations will be different. Can I ask what method you use to correct quickly and sharply? Exactly ‘how’ do you ensure things are black and white for your horse? For example if they barged into you, or were messing around, not standing nicely when tied up?

Fionnwinnie, that makes sense too.
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That would depend on why they were fidgety when tied up or what caused the horse to barge into me. Horses don't just "do" stuff, there is always a reason and given we are (supposedly) the ones with the advanced brains, it's up to us to figure it out.

And if they are not taught correctly in the first place, then you have to undo and start again.
 
Differently for each horse. Joe is a sweety and a submissive horse to others in the paddock. He is handled very differently to my bossy mare. A quiet "ah" will remind Joe where he should be standing/moving whereas the mare gets bopped on the nose with a leadrope occasionally to keep her in the sweet spot when leading, and periodic refreshers of the ground rules!
But the basic "rules" are the same:
1. You do not climb into my space
2. I move your feet, not the other way around.
3. When leading you stay behind my shoulder. You do NOT get in front (this is a tough one with the mare who marches EVERYWHERE as if she is late!)
4. When I get on, you will stand on a loose rein and await further orders, NOT start walking.
In return, in order to keep their respect:
1. I will leave you alone when you are eating, as a rule (occasional"**** I'm running late" rug changes are allowed)
2. You can have a say in when to walk/trot/canter on the trail.
3. I will NEVER get you into a situation which will hurt you or genuinely scare you. I WILL listen.
You have to show that you are worth respect - this is NOT about being a bully, but about demonstrating that you are worth listening to. You already provide food, water and comfort (rugs, fly spray, scratches) so the other side of that equation is trust. The true 4 legged leaders don't have to bully.
Agree with other posters that if you teach them to lead and tie up correctly as babies, everything else is much easier.
 
It's not gaining respect as much as being fair - reward when good and tell off of being bad. Telling off doesn't work for everything though, depends on how they react, sometimes it's better to ignore the bad and only reward the good.

Eg. When I first bought Billy as a 4 year old (couple of days after) the breeder took us to a hunt with his other horses. Bill got very excited and started to get naughty, and having a small rear when held back behind other horses at times. He didn't refuse any jumps but instead was getting to the point where he was jumping without looking at the fence. Strange experience but he was so excited and brave - so I didn't tell him off as he would read it as excited and brave = wrong. Instead I just rode him through and rewarded the good bits. He wasn't being "bad" ie. Wasn't trying to get me off at any point, he was just so excited he couldn't hold it in! :)

Imo it's based on being able to read your horse and react accordingly.

But being broken correctly is a big factor - but not the parelli version. Billy was very easy to break - the breeder sat on him in the field and he was v happy! Lucky to have such an easy going horse :)
 
Camilla's Aunty Em said:
Totally agree. Never take it personally.
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Yup - it's a strategy that works.

When people talk about respect between people, it's all about personal feelings and attitudes. Is it the same when talking about horses and humans? I don't think so. In my opinion we need to be careful when using the word "respect" not to make it personal when it isn't, since what we are really talking about is behaviour.
 
I've done join-up with a couple of horses I've had who arrived with pushy manners and I felt it helped with our relationship a little, but otherwise I just worked hard with them to get a nice relationship going then respect comes with it. I never use force as such, never needed to. If a horse did anything genuinelly naughty like kick or bite me then I'll admit I do it back! But otherwise, I treat them fairly as I expect them to treat me and I've never had any particular issues - I've been very lucky to only have had 1 horse who really pushed the boundaries. I think you just have to keep the same rules in place, just like others have said - like if mine move into my space when grooming for example then I'll immediately ask them to move away. I think problems start if people ignore these little things and can very quickly escalate into much bigger problems. Nip any tiny things in the bud and mine have always been a dream to handle and ride etc. But I think some people can over-react to these little things too, I saw someone the other day going ballistic on their horse when the horse accidentally stepped on her foot at a show, poor horse was terrified and I dont believe it even knew what it had done wrong so it learnt nothing from the experience and IMO lost respect in its handler. Too many people think a horse is being naughty when it really is just confused or there's other issues going on (normally human-caused). It's just common sense.
 
Respect is a mutual thing. In order to gain your horse's respect, you must respect them too. I'm no fluffy bunny - to me, respecting them just means that you don't change the rules on them suddenly, you look for their signals (i.e. if they're comfortable with something or not), you keep them out of harm's way as much as possible, and you're firm but fair.
E.g. if I've told my horse to stand, he should stand until I come to get him or call him over. If I've not told him to stand, and he moves, I can't tell him off for moving.
If I've told my horse to stand, and someone drops a metal bucket off a lorry and causes an almighty racket and he jumps 2 feet to the side then stands still, I can't tell him off for moving because he's still a living, breathing horse with his own personality and reactions.

So many problems are caused by people fixating on having their horse's 'respect', by which they mean the horse should develop the ability to read minds and act like a flipping robot at all times.
 
Calmness & consistency. Personally, I've never been one to shout or raise my voice. Firmness of tone, consistent handling - for example, I always expect the horses I work with to step back and give me room when I enter the stable. I find the little things, when they become routine, go a long way to setting the foundations of respect and making good behaviour the norm. I found this approach worked with my doggy too!
 
great answers everyone, thank you. I agree that one size does not fit all, i also think its not even something you can teach or learn completely from a book, it’s a ‘feel’, you get to know how to read their body language.
 
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