Responsibilities - yard vs owner

[Jacksie]

I was pondering this today. Whose responsibility do you feel it is to instill and/or maintain good manners in a horse, the owner, the yard staff or both. I’ve known many yard managers/grooms say it’s not their responsibility to do so and in general I’d agree that it should fall to the owner as it’s their animal. But then there’s so many different circumstances for example if the yard is a DIY yard then it seems more clear cut but what about horses that are on full livery or say schooling livery. Would the groom handling/schooling the horse have a responsibility to either instill some basic manners if lacking or at the very least maintain good manners as they may be handling the horse more regularly than the owner does. By manners I mean general day to day leading/handling manners. What do you think…

 

[dorsetladette]

Generally down to the owner but it benefits everyone if yard staff correct undesirable behaviours as they happen.

 

[ihatework]

Both.
My position is it’s up to the owner to ensure the horse has a certain level of good manners/behaviour. It is up to the yard to handle the horse competently to maintain the good manners.

The yard should be sufficiently on it to iron out minor blips - but ultimately it’s not their responsibility to be unpaid trainers for real problems

 

[94lunagem]

Owner. But then as you say it depends on the type of livery, if assisted or full I would expect yard staff to reinforce a basic standard of manners / give the horse consistent messages regarding acceptable (or otherwise) behaviour.

 

[Peglo]

I’m not on a livery but my OH helps with my horses. I have them respecting me but Tali can be cheeky and she’s realised she can get away with things with OH that she won’t with me. I was worrying about her behaviour but when we swapped horses she was foot perfect for me so I couldn’t reinstall her manners as they were there, she’s just being a monkey with him because she can.

So I think the owner should have manners installed but I’d expect them to be kept up if I was paying for services because lack of good handling will allow bad habits to creep in.

 

[Equi]

It’s up to the owner to put in the leg work so the horse knows what is expected of them, it’s up to whoever is handling that horse to keep the handling consistent.

 

[Abacus]

I have this issue with a pony at my yard (I only have one livery, not really by choice). Has terrible manners, will pull absolutely anyone off at high speed if she feels like it. Tramples about on the yard and is generally a badly behaved annoying thing. She came from a riding school where she was a working livery and her novice owner didn't do anything about it, nor did the riding school. The still-novice owner doesn't have the ability to retrain her, and when she came I was very clear that the pony is in no way my responsibility to do anything with apart from throwing her feed and hay along with the others. At that time the owner claimed to be competent and it turns out is not. But if we do need to catch and handle her, she is sometimes a problem. I don't have the time to handle her every day and sort it out. Here I think the responsibility was really with the original riding school to support the owner (it is their business model) but they didn't do it. So what do I do about it?

 

[Birker2020]

I was pondering this today. Whose responsibility do you feel it is to instill and/or maintain good manners in a horse, the owner, the yard staff or both. I’ve known many yard managers/grooms say it’s not their responsibility to do so and in general I’d agree that it should fall to the owner as it’s their animal. But then there’s so many different circumstances for example if the yard is a DIY yard then it seems more clear cut but what about horses that are on full livery or say schooling livery. Would the groom handling/schooling the horse have a responsibility to either instill some basic manners if lacking or at the very least maintain good manners as they may be handling the horse more regularly than the owner does. By manners I mean general day to day leading/handling manners. What do you think…

I'd expect someone handling my horse to deal appropriately with bad behaviour, if it tried to double barrel them or bite them.
Fortunately I've always had fairly easy going nice natured horses so its never been an issue.

 

[ycbm]

But if we do need to catch and handle her, she is sometimes a problem. I don't have the time to handle her every day and sort it out. Here I think the responsibility was really with the original riding school to support the owner (it is their business model) but they didn't do it. So what do I do about it?

Give them notice. As yard owner you are, I think, legally responsible for their welfare and I wouldn't want that responsibility.

To answer the original question, in this case the owner should be paying someone else to come in and train the pony, since that was explicitly not included in her livery.
.

 

[Gloi]

I have this issue with a pony at my yard (I only have one livery, not really by choice). Has terrible manners, will pull absolutely anyone off at high speed if she feels like it. Tramples about on the yard and is generally a badly behaved annoying thing. She came from a riding school where she was a working livery and her novice owner didn't do anything about it, nor did the riding school. The still-novice owner doesn't have the ability to retrain her, and when she came I was very clear that the pony is in no way my responsibility to do anything with apart from throwing her feed and hay along with the others. At that time the owner claimed to be competent and it turns out is not. But if we do need to catch and handle her, she is sometimes a problem. I don't have the time to handle her every day and sort it out. Here I think the responsibility was really with the original riding school to support the owner (it is their business model) but they didn't do it. So what do I do about it?

I think in this case you would be within your rights to ask them to move the pony if you don't want to have to deal with its behaviour

 

[honetpot]

In H&S terms the YO have a duty to their staff, even if they are self employed and the rest of their customers, so there would be a risk assesment about handling, and afraid if the horse owner was not prepared to try and adress these issues they would be asked to leave.
There so many people now who seem to not understand basic horse handling I think as part a livery agreement you should have a frame work of what is acceptable behavoir not only for the horse but the owner.

 

[Abacus]

Give them notice. As yard owner you are, I think, legally responsible for their welfare and I wouldn't want that responsibility.

To answer the original question, in this case the owner should be paying someone else to come in and train the pony, since that was explicitly not included in her livery.
.

I agree, and if only it were that simple. I won't go into specifics as it would be rather identifying, but there are complex family reasons that I don't want to give notice (theirs, not mine). Despite the above the girl is sweet and polite, loves her horse (thank god, no one else does) and really needs it close to home.

 

[MissTyc]

I make sure to instill good manners in my horses and I consider them impeccable behaved. Any time they are on training livery, etc, they get complimented. However, it is also clear to me that the horses on training livery are very competently handled and they tend to become better and better while on livery. On the flipside, I had a self-employed groom help me out for a few months, came highly recommended ... and all my horses seemed to turn into hooligans. It started with her telling me about getting barged or pushed, which seemed weird and I didn't quite believe it until one evening they did it to me! So the groom was relieved her duties (discretely!) and within days the horses were back to being ultra good guys. TBH, I don't even know why they started doing it to and with her as, to watch, she seemed competent, but I think she missed subtle signs of stress and maybe put more pressure into the leading than required and they kinda pushed back? Not sure, but good vs bad handling in the every day makes very swift and big changes to horse behaviour.

 

[ihatework]

I agree, and if only it were that simple. I won't go into specifics as it would be rather identifying, but there are complex family reasons that I don't want to give notice (theirs, not mine). Despite the above the girl is sweet and polite, loves her horse (thank god, no one else does) and really needs it close to home.

Then advise her that unless she brings in an external trainer regularly to help sort the ponies (and her) issues so that the horse is then manageable to handle you will need to give her notice. She has 3 months, That's what I'd do personally if I wasn't prepared to train the horse myself. Most likely I'd want to train it myself and charge them (or they could move if they didn't agree).

 

[Auslander]

I don't feel that it's my responsibility as a YO to put manners on a horse that has none, but for my own safety, I make sure that any undesirable behaviour is dealt with pdq after a horse arrives here. They need to walk when I walk, stop when I stop, move away from me when I ask them to, and not get involved with any other horse that I'm handling - the last one is the most important one for me.
I've had owners who don't want Precious Percy getting a bollocking for insubordination, and I have asked them to leave. I'm firm but fair, and all the horses here know not to mess me around, but also know that I give excellent scratches and usually have something tasty in my pockets

 

[Goldenstar]

If you are not going to serve notice then for your safety you are going to have to put in systems on the yard to make it as safe as reasonably possible .
If that includes handling the horse each day you will have to do so .

 

[lme]

I wouldn't want a yard to do anything other than handle my horses quietly and calmly and certainly wouldn't tolerate a yard owner attempting to 'put manners on them'. However they are generally easy horses to deal with and I would expect to be notified of any change in behaviour.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm a YO (DIY).

IMO it is ultimate the responsibility of the Owner to train their horse. As a DIY YO I certainly wouldn't take on this responsibility.

 

[Cadbury]

In my opinion it’s down to the owner. Grooms are not paid for this (usually) and in any case don’t have the time. In the past I’ve had to turn out horses that have no manners and rear/barge - if I ran a yard I wouldn’t expect staff to deal with this and would insist the owner dealt with it until it could be trusted.

 

[dottylottie]

i think it’s up to the owner to install manners, but it’s the responsibility of anyone handling it to maintain them - i wouldn’t let a friends horse drag me for grass if i did them a favour and turned them out, knowing the owner doesn’t allow it!

in the same vein, i would be a bit miffed if someone knows i don’t let mine, for example, eat the haynet whilst i’m tying it up, but they let them.

i think it’s a reasonable expectation for people to tell them to get back, because i know they will when asked, but i wouldn’t expect a yard owner to teach my horses from scratch!