Responsible breeding??

Simsar

Simsar

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After recent discussions on here, I would like to ask what each individual forum user feels is 'Responsible breeding'?

How many off you evaluate your youngstock to the point of culling(PTS) those that do not come up to scratch?

What do you look for in your mares?

" " " " " " " Stallions?

(Healthy debate only, lets not descend into mayhem again!)

Simon
 
I have only ever bred once off my family cob mare, before she went to stud I had my equine vet out to evaluate her he pointed out a few confo things and what type of stallion to use as he knew what type of youngster I was looking for.
If he had said not to breed because of something seriously wrong I would not have gone ahead, next I had her checked by a fertility vet as she was an older mare however not a maiden when I was given the go ahead on that this is when I looked at different stallions.
I found one I liked, and went to pay a visit to the stud and liked what I saw in the flesh. Who I must say were fantastic, when I dropped my mare off the owner pulled me to one side and recommended I did not use the stallion I chose as he said he thought another one of his stallions would produce a better foal than the one I originally liked. He did also say he knew of another stud yard with a similar stallion who produced colour (which is what I wanted).
I actually listened to what he said, the problem with using the first stallion was he thought because my mare was long backed I should use the other stallion to try and avoid it in the resulting foal also. So because I wanted to take all the advice I could I did use his other stallion, as I liked the yard and how they treated their visiting mares and how they explained everything to me clearly
Most of the over breeding I see are the "coloured cob" breeders who seem to be churning them out at an alarming rate and they are mostly going for meat around here. Also lots of the hill ponies are ending up in dire straights due to the breeders believing because they have dont it for years it gives them a god given right to continue even if the foals are selling for a few pounds at sales.
As for pts my youngster if she was not up to scratch I would only do this if the problem was a painful condition. I only have one youngster and can afford for her to be a field ornament if thats all she was good for. However she is not and will hopefully lead a full and usefull life with me as our next family horse, I hope I was responsible when I bred from my mare as all my horses stay for life.
 
My mare was retired due to an injury as a youngster. She is now on broodmare loan with a forum member, and I hope to breed from her myself in the future. Although she is not a proven mare or graded, I would breed from her due to the following:

1) her pedigree is excellent and she is fully registered
2) she has good conformation and movement
3) I like her personality, she is a trainable type and very athletic, even if not proven in competition
4) she has not had any other injuries or illnesses than mechanical lameness due to a kick in the field
5) she is my pet and I'd want to breed from her to keep for myself
 
Thanks Snoop

I had better put my 2 pennies worth in too

Mares.
Of the 6 mares I have all bar one are proven broodmares.
4 are graded the other two will be soon.
4 are ex comp mares the other 2 were injured young but show good attributes
5 have full pedigrees, 1 is missing the tail femail but she has competed to the highest level of all my mares.
All have good conformation and movement and a sane and trainable temprament.
I personally feel that they are what I want to be breeding and all (bar the maiden) have shown that they consistently throw better than themselves.

Stallions.
Pedigree, conformation, temp, competition record or good youngstock results and most importantly suitability to the mare.

Y/S assessment
I will not sell a foal that I would not be happy to own myself and have and will PTS rather than sell as I would rather know there fate and keep a good reputation (responsible breeding IMHO).

Simon
 
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I have bred once from my riding club type horse. I decided I wanted her foal and she was good enough to breed from. (I am 44 and have owned my own horses for over 30 years)

But, she is possibly the type of mare I would be slated on here for breeding from. I didn't want to buy a foal as I wanted the emotional bond from my much loved mare and her new baby.

However, I took advice, from instructors and breeders and noticed that often the advice was biased towards breeding the sort of horse that 'they' would like. So I thought long and hard about my perfect horse and chose a stallion that had proven offspring. I.e. they pass on their talents, have very trainable temperaments and, for me, are not too tall.

My mare took first time at AI and foaled no problem and produced a very confident friendly little filly that I am totally in love with. She is now a yearling but I would think by the time she is 3 or 4 she will have cost me £6k , totally worth it to me.

Was that responsible breeding? I think so, because I am prepared to be totally responsible for that foal for the rest of her life.

There are undoubtably extremely 'well bred' mares that are having foals because they are too difficult/tempermental/lame to ride - Worth too much on paper to put down, producing foals for sale.

Just as there are fields of cobby types reproducing without thought as to what happens to the offspring.
 
As a lurker on this section and never having bred (or seek to do so) I find the idea that someone would consider (and actually) PTS both startling and reassuring.
It is actually very nice to know that there are people out there who look to sell seriously nice stock and that they don't look to palm them off on numptys like me. I had never even thought that putting poor stock to sleep might happen though once pointed out it does seem obvious.
It must be heartbreaking to breed something and have all those hopes dashed, and then to make such a tough decision. I don't think I could do it but it is oddly reassuring to know someone is, and I guess you aren't the only one Simsar. At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"?
 
Misst
I actually started this post partly because I have just had a colt PTS today, who on paper should have been amazing but in reality wasn't and as I have said I want to know his fate and not that he is being passed from pillar to post also I personally wouldn't want him to have been a horse associated with my name (this sounds harsh but I believe reputation means alot in the horse world).


At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"?

Well with this youngster he had OK conformation, good movement, a nice temp but seemed very short on brain cells and something just said to me from day one that he might not be good enough, I gave him a year to mature a bit and see how he grew (physically and mentally) and to tell you the truth not a lot had changed apart from he had got bigger!! So the descision was made, like you say it is not a nice descision to make and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but that is horse breeding and sometimes things just don't go the way you plan them.

Thanks, I am glad it is reasuring to some people.

Simon
 
That is really interesting Simon- that is why I lurk on here! I am sorry about your colt it must be very disappointing and upsetting. I honestly meant it when I said that it is reassuring, thank you for your honesty as people like me have no idea otherwise what breeding really entails.
 
Simsar said:
Misst
I actually started this post partly because I have just had a colt PTS today, who on paper should have been amazing but in reality wasn't and as I have said I want to know his fate and not that he is being passed from pillar to post also I personally wouldn't want him to have been a horse associated with my name (this sounds harsh but I believe reputation means alot in the horse world).


At what age do you "know" something is not good enough/"right"?

Well with this youngster he had OK conformation, good movement, a nice temp but seemed very short on brain cells and something just said to me from day one that he might not be good enough, I gave him a year to mature a bit and see how he grew (physically and mentally) and to tell you the truth not a lot had changed apart from he had got bigger!! So the descision was made, like you say it is not a nice descision to make and it is heartbreaking when you think about it but that is horse breeding and sometimes things just don't go the way you plan them.

Thanks, I am glad it is reasuring to some people.

Simon
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What would he have not been good enough for?

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be?

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.
 
I try to be up front an honest about all our breeding, including our failures. It costs so much that you can't throw good money after bad. In the last year alone I have had to let 4 mares and now this colt go as they just wern't what I want to breed or producing what I want to breed. It is tough but constantly evaluating your stock is the toughest part of horse breeding and I feel that you have to be open to failure and learn from it.

Simon
 
Allover said:
What would he have not been good enough for?

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be?

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.
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Assume = never do this, it can easily make an ass out of you and me.
 
Allover said:
As does not reading posts properly, i presumed not assumed!!! :D
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Much the same, still a very rude post. Simsar would not put a bullet in a young horse's head without a very good reason and neither would the rest of us.

I fail to see why you need to question the OP on his/her reason.
 
Allover said:
What would he have not been good enough for?

If he had, as you say, OK conformation, nice temp and good movement but a little "short of braincells" then a few more years to mature in the paddock may have been all he needed to be up to the standard of being a decent horse who could have had a long and fullfilling life. (Unless of course you were under the impression he was actually mentally compromised and a danger to himself and others around him IYKWIM)

I am presuming here that you are a breeder of quality sports horses, do you follow the lives of all your offspring to make sure that they are being well cared for and not passed from pillar to post and are you prepared to take them back if needs be?
Yes I am in touch with all that I have bred and more than happy to take them back if I can!

I may be wrong here but your decision to PTS was down to financial reasons alone, you did not want that your reputation be "tarred" from having not bred a "star" horse and did not have the financial commitment to him to see him through for a couple of years to "see what happened".
You are in fact wrong in this case, I am more than happy to breed an average horse that will be someones plod, and as for the financial reasons this is not a problem as I have been very fortunate to sell most of my stock for GOOD money and the costs of running them on are not out of my reach, this colt was the sort of animal who would have been passed around and as there had been ABSOLUTLY no change in him over the last year the descision was made to PTS, as I have already said it was not an easy descision as I had hoped this boy would 'come right' but it was clear to those who had met him that he was never going to make anything so why flood the market with another horse, judge me all you like I know it was the right descision made for the right reasons.

IMO your decision to PTS of this colt is in no way comparable to the "culling" of hill ponies and the like who are being shoved through meat markets and exported to god knows where to meet god knows what fate.
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But it is comparable because if everyone sold on horse like this than we would never have a bottom to the market and the very horses you talk about would face an even more uncertain future.

Simon
 
Healthy debate ladies!!! :)

Everyone is entitled to there opinion.

ETA Allover I did say very short.... not a little....... ;)

Also this is not a descision that has happened over night I have thought long and hard about it, and if it were for purely monetry reasons surely I would have had it done before the winter and not now when they are all out at grass!
 
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I think Simsar is very brave and correct to cull a young horse that he does not feel will grown up to be a useful horse. Horses that are correctly put together and are trainable will be more likely to have a secure future than weak speciments with difficult minds.

The term useful means something different to all of us. I don't mean a horse that necessarily will go to GP. Just a horse that will stay sound and be trainable enough to be a reliable riding animal for someone.

Lame horses or nut jobs are the sad cases that get handed from one home to another.
 
I am unsure as to what level you are breeding your horses too. If you are hoping to breed "top" competition horses then one that is not up to standard may well turn out to be a fab RC horse that does a grand job on a smaller scale.

If you are breeding to RC level and you found the colt not to be up to that standard and "difficult" to boot then PTS may have been to best option for him.

What makes a useful horse? Surely that all depends on the owners?

I have seen horses labelled as thick, or short of a braincell or 2, who are jumping 1m50 tracks, as i mentioned in my previous post this would only be a problem for me if he was dangerous to himself or others.

As far as i am aware from what Simsar has said, the horse was ok in conformation, a decent mover and of a good disposition. Just not the sharpest in the box.

This to me is not good enough reason to PTS. If the horse had poor conformation, moved like a dog and was dangerous to be around then fair enough.
 
With mares, we rarely use anything that doesn't have a stellar competition record. We have several ex racers, eventers (inc several 2/3* mares) one pure dressage mare, and a couple of showjumpers. Each mare combines this with an outstanding pedigree. We have one mare whose lineage is unknown but she is the exception to the rule, part owned by a very successful eventer who tends to keep all her foals anyway :rolleyes:

Stallion wise, again we use the principle of successful sports horse + good pedigree to bring out the best in our mares. As an example, on Sunday our Soprano filly was born. We chose him to bring in sex balanced Ramiro Z lines, and concentrate Phalaris, Precipitation and Teddy, whilst decreasing to 63% TB.
Again, the exception is our own stallion who is only 4 years old, and though showing extreme potential under saddle (and in the show ring) obviously has limited competition results.

As a result, we have successful foals for the upper level amateur or professional.

Whilst I do appreciate that someone needs to breed horses and hacks for the true amateur or pleasure rider, in my opinion the problems arise when it is the amateur breeder attempting this.
Regardless of if a horse is only being bred to do riding club level competition, or hack a few times a week etc, the breeder still needs to be aware of breeding for correct conformation, soundness and minimizing faults. You see on many forums people assuming that regardless of trainwreck conformation, their mare has served them well and therefore deserves to breed and pass these traits on. Just because it's for an amateur home doesn't mean conformation can be ignored!

On PTS youngstock, I have done it twice in the last four years. Foals were, as with OP conformationally fine but one colt broke his pelvis, the other we suspect had something wrong neurologically was was prone to snapping. Yes, the latter could have been sold on fine and no one would have noticed for a while, the former could have been rehabbed, but we made the decision to PTS rather than risk him being passed around for a lifetime as marginally unsound.

I have not been in the position where I would have to PTS due to poor confo or not being a 'good advert' for the stud, we've been lucky. If I did, I would probably either keep foal out of pity (I'm soft) and it could grow up keeping the others company, then as a weaning buddy, or PTS if I wasn't in the financial position to keep them.
 
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Allover said:
This to me is not good enough reason to PTS. If the horse had poor conformation, moved like a dog and was dangerous to be around then fair enough.
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Excuse me for butting in but just what has it to do with you whether you think it's a good enough reason or not? It wasn't your decision so please don't carp about it as if it was.
Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would. Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself.

FWIW, I have only bred from mares which have passed conformation and temperament muster; yes, there might be things you'd like to improve, there always are, nothing's perfect but they have never had any conformation faults as such. I've always aimed to breed decent looking, good moving animals with great temperaments and can't have done too badly with show champions, race winners and great all rounders/hunters under my belt let alone them being bought by people like Andrew Nicholson, Robert Walker and my vet.
I have a coloured mare I bought as a hack and people automatically assumed I'd breed from her; how wrong they are. The fact she has unknown breeding is not a problem for me but her conformation is; if there was a way to ensure she could never breed, ever, if I sold her then I would do it; she's attractive, a good performer with a nice temperament but she's not well made enough, full stop although many other people can't see my problem with her and would breed from her like a shot. We're not all irresponsible to breed from anything with a womb.
 
fascinating discussion, i've often wondered if horse breeders were expected be be like dog breeders and take responsibility for the foals they produce, i am pleasantly surprised to hear that some are:) Have any of you ever taken back a horse that you have bred for any reason?
 
I've never bred anything, nor have I worked on stud yards, but I'm going to stick my two pennyworths in anyway. I have a 23yr old pony that I deeply regret not breeding from when younger. She's 14.2, out of a well bred, but overheight connie with good lines, sire was a tb who's progeny were mostly nice low level affiliated all rounders. Despite being a cross, temperament & ability were strongly transferred traits on both sides. Let alone confirmation, both hers & parents, plus the fact she had a good competition record. I had lots of people in the past tell me it was a crime not to breed her, including a couple of breeders. I'm pretty sure even in the current market any youngster of hers would have sold, she is the popular combination of a pony able to be handled by a tiny tot, whilst still being able to hold her own competing. She'd never breed a champion, but good quality allrounders for pony club yes. So if I had bred it would have been responsible. However random fools have told me to breed from daughters unregistered 11.1, who whilst a nice pony, is unregistered (mini x nf we think) & will be only 7 or 8 when outgrown so won't have a fab track record as a kids pony. That to me sums up irresponsible breeding, to breed with no personal use & no market.
As for breeders choosing to pts, it seems obvious to me if they were doing it for anything other than good reasons, it would surely make more economical sense to sell, so I don't think its necessary to question their motives.
Irresponsible breeding to me is breeding when you have no good market, unless you intend keeping yourself.
 
No haven't taken one back but have gone well out of my way and willingly, with pleasure to help someone keep a horse by my stallion that she keeps trying to give back as she feels he could go further than she might want to. Happily we have found ways to work everything and she also now believes that she deserves a decent horse after all the mad, messes she has had in the past.
I am also considering trying to work out keeping a small share in any I breed, not so I gain from their futures just because I want to safeguard them. I have no idea if this is workable or even if people will still buy but haven't sold any yet so nothing ventured nothing gained I suppose.
Would I put down something not up to standard, if it had reduced quality of life or was dangerous yes and every day I look at my now 5 year old that was a very challenged orphan and wonder. I bred her to sell as so many people offered money for her older sister but will never sell her now despite having been asked to several times since she was a foal. She is not right enough in my opinion but it seems that buyers will not beware enough to take that into account.
 
Ibblebibble said:
fascinating discussion, i've often wondered if horse breeders were expected be be like dog breeders and take responsibility for the foals they produce, i am pleasantly surprised to hear that some are:) Have any of you ever taken back a horse that you have bred for any reason?
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I took one of my mares back, though my situation was a little different to others. I'd sold her in 2000, she was sold on a couple of times before ending up with a international eventer who got her to ** level. I entered into a breeding partnership with the eventer, and recognized Effie, who was coming to the end of her competitive life, so her owner signed her over to me.

Effie has since gone on to breed a multiple FEH Grand Champion colt, and is in foal to Riverman for this season to capitalize on Landgraf and Ibrahim lines.
 
thank you for answering cherrygarden and wits end, it is reassuring to know that there are responsible breeders out there, we tend to only hear about the ones who are churning out poor quality stock as a money making exercise.
I have often been asked why i don't put my big mare in foal, she's a 17hh ISH by Able Albert and people assume i must want to make money out of her:rolleyes: i have no intention of ever breeding from her as i don't feel i have enough knowledge on the subject and and am not prepared to risk her in any way for my own gain.
 
Maesfen said:
Excuse me for butting in but just what has it to do with you whether you think it's a good enough reason or not? It wasn't your decision so please don't carp about it as if it was.
Simsar knows his stock through and through and this one had always been a worry for him because it was so dense even with field mates to almost be a danger to them let alone himself so would be totally unsuitable to even be a plod if he couldn't look after himself let alone a rider; I applaud him for taking the responsible action, only wish more breeders would. Bad conformation faults aren't the only sin, a sound and healthy mind (which this one didn't have) is almost more important because it can rebound so disastrously on other people; the only one affected by bad conformation is the horse itself.

Am i not allowed an opinion? If you post on a public forum you have to expect not all views will be the same as the ones you hold?

If you go back and read my posts you will see that i have said all along that "if it was a danger to itself and others" then i would have no problem with PTS. What i do have a problem with is PTS of an animal that, although sound of body and nice tempered, is deemed to be a bit "dim".
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Am i not allowed an opinion? If you post on a public forum you have to expect not all views will be the same as the ones you hold?

If you go back and read my posts you will see that i have said all along that "if it was a danger to itself and others" then i would have no problem with PTS. What i do have a problem with is PTS of an animal that, although sound of body and nice tempered, is deemed to be a bit "dim".

The problem is that you presume to know my predicament from a few words here, I have at no point said he was a bit ''dim'' if he was just that I would have said just that and he would still be in my field.

As I have said all along opinions and sensible debate are welcome. However as I have also said don't think for one second this was an easy descision to make and there were lots of reasons (some of which I have explained) for this colt being PTS, the whole point of this post was to see what others thought responsible breeding was about it seems to have gone a little off topic and focused on one thing.

Maesfen was only butting in as she knows the situation better than most as I have had some of her stock here and have spoken to her about this colt since he was born, I could go into lots of detail about him, but there really was no need. Ultimately it was his mind (or lack off) that was in question but as the person who delt with him every day I felt that I was the best person to judge this and with some help from vets and other experienced breeding friends came to what I felt was the right descision.

So now can we please get back to the original topic..................... :)
 
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Have I ever taken stock back?

No, so far I haven't had to, however I have pulled out on sales if I felt that the new owner wasn't the best for the youngster, and I hope that by placing them with the right person I SHOULDN'T have to take any back. :)
 
I was given one back (does that count?) when the owner emigrated to NZ, he was 15 then, just 22 now, full of beans and enjoying life as a happy hacker/hunter for a friend who couldn't afford to buy what he was; when she thinks he's had enough of being ridden he'll come back home.

Like Simsar, I will hopefully have done my homework on new owners but should the need arise, they all know I will do my best to help them out, yes, even if that means having them back.
 
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Simsar said:
Have I ever taken stock back?

No, so far I haven't had to, however I have pulled out on sales if I felt that the new owner wasn't the best for the youngster, and I hope that by placing them with the right person I SHOULDN'T have to take any back. :)
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:) good point,but if , due to some unforseen change in circumstance would you take a youngster back rather than it being put through the sales or sold on ?
BTW i am impressed that you've pulled out of sales for the sake of the horse, that is so how it should be :)
 
Simsar said:
The problem is that you presume to know my predicament from a few words here, I have at no point said he was a bit ''dim'' if he was just that I would have said just that and he would still be in my field.

i can only form an opinion on what you have written here, it was Maefsen that mentioned the horse could be dangerous. Again if you read my posts i specifically said that if the horse was dangerous then PTS would be the best option. In fact after your last post it seems that i am agreeing with your decision?


So now can we please get back to the original topic..................... :)
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:).....
 
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