Restarting a newly broken reactive pony?

[Hazel02]

In a bit of a tricky situation and seeking a bit of advice.
I have backed several horses and ponies however this one has me stumped, he seems to take 1 step forward and then 5 steps back out of nowhere.
Pony has been backed since around April/May time (and has been leaned over a few times a week since Feb then sat on a few nights per week since about March until I felt he was ready to actually start backing properly outside of the stable), he has jumped 3 times under saddle and has been superb however due to various different factors he has had spells of being off for a couple of weeks at a time and I feel when I go back to it he is noticeably different which I can expect however it almost feels like huge steps back. He hacks out alone as I believe in long reining and starting them off under saddle out hacking so he’s good as gold hacking out, I’ve (attempted to but he isn’t the quickest) galloped him up a big hill in an open field several times and never felt unsafe, hacked past cars, bikes, dogs etc, taken him into the arena and got 3 nice paces out of him with transitions and canter circles etc again good as gold however he had a week or so off again due to personal reasons and when I got back on he again felt different, more tense. I decided to make a point of tacking him up and going a walk on him most nights for the past 2 weeks and in this time I noticed he’s very impatient when asked to stand still and for about 75% of the ‘ride’ he has his ears back which is raising alarm bells with me as I feel there is tension there. Weirdly the faster he goes the less tense he feels which doesn’t really make sense to me which is why I’m seeking some advice. The whole point of doing the walks most nights was to help release the tension he is feeling and realise I’m not asking for more than a walk and it’s nothing to be worried about however I feel he didn’t get the message.
One thing I have also noticed is that when he is stood or walking and he starts to relax that when I speak to him his ears go back again as if he remembers I’m on board. I just find it bizarre how he can go from one extreme to another and I’m not sure what more groundwork I can do to help him on this as I felt I did cover the vast majority of it to set him up for his ridden life but I know there must be something bothering him.

* I should also add when he’s had time off he has bronced me off twice as soon as I’ve swung my leg round and after not doing that for 2 weeks he had 2 days off over the weekend and had a broncing fit in his stable yesterday when I tried a new saddle on him but part of me thinks that was to do with the ‘new’ sounds he was hearing as it a leather saddle opposed to the synthetic one he is used to so it is much squeakier as leather is and it has heavier stirrups on it so I do think his reaction was to something new rather than it not fitting/hurting as he did let me on board afterwards and although he was tense he didn’t try throw any shapes.

Sorry for the long post, just trying to give as much info as possible and seeking advice on how to approach this as I obviously don’t want him to be worried although I do think he is just a very reactive pony - I do also have some valerian on the way for him, I tried chamomile but it didn’t do a thing.

Edit: pony has also had a hard life before coming to me I have been told but on the ground he has turned out so sweet and loves a cuddle so it makes me sad he still has this tension under saddle as he should know he’s safe, he’s such a sweet boy I just want to make him as comfortable and as chilled as possible!

 

[sassandbells]

Sorry you’re having such trouble, it can be so tough when you don’t know what’s causing these behaviours. Please can I check, have you had any vet investigations & was the new saddle fitted by reputable saddle fitter? Or dentist / physio etc

 

[Hazel02]

Sorry you’re having such trouble, it can be so tough when you don’t know what’s causing these behaviours. Please can I check, have you had any vet investigations & was the new saddle fitted by reputable saddle fitter? Or dentist / physio etc

The new saddle wasn’t fitted however the previous one was and the new saddle is just a leather version of the previous one, I even changed the gullet to the same size as it is a changeable gullet saddle.
We had the physio out a few weeks ago and they said he is heavy in the back end and very light in his front, not entirely sure what this means but I know the physio did say when lifting his front feet there’s barely any weight and it’s as if all of his weight is in the backend. Since the physio I’ve been doing some hill walking and walking over poles but she otherwise wasn’t overly concerned about him, just said he needed to build up the muscle and engage his backend a bit more. Vet was out at the start of the year for him and had no concerns, a full dental checkup and rasp was done in March who said he was fine also but I got a dentist to check him again a couple weeks ago for wolf teeth as I was unsure if this could be causing the sudden change of attitude and she confirmed there were no wolf teeth so I’m just at a bit of a dead end of the supplement doesn’t work, I’m going to try valerian and then my next stop is magnesium

 

[Boulty]

He’s barely been backed a few months and he’s had some weeks off mixed in with that. He’s not going to be anywhere near consistently knowing his job yet (depressingly my instructor joked the other day that horses only become truly rideable somewhere around advanced medium… at least I hope she was joking!)

Even if you feel this saddle is nearly identical to the previous one just a different material I’d still get it properly fitted as for one thing the flocking is unlikely to be optimally moulded to his shape (unless brand new and you’re in the process of bedding it in) and for another the shape that fitted him when just backed is unlikely to be the exact shape that fits well now as hopefully he will have gained muscle. We had to keep tweaking things every few months in the first year after backing my idiot included widening the head plate of the saddle. The frequency of us having to faff with flocking does seem to have slowed down for the moment.

If the bronking is a regular thing then personally would reinvolve the vet as well.

If you feel he’s happier hacking right now then maybe focus mainly on that and do a bit of schooling whilst you hack whilst also maybe having some lessons with an instructor to help give you exercises to settle him when he’s tense. An in person professional opinion of how to proceed is likely to be useful anyway (would likely be of most use if you sought out someone used to dealing with similar issues)

 

[PurBee]

Obviously there’s potentially plenty of possible causes for what you describe, and sounds like youre going through the journey of ticking off the list. When you describe ears back when you’re on board, broncing/bucking, tension, hard life before you (how old is he?)- i would wonder about pain and the condition of his back. An x-ray would tick the common kissing spines worry off the list. Pain and tension might explain why he seemingly doesn’t learn systematically, rationally, as they usually do. The pain/tension hinders his ability to digest the training information, so its 1 step forward, and 5 back like you describe.
Maybe there’s the involvement of ulcers, if there’s some hidden pain somewhere, ulcers can develop secondary.

There is a great youtube video of a guy who did a neuro-pressure point test on horses for likelihood of ulcers. I can’t recall his name. I think @Birker2020 posted a link to the guy a few months back - if you see this Birker do you remember the guy and please repost that link?


I’d personally try magnesium before valerian - magnesium is essential to the diet, skeleton, nervous system, cardio/muscular system, and very often deficient in soils/forage. Valerian is like taking a benzo - it affects neurotransmitter receptors, and shouldn’t be used longterm for humans, let alone animals, but i know that’s not often followed. Herbs are often given a glistening ‘safe from nature’ reputation but most pharma drugs are developed from compounds in herbs, so we must remember herbs are powerful medications too.

 

[SEL]

What breed is the pony?

Your description very much reminds me of my Appy when she was young. I was at a loss. Everyone agreed there was "something" but no one really knew where to look and then I randomly read about PSSM when I was looking for something else. It's the time off that was the issue because the glycogen built up in her muscles.

 

[TheMule]

I'd be willing to bet there is a physical cause for this as it just isn’t a normal pattern of behavior. Where you start to try to identify the issue is tricky, but I'd want a basic work up from the vet first

 

[Hazel02]

He’s barely been backed a few months and he’s had some weeks off mixed in with that. He’s not going to be anywhere near consistently knowing his job yet (depressingly my instructor joked the other day that horses only become truly rideable somewhere around advanced medium… at least I hope she was joking!)

Even if you feel this saddle is nearly identical to the previous one just a different material I’d still get it properly fitted as for one thing the flocking is unlikely to be optimally moulded to his shape (unless brand new and you’re in the process of bedding it in) and for another the shape that fitted him when just backed is unlikely to be the exact shape that fits well now as hopefully he will have gained muscle. We had to keep tweaking things every few months in the first year after backing my idiot included widening the head plate of the saddle. The frequency of us having to faff with flocking does seem to have slowed down for the moment.

If the bronking is a regular thing then personally would reinvolve the vet as well.

If you feel he’s happier hacking right now then maybe focus mainly on that and do a bit of schooling whilst you hack whilst also maybe having some lessons with an instructor to help give you exercises to settle him when he’s tense. An in person professional opinion of how to proceed is likely to be useful anyway (would likely be of most use if you sought out someone used to dealing with similar issues)

The broncing has only happened on two occasions which have been weeks/months apart but both in the same area when I mounted up and then again the other day in the stable when I popped the new saddle on him and pushed him to move back in the stable then it’s like something flipped although I could see his back was already going tense however I did just think it was down to the different sounds he was hearing behind him.

It’s a difficult one as if I mount up in the arena then ride in there or mount up in the stable block then go a hack he’s more or less just the same, initially a bit tense but then settles and feels much more chill by the end of the ride and as he goes on so he gives me the same give or take when I hack or when I school. It’s just when I walk him around the yard I feel he doesn’t settle much but then again I can’t say I’ve ever walked him around the yard for more then 15/20 minutes as it’s not a very big yard to walk around so that might be worth a try.

 

[Hazel02]

What breed is the pony?

Your description very much reminds me of my Appy when she was young. I was at a loss. Everyone agreed there was "something" but no one really knew where to look and then I randomly read about PSSM when I was looking for something else. It's the time off that was the issue because the glycogen built up in her muscles.

He is some sort of Welsh pony but I started to consider pssm last night too although I’ve only ever known it in cobs so don’t know much about it tbh!

 

[Hazel02]

Obviously there’s potentially plenty of possible causes for what you describe, and sounds like youre going through the journey of ticking off the list. When you describe ears back when you’re on board, broncing/bucking, tension, hard life before you (how old is he?)- i would wonder about pain and the condition of his back. An x-ray would tick the common kissing spines worry off the list. Pain and tension might explain why he seemingly doesn’t learn systematically, rationally, as they usually do. The pain/tension hinders his ability to digest the training information, so its 1 step forward, and 5 back like you describe.
Maybe there’s the involvement of ulcers, if there’s some hidden pain somewhere, ulcers can develop secondary.

There is a great youtube video of a guy who did a neuro-pressure point test on horses for likelihood of ulcers. I can’t recall his name. I think @Birker2020 posted a link to the guy a few months back - if you see this Birker do you remember the guy and please repost that link?


I’d personally try magnesium before valerian - magnesium is essential to the diet, skeleton, nervous system, cardio/muscular system, and very often deficient in soils/forage. Valerian is like taking a benzo - it affects neurotransmitter receptors, and shouldn’t be used longterm for humans, let alone animals, but i know that’s not often followed. Herbs are often given a glistening ‘safe from nature’ reputation but most pharma drugs are developed from compounds in herbs, so we must remember herbs are powerful medications too.

He was sold to me as a 4 year old but is suspected to be slightly older by the dentist. He had no handling prior to coming to me and was just treated like another farm animal chased around when he needed to be moved.
The physio a few weeks ago tried sort of manipulating his back to see fit a reaction but he didn’t really give anything, the only time I really get a reaction from him is occasionally when touching his backend or near his flank area however I understand both places I’m near sensitive areas so I’ve always thought that was why and the physio did agree it could just be that especially as he doesn’t do it every time.

Yeah I read a bit more about magnesium last night so I’ve ordered some which will hopefully be here tomorrow so I’ll try it first, how long do you recommend using before I should see changes if I am going to see any? Thank you!

 

[bubsqueaks]

Id have a full vet work up done. We had different but puzzling scenario with our recently backed 4 year old & in the end it just puts your mind at rest that hopefully its nothing obvious linked to pain - its so tricky when you dont know what the norm is with them together with their changing muscles etc - expensive but at such a critical stage in their education worth knowing your not pushing them whilst in pain.

 

[irishdraft]

There could be some pain there but to me it sounds like his education hasn't been quietly consistent. He was backed April/may which was only 3/4 months ago but you have jumped and galloped him with also having periods of time off. I would think he's probably anxious and possibly confused about what's being asked, going faster ie running/ flight is maybe reducing the anxiety which is why he feels abit more relaxed . If he were mine I'd concentrate on hacking quietly for 6 months with maybe a little schooling and try to keep it consistent. ie 5 days a week 2 days off type of thing.

 

[Hazel02]

There could be some pain there but to me it sounds like his education hasn't been quietly consistent. He was backed April/may which was only 3/4 months ago but you have jumped and galloped him with also having periods of time off. I would think he's probably anxious and possibly confused about what's being asked, going faster ie running/ flight is maybe reducing the anxiety which is why he feels abit more relaxed . If he were mine I'd concentrate on hacking quietly for 6 months with maybe a little schooling and try to keep it consistent. ie 5 days a week 2 days off type of thing.

That I will hold my hands up to, I have always been so consistent with previous ponies but with other things going on I haven’t been as consistent with him and think this will definitely have had an effect on him. The galloping up hills out hacking was when he was in the most consistent work before all the little breaks started and as for jumping he jumped twice before the breaks then once after he’d had a couple weeks break and he was great every time, he didn’t pick up speed to bomb into it but also didn’t slow down and back off.
That’s a good insight with the running/flight thing as I didn’t consider that but that could explain why he feels ‘safer’ if you like at a faster pace. I agree on the consistent hacking thing, that’s why I did start this with 2 weeks of solidly just plodding around on him most nights but I just felt I wasn’t feeling much difference in him the way I expected however I know this isn’t linear and it may just be a case of him needing a lot more time. He’s definitely been my trickiest breaker so far which is the only reason I’m starting to doubt myself now as usually I can find a reason and work through it with them but with him he’s got me stumped because it’s so unpredictable when he might not like something and trying to figure out why he doesn’t like it even if he’s done it before and been ok! The other thing I considered regarding being more settled in the faster pace is I wonder if it’s because he knows that’s all I’m going to ask is to canter (as in I’m not going to ask him to go faster and race around the arena) but on the flip side I’ve also never gave him a proper kick or even so much as carried a whip to make him anticipate something so that then puts that logic into a bit of a dead end. Even our ‘gallops’ up the hill I just squeeze and click, I actually don’t ever give him a proper kick as he’s responsive enough that he doesn’t need it, sometimes he doesn’t even need a squeeze! I am going to try him on magnesium and will try and to just keep up the plodding along consistently.

 

[PurBee]

He was sold to me as a 4 year old but is suspected to be slightly older by the dentist. He had no handling prior to coming to me and was just treated like another farm animal chased around when he needed to be moved.
The physio a few weeks ago tried sort of manipulating his back to see fit a reaction but he didn’t really give anything, the only time I really get a reaction from him is occasionally when touching his backend or near his flank area however I understand both places I’m near sensitive areas so I’ve always thought that was why and the physio did agree it could just be that especially as he doesn’t do it every time.

Yeah I read a bit more about magnesium last night so I’ve ordered some which will hopefully be here tomorrow so I’ll try it first, how long do you recommend using before I should see changes if I am going to see any? Thank you!

With magnesium and seeing changes depends on dose and what levels he has already in his body. If he is started on 10 grams mag oxide, which gives 5 grams elemental magnesium - that’ll be a start dose for a week. Then increase to 20grams (heaped tablespoon generally), giving 10g elemental = rough RDA maintenance non working 500kg horse. As he’s being lightly worked at the moment, he’d usually need more, but factor in forage/grazing, bushes/trees/other feeds youre giving will be giving an amount (unless youre giving a concentrated mineral balancer? That usually has a good dose of magnesium added, so factor that in).

I usually wait 2 weeks for the body to fully excrete via waste and kidneys any food/medication etc - so i tend to also allow 2 weeks of giving something new to fully be absorbed to monitor changes.
With a deficient horse, improvements are usually seen much quicker.

Hind gut ulcers are a possibility if there’s rear flank sensitivity. Some posters have had success settling ‘gut sensitive’ types using ‘oily herbs’ (if you do a search of that in search ar at top right of this page, as title of thread youll find more info on a thread discussing this recently - dried herb mixtures used)