Retraining a show jumper??

sportsmansB

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Hi All

I have recently acquired a lovely new horse. She is a 9yo mare with decent ISH breeding and has a great step and a decent jump
She has had a couple of years of difficult riding with an amateur show jumper and basically just goes
WALK TROT CANTER JUMP
She has made decent progress in the few weeks I have had her just by schooling and hacking (no jumping) and chilling out in the field. She works beautifully until she has cantered on both reins and then she just doesn't really understand at all that life can go back to nice trots and long rein walks and normal stuff... She jig jogs, grabs the bit, trots like a demon (gypsy trotter stylee) etc.
I have been schooling her twice a week, having one lesson and hacking the other days with the odd wee lunge (at which she is perfect completely voice controlled and not loony after canter at all)
I am trying so hard to vary the schooling routine (starting with stretching which she also wasn't very good at) then going back to walk and starting in contact, sometimes cantering before I trot to mix it up a bit, sometimes dandering off for a wander in the field in the middle of the session on a long rein and then coming back, etc etc.
My question is has anyone else had success with one whose habits are so engrained - she definitely has the paces for dressage, and is the loveliest person. She might make an eventer as she can jump but I have been trying not to make her think about jumping.
I entered a prelim class for this weekend just to see what happens and now I think maybe I am a crazy person
Instructor thinks even if it falls apart a bit half way through she prob has the paces and presence not to get a bad score
Any success stories? I absolutely love her she is the comfiest horse I have ever ridden, so sweet yet responsive, an angel to travel, hack and handle and it would be nice to know we will end up OK. Spoke to someone at the weekend who had an ex showjumper and tried to retrain them for dressage and gave up after 6 months :-(

Prosecco (before it all runs out lol) if you got this far thanks a million!
 

wkiwi

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Yes, very common!
I used to re-school horses using a similar process to what you are doing, then someone (dressage rider) suggested a different tactic which has worked for me with horses like this (and i am just working on one at the moment that sounds exactly the same, but less time spent showjumping and she didn't know how to trot a circle).
Rather than trying to canter then settle the horse after, just do lots and lots of canter transitions until they become 'routine' to the horse's day. Doesn't matter if you do it in the school or out hacking, but must be somewhere you can circle.
Don't let the horse canter more than half a dozen strides, and don't hang on to the mouth during the transitions (very important). I.e. ask for canter, let canter a few strides, then ask for trot (verbal and a light aid) and if if doesn't trot when asked then turn on a small circle so has to trot.
If you can, repeat several times around a large circle (rather than trotting lots in between). For an unfit horse, only do for half a dozen transitions on each rein (though you may just want to work on the easiest rein first). If need be, then do a small (10m) trot circle before re-asking for canter.
On a fit horse, do 10 minutes of trot/canter transitions a day (but only if the horse is fit, otherwise i don't do more than about 10 transitions in total). Keep calm and keep breathing at all times, ignore head tossing and any faffing around but praise the fact that it cantered instantly, and again as soon as it trots (very important not to pull to trot, just give a normal 'ask' aid). I.e. make it a routine everyday experience. Once finished the transitions, ask for stretch at walk and then stop for the day (i.e. don't try and re-establish the trot - I used to worry about this at first, but it miraculously comes back later as soon as the canter is settled).

The horse i first used it on had been ridden in fixed side reins !!! for a long time; they even used them when jumping to practice, although not in the ring. He had then had other owners, but still only jumping. I got him at about age 10 to train for eventing, and had problems with the canter for dressage, even though he was very controllable jumping - this method changed him within two weeks (I didn't believe it would, as no progress at all for several days, but the instructor said minimum of two weeks and it worked!).

Prior to this i thought that reestablishing a calm steady trot between each canter was important, but seems the horse is just waiting for the next canter aid so by repeating lots of transitions and not going anywhere it seems to settle them down quite quickly. I am not saying it will work for every horse, but it has certainly worked for every horse that i have used it on (takes me longer than two weeks if an unfit horse and poor balance in the canter though, as has to build up muscle too; so i go at the rate the horse can cope without getting stressy-sweaty). Once the horse accepts it as routine without worrying, then you can ask for half a circle then a circle, then longer canters.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, whichever method you choose don't give up, as there are success stories out there and i personally believe that teh majority of horses (without physical problems) can be retrained for dressage.
 

Welly

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Have no answers but I bought a little mare which had been used to showjump and when she wasn't jumping she was in draw reins! It took 3 months of doing nothing but hacking on a long rein before I could take a contact and her head didn't disappear between her knees! But what a lovely horse she is now, good luck.
 

sportsmansB

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Thanks Guys!
Funny, my dressage instructor was all about re-establishing the trot
And my friend who is an eventer was the other way- just busy her about canter trot canter whatever until it is no biggie any more and essentially desensitize her by doing lots and she will eventually realise its normal
Probably now, 4 days before said ill-advised dressage test, is not the time to make major changes but hey ho we'll give it a go :)
 

wkiwi

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She will end up okay. You are right that 4 days before dressage test is too soon to make major changes, so just enjoy it, remember the good bits (which may even be the whole test) and smile at the judge.
It will be a 'benchmark' to judge future tests from e.g. 'last year we got this, but look at us now....!'
 

GemG

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Agree with what wkiwi said...

Plus there are lots of different ideas that you can take out your toolbox as you go..

Our older horse had only converted to dressage later in life after being a jack of all trades, but mostly jumping and had to learn a different way of going for his new late career, from that short, going nowhere bouncy, head up, let me at that fence canter to one that meant something.. No offence to either discipline.

I think the canter - trot over and over as described by above poster sounds good. I have heard before about doing it until it becomes rather boring for your horse, I appreciate this may take some time!

Once this part is working a bit, can you manage a bit of counter canter, do not worry at all about how pretty it is, or if head is all over, just to get her thinking differently about what canter means.

Simple Counter flexion in canter, slight shoulder in positioning in canter for a few strides on circle, then back again.

A scratch on the neck/wither area at same time as cantering with a gentle voice to aid any form of relaxation.

Once your getting somewhere, try moving up and down the gears in canter, although this may not work well early doors, but i found it useful. As long as you don't think about how messy it looked in the early days. I used to try and avoid things that made it look messy, when in fact I shouldn't be frightened of it all being untidy, you have to start somewhere and you will improve from the messy looking work if your not frightened to let it happen. Hope that makes sense.

Its all easier said than done when your on a fence seeking pogo stick! But our canter work was always the trickiest in a test, but it is very slowly improving. We never had head in the sky stuff, just that short, busy, bouncy canter that is nice when a couple of strides from a fence, but not so cool for school when you want to do some dressage. My pointers are hardly ground breaking, but thought I'd post as I feel your pain a bit! I'm sure there are some dressage divas on here that will be well placed to help!
 
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Golden_Match_II

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I bought a 14yo 138cms mare when I was 11 who had been produced to SJ then either been out of work due to lack of rider, or just used for tetrathlon (XC.) It took us a couple of months to get it together enough to not embarrass ourselves at dressage (we still did it anyway so she got used to it) but after roughly 6 months she was getting 65+% in both eventing and pure dressage.

Here are a few exercises I found useful:

Half halting in trot almost back to a walk (the horse will feel as though it wants to collapse into walk) and then allowing her forward again. It was the only time when she wasn't physically stronger than me so had to listen to my aids. I did this on a circle about 5 times each way before even thinking of going up to canter. This was recommended to me by my instructor. It builds up their hindquarters so they are physically able to balance themselves - often SJers trained by amateurs don't truly 'sit' they just go fast!

When in canter go onto a larger 20m circle and imagine leg-yielding (it doesn't matter if the horse doesn't truly leg yield) slowly onto a smaller 12-15m circle. This has the same effect as the above exercise in that it is hard work and will show where they are physically weak, meaning they have to listen to your aids. I would then allow her onto a larger circle, and do this a few times on each rein.

Both of these exercises also enable you to get your leg on properly, where a horse going very fast doesn't really allow you to do that!

Essentially, it sounds like your horse might actually have weak hindquarters, so lots of exercises steadying her and then allowing her into a working trot/canter will build up her strength and enable you to ride her. Do things in short bursts with lots of praise when it goes well, and lots of free-walk breaks to show that hard work and responsiveness is rewarded! If you feel happy to jump her then I wouldn't strictly say don't, just don't do it regularly and I'd recommend not doing it in your school at home, in case she anticipates jumping every time she goes in there.
 

fredflop

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If you think she needs to build up a bit of bum muscle, as per post above, what about pole work in trot, you can raise the poles and put them in all sorts of different patterns. A bounce grid of small jumps would also help with muscling, but may not be suitable.
 

sportsmansB

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Guys thank you all so much for your replies...

I definitely am the 'person who always wants to look tidy'- and am reluctant to mess it up a bit - my eventer friend is always telling me its ok to not be perfect at home as long as there is a bigger goal from the messyness- but I find it hard!!
She actually canters beautifully, not like a SJ really, but just once she has had enough of the lovely canter (ie once on each rein!!) cocks her jaw and either falls back into a hideous trot or grabs the bit and runs. I hadn't considered it would be a strength issue which was remiss of me- because she looks and feels great when things are good I forget that I am asking her to do different things to what she was used to. If I could work out videos I would post one but I don't think I can...

I will definitely do some pole work after this weekend and I do WANT to jump her as her jump is great and she is super honest- I was just hoping to be a bit more consistent at the not running away with head to the side first :) Raised poles will definitely help too thanks.
 

GemG

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I definitely am the 'person who always wants to look tidy'- and am reluctant to mess it up a bit - my eventer friend is always telling me its ok to not be perfect at home as long as there is a bigger goal from the messyness- but I find it hard!! .

Me exactly!...

My fab instructor has told me this often. "Stop trying to look pretty and let it all happen, warts and all or you will not be able to progress and develop... ". That's what she tells me and she is so completely right!
 

FfionWinnie

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Definitely think you have to tackle it head on rather than avoid it. Lots of cantering and lessons with a really good SJ coach will help. Good luck with your test. She sounds really good fun!
 

Golden_Match_II

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I think they really do show weakness behind by falling into/leaning on your hands, so definitely worth considering. And re: looking pretty - everyone has to show their working, you don't just get the correct answer straight away! Don't worry about it, go out and enjoy her and have lots of lessons and you'll be fine. And don't feel bad about jumping her - it'll probably be a bit of fun for her after all the flatwork :)
 

sportsmansB

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I am actually looking forward to giving her a jump next week. I have been trying so hard to mix it up a bit for her so she doesn't get bored- hacking, cantering on the gallops, schooling on the gallops and in the field, etc She is such a sweetie.

Of course you guys are always right and I need to 'rough it up a bit' as probably at the moment she is confused and still hyper sensitive. She is genuinely the nicest horse to ride- and I have been lucky enough to ride some nice dressage and event horses competing at high levels- but she gives such an amazing feel and a generosity of spirit and is an all round lady and I think I have been backing off from upsetting her, even though its for the best!!
Will keep you posted on how Saturday goes- though they lost my entry and hadn't given me a time, until; I queried it. I started to see it as some sort of an omen- and then I gave myself a shake!!!
 

only_me

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Need some pics of horse ;)

But what about jumping round a course of jumps in trot, then canter then trot?
She mightn't realise that you can jump from a trot, so is probably getting confused in flatwork.
If she loves jumping then she might be more willing to trot?
Just an idea, may be worth trying :)


Looking forward to seeing you out eventing/dressage again :)
 

sportsmansB

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Aw thanks only_me - looking forward to seeing you and Billy blasting past the scoring box again soon too!!

Funny enough she will trot around a course of fences. I will try next week with trot then canter then trot round a course and maybe relating the going slow again to something she understands will help - thanks!
She is a bit of a conundrum- I think a less lovely-temperament horse would have gone more mental than her with the kind of riding she has had- she is stuck between her natural niceness and her memories of schooling for the last 3 years!
 
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