Returning a mis-sold or unsuitable horse.

[poiuytrewq]

I’ve just been reading a thing on fb about a horse who was purchased, in this case from a dealer unseen.
Most of the replies are stating that you have 30 days to return any horse to the seller (sounds like any seller- surely not private) for a full refund.
Is that correct? If so why are we reading so many times about people fighting to get money back or landing up stuck with horses who has issues they weren’t expecting or can’t deal with?
Never really having been in this situation (came very close once!) it’s not one I’ve looked into but was surprised it’s that easy to return a horse. I’m assuming bits not “that easy”

 

[ycbm]

The law allows you to return to a dealer, which doesn't include a dealer taking commission from a private seller to sell on their behalf. This catches out a lot of people, the dealer must own the horse for that law to automatically apply.

But what the law allows you to do is not always easy. If the dealer refuses to take the horse back, or refuses to refund you, you are then into the stress and cost of suing them to force the issue. And even then they can simply ignore a judgement made against them, and (in my friend's case) bankrupt themselves so they don't have to pay. So most people fight shy of that route, though if the horse cost under the limit for small claims (was £10k, might be higher now), then small claims is both cheap and easy.

The other issue is 30 days is not long enough to know if you have been missold or a horse is simply unsettled and many people miss the 30 days because of that.

 

[Wishfilly]

IANAL caveat.

The law is different for dealers and private sellers.

For dealers, you have the right to return within 30 days assuming the horse is not "of sufficient quality"- this is the same as if you bought a dress from a shop and the zip broke, or it fell apart in the washing machine on the first wash etc. Or if you bought a car from a dealer and it broke down the first time you tried to drive it.

However, there are some issues with this:

1) If you, say, bought a car then crashed it within 30 days, you don't have a right of return (obviously). This is the same with horses. If the dealer believes you have "broken" the horse in some way, they can argue the toss. This can come up with veterinary issues, as the dealer may say it is a new issue and caused in your care (particularly if you had a vetting, ironically).

2) You have to prove someone is a dealer, or a business seller. This is not always straightforward. People used to say anyone who sold over 3 horses in a year was defined as a dealer, but this is not law AFIAK. A riding school that sells one horse a year is more likely to be considered a business seller in law (because their business is horses) than a private family with, say 7 horses, who happened to sell 3 in the last 12 months. A lot of dealers will pretend they are not and hide behind 3rd parties and proxies, and it all gets very complicated.

3) This doesn't apply to sales livery, as the dealer is the agent only- this can get very complicated.

4) Lots of dealers either don't know, or claim ignorance of the law, still. So, if you have a horse, you want to return it, and the dealer says no- what do you do? You can go down the legal route, which lots of people don't feel confident to do, and legal advice can be expensive- and it takes time, during which time you a) may become attached to the horse and b) have to ensure the horse doesn't come to any sort of harm, which as we know is not easy! Lots of people also worry about the fates of these horses if they return them to a dealer. (It's also worth bearing in mind the limit for small claims is £10,000- as horses start to sell for more than this, the legal side of returning them gets more difficult for buyers).

For private sellers, you have to prove misrepresentation, which can be very difficult.

But ultimately, it's often a practical issue. If the dealer refuses to take the horse back and issue a refund, how many people are hard hearted enough to dump the horse at their gates and then take them to court?

 

[Orangehorse]

Dealers will also say that they do not have the money as they have just bought more horses.
They delay and delay, so you get fond of the animal and then don't want to return it as you fear for its future.
Some just flatly refuse to have it back (see the thread about the oversize pony) and know that it is stressful and costly and long winded to take legal action.

 

[ycbm]

My current understanding, not being a lawyer, is that a horse sale is now defined as a business sale if the intention on purchase of the horse was to sell it at some time in the future.

So everyone who buys one "project horse" needs to be aware of that.
.

 

[Wishfilly]

My current understanding, not being a lawyer, is that a horse sale is now defined as a business sale if the intention on purchase of the horse was to sell it at some time in the future.

So everyone who buys one "project horse" needs to be aware of that.
.

I think it's a little more complex than that- because that could include anyone who bought a pony for a child intending to sell it when the child had outgrown it. And I don't think they'd be considered a business seller legally.

As far as I'm aware, whether or not someone is a business seller is still considered on a case by case basis by the court, but they would consider factors such as when the horse was bought, the intention of buying the horse, and if the seller had made a profit (this could all be very difficult to prove). Someone regularly buying horses, selling them a short time later and making money on the sale (even if it might only be one or two horses a year) would probably be considered a business seller in the eyes of the law, and it is something people need to be aware of if they are selling a horse.

Probably the key thing is for people to be careful about what they post on social media, as this could be used against them.

 

[ycbm]

It's a lot more complex than anyone is going to be able to explain on a forum ?

 

[Wishfilly]

It's a lot more complex than anyone is going to be able to explain on a forum ?

Yes, valid!

 

[Bernster]

Yep, in my case the dealer had a 30 day return/exchange but when I tried to do that, they said they had no room for him. It was a good few years back. Instead of wrangling with them, as I could tell they were going to be tricky, I sold him on (slight loss of money due to selling agent fee and livery) and he did really well in his new home.

 

[SEL]

I think dealers can hide behind apparently private sellers too.

There's a post on FB about a Belgian draft which sadly had to be PTS and before various names were redacted it seemed like it was brought privately but actually on behalf of a known 'dodgy dealer' which only came to light after purchase.