Returning Rescue - The right thing to do? (sorry long post)

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Leam1307

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Hi there im looking for abit of advice here.

I got a 5month old crossbreed from Romania about 4 weeks ago. He lived in a housing rubbish tip although there was someone who took him inside in cold weather and fed him sometimes.

The first few weeks have been good although i know this was him settling in, he has learned how to walk on the lead, is almost house trained and ignored my 3 cats. This last week though has been very stressful. He started off lunging and snarling at me when i was eating my dinner one night and i was advised to keep him out the room when eating, which we are doing. Now though he has snarled and lunged at my OH and mother (who comes during the day to walk him) for no apparent reason. He has also been hanging off my arm twice now and this morning when i put his lead on he growled and grabbed hold of my scarf which then pulled tight. i didnt want to tell him off since he was so close to my face. When we do tell him off we just say "no" or "enough" firmly and then try to show him the correct behaviour.

I spoke to the rescue this morning and they seem to think i should dominate him and show him im boss (i dont like this type of training) and im feeling very out of my depth. i have always had dogs from small puppies and have trained the biting behaviour from a small age. Now though this boy has adult teeth and adult strength and it bl**dy hurts when he bites never mind it being scary. My mum and OH seem to think he is just being a puppy but they are not the ones who have been bitten. im getting very scared of doing things with him or even sitting in the same room as him as i feel i have to be constantly on alert incase he suddenly bites.

There has been no reason for this behaviour that i can determin, he was checked over at the vets just last week and got a clean bill of health. He does not appear to be resource guarding either as he will willingly give up toys or food when asked to "leave it"

He is also VERY reactive to other dogs on the lead and has started chasing and jumping on my cats too.

I dont know what to do, i dont think i will ever trust him 100% and thats not why i got a dog in the first place. I think i want to return him to the rescue but im not sure how to as i feel very guilty in admiting that i cant cope with this behaviour and that it is scaring me. When i mention it to my OH and mum they both say im just being silly. Im getting very upset as i feel they are not taking this serious and that its going to take me being seriously bitten before they admit it. Not sure what sort of response im looking for just needed to rant abit. Would i be doing the wrong thing by handing him back? i think he might be happier with someone who is more experienced.
 
If you dont think you can work through his issues with the help of trainers/behaviourists/ your family then yes returning him is the right thing to do- however you have not had him very long, and he needs to be taught the rules of your household- he does not automatically know how to behave in a domestic situation.

Mine did the whole adult mouthing thing when we got him- also a rescue- also 25kg's of teeth- is also reactive to other dogs, and luckily i dont have cats!!!!! it is possible to work through it- but you have to want to and have the support of those also dealing with the dog or it simply wont work! I'd personally give him a bit longer and look into a trainer.

Good luck whatever you decide. :)
 
Putting aside my thoughts on rescuing from eastern Europe!!!!

He's a street dog for one. Taken off the street in Romania, put on a boat, put in a house in England, going to be a bit of a culture shock, yes?

You have no idea of his background, but I guess he learned how to survive in the big bad world on his own and he had no real manners put on him at the appropriate time. He's learned to have to fight for his food and look all big and scary to protect himself.

For two, you are scared of him.

For three, whenever he behaves the way he does, you stop doing the things he doesn't want you to do. He's acting like a toddler throwing a tantrum. You don't know what's gone on in his past or what he might perceive as a threat or not - you might think you were just bending down to put his lead on, he might have some other association from when he was younger. He might not like people bending over him, he might not like pressure on the neck or back from a collar or harness.

You've only had him a month.

I wouldn't say dominate him, I would say, don't be scared of him and don't let him throw his weight around. You wouldn't accept a toddler behaving this way, so don't let a puppy.

You are going to have to be firm and you are going to have to be consistent. I think your first port of call should be a trainer or behaviourist, not one who is going to bribe the dog and never apply any sort of pressure to it whatsoever, but one who will teach you how to be that firm, consistent person.

You also need to start redirecting his biting onto something else like a ball or a tug toy or something, you are not a chew toy.

Showing him who is the boss does not mean battering him, but most dogs don't like ambiguity and leadership (even if that means being a bit firmer and applying more pressure) is actually better than leaving the dog to make his own decisions - cause that isn't really working out for you right now.
 
I have looked into a trainer but all the ones near me are booked until Feb or stop over xmas. he is not just mouthing, he did this when he first came and he still does and its alot more gentle. This is outright growling, snarling and launching onto my arm or at my face. I understand that it has only been a short period of time, thats why i feel so guilty, but it is mainly myself who looks after him and im scared to be in the same room as him just now.

The rescue said he was a lovely friendly dog who would make a great family pet, and i think he will, but i dont have the experience on how to deal with this. or the confidence to even start. They suggested i grab a hold of his scruff and shake him when he goes to bite... i for one do not want to get that close when he is in the mood to bite. thats just asking for trouble im sure.

i just dont know how to say to the rescue or to my family that ive made a mistake. also i am worried OH will be angry as it cost quite abit of money to bring him over and (quite rightly) we wont get it back.
 
I agree scruffing might be a risky business if you don't know what you are doing but at the moment he is training you to keep away from him and it is working. He knows you are scared of him. Does he continue to act in the same way with your OH and Mum?

TBH if you think the behaviour is really extreme I would look at putting him to sleep rather than passing the issue on. As mentioned you have no idea of his background or his genetics, out of interest have you idea what breed or mix of breeds he might be?
 
It is in our contract that we are to hand him back if we have any issues and they will assess what is to be done.

We know he is a gsd x but think there is some Collie/husky/lab in there too.

He does snarl and lung at my OH and mum but they smack him on the nose or shout at him when he does this, and tbh it usually makes him lunge again, after 3 or 4 times he will go lie down like nothing has happened.

Someone on another forum suggested he is just trying to get me to play but at the end of the day this is not a form of play i am comfortable with if he is. to date he hasnt drawn any blood, more out of me having a jacket on both times rather than him not wanting to do harm.

Im just not sure what is the right thing to do, i mean we could continue with the trainign and see if that helps but at what point do you decide that enough is enough. i really dont want to end up getting stitches before OH realises it was serious. I also dont want to make things worse if im not sure what im doing.
 
Enough is not enough if you've only had him a month - my young dog is two in January and he is STILL very pushy and I know both his parents, exactly where he came from, I've had him from 14 weeks, I train him EVERY day and we go to a training session once a week. I have to be on top of him all the time. Even things like going through a door before him, not letting him break a sit, not letting him snatch food out of my hand.

If you think it is rough play then, like I say, invest in a tuggie or a good strong ball on a rope and engage him with it.

Put a light house line on his collar so that you are not always going for his collar as a lot of dogs find this intimidating. If he is messing about, don't shout or hit or yell, say nothing, just firmly take the line and put him out of the room. If he's been feral and has been part of a pack, he will know exactly what isolation means.
 
A house line would be my advice too.

Really, you need someone to come out and see what is happening so they can assess the interaction between you both - it's a question of whether or not you feel you can wait until someone is free to do this. A month is no time at all for any rescue dog to fit in, let alone one from such a radically different background as a Romanian street dog. He will not have had an easy time out there and although someone may have been feeding him that does not mean that he will view all human beings as things to welcome - he may well be afraid of you and getting in there first. Or he may be being bolshy. Or he may just not understand that this is not how you play with fragile humans. Without seeing him, we can't say for sure.
 
OP, I know the situation is not ideal, but I think if he actually meant to bite you and cause you harm, he would have done so by now, they're not stupid, so I would take a little comfort in that. But try not to act like 'prey'.

However, re what the rescue have said - do you think this street dog, with unknown background and experiences, would make a nice family pet? Would you be happy if he were to be rehomed to a home with small children?
 
As others have said, this is a street dog where you have no idea of his experiences. what he will be adept it though is understanding human body language ie nice person to give me food, nasty person who will kick me, person who is scared of the street dogs. you are obviously person number 3 and he is treating you accordingly. He must be so confused, you have obviously done this with the best intentions but this is so alien to him ,he doesn't understand the language or how to live in a house. 3 out of the 4 breeds you mention are all dominant type dogs and not the easiest breeds to deal with, even if they are brought up in a domestic setting. You really need to get someone who knows what they are doing, can someone from the rescue come and give you some help. surely they can't rehome these dogs and then offer no support, that would be totally irresponsible. It must be a common problem and there must be plenty other problems also. did they bring the dog over specifically for you or did they bring him and you saw him advertised?

A month is no time at all for a dog with his background to readjust.
I hope you manage to sort something.
 
I agree that a month is not long for a rescue dog to settle in but if you are scared to be around him then I'm afraid I think you probably already know the answer to your question. If the rescue are not able to help with home training or a behaviourist then I think you are quite right to ask them to take him back. There is no shame in admitting that he is not right for you or is too much for you to handle just now. The reality is that if he does bite you and cause serious damage then his options for further rehoming are seriously damaged too. A rescue shelter can not or should not pass on a dog that has bitten. Better to call it a day now and hope that he can find a home with further training. I was recently bitten by the yard collie, he gave me no warning and just came at me and didn't stop. I'm a veterinary nurse so it's not like I'm not confident and experienced around dogs. Some dogs just have it in them and there may be nothing you personally can do to help him through. Give some one else a chance to turn him around and don' feel guilty about it. Ask your OH how he would feel if the dog bites you and you need hospital treatment, time off work etc, also the dog will almost definetly be PTS if this happens, no second chances. Please try not to put yourself in any danger without further help.
 
This dog is only 5months old and yet he is too much for you, you dont sound very experienced and to be honest I think you should give him back to the rescue. You probabley took him on for all the right reasons but I think the rescue have let you down, they should take him back and get him properly assessed and source an experienced home who could cope with a dog from this type of background.
 
The rescue should support you in this. I volunteer for one and their offer of support is open-ended. I hope the rescue did a home visit first and gave you lots of tips.
I have to agree with ^^(raised eyebrows) re rescuing from E Europe as there are an awful lot of dogs in this country available for rescue. Doing this could inadvertently create a puppy market in a poor country if the locals figure they can make a bob or two. I applaud your kind-heartedness in this - I am not criticising you, but your story suggests the rescue organisation is not providing you with the help you need.
 
Where are you? If your struggling to find a good behaviourist maybe one of us might know someone close to you that could at least help you out.

I have to say if you think you have bitten off more than you can chew its time for a rethink. Have to say if it were me the ****** would be out and training to tire him out and to get some bonding done. Are you doing any training courses at the moment?? If not book them doesn't matter what it is even if its not particularly breed specific (I still recommend gundog work for all breeds purely because it helps socialing and behaviour outside the classroom).
 
Weeeell We too have just taken on a five month rescue pup. History unknown, was abandoned about eight weeks before ending up in the rescue kennels. Her early formative weeks are a mystery and her recent history involves kennels without natural daylight and about twenty minutes out of 24 hours out of her cage.

BUT she has come to our pack who KNOW how the hierarchy works in our house and she is slotting in. She has literally just tried to demonstrate her dominance over my adolescent male JRT and he looked directly at me (to see how to react?) I put her away from the pack (we have four dogs inc her) so nothing happened beyond her growl at him.

I have no doubt she will try it again and I suspect your pup is doing the same but seeing you as an 'equal' in the pack rather than leader and he has no others to copy either (my pup sees my dogs move out my space, sit when I come in, wait behind me through doors etc etc.)

However - I suspect my greyhound cross lab has a temperament completely different to yours and she has given me not one ounce of concern around the human members of my family including my four year old son.

BUT IF she did demonstrate behaviours that concerned me she would be gone I am afraid as, although it has only been weeks for us too I could not take the risk with my child and indeed the rescue I took her from agreed that - although we are pretty sure she is not going to be a problem, return is preferable to risk to my son.

I think in your case unless you can change your fear feelings you may be better giving the dog the opportunity to be in an experienced home. And by that I mean one more experienced with dogs with 'history'.

If your family knows you are seriously concerned then they will surely understand. At the end of the day too, PTS is not the worse scenario for a street dog either and with the best will in the world we cannot all be in a position to spend significant money and time on a dog that may be too broken.

ETA I agree with the gun dog training idea. Will be doing this with mine in the spring although I worry she has inherited the brains of the greyhound and stomach of lab. Doesn't know whether to eat or run.
 
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Thank you all so much for the replies.

Ok some history. I am experience with dogs in that i have had them all my life growing up, but we have always gotten them as 8wk old pups and have started basic training and bite inhabitation immediately. I didnt realise it would be so different with a 5 month old, figured i would just train the same as i did with the pups :rolleyes:

The dog was abandend in the rubbish tip at 2weeks of age with his 5 siblings, only he has survived. The rescue spotted him at 4 months old and took him to one of their colleagues shelters where he stayed for a month before i saw him, i then paid for him to be brought over. We could not rescue from the UK because as soon as i mentioned either we had cats or we worked full time i was hung up on or given abuse about being cruel to have a dog. They UK rescues did not even let me tell them that i had a dog walker lined up (that being my mum so wasnt likely to be let down) The conditions in Romanian rescues are by far worse than anything in the UK. if the dog wardens catch a dog then it is pts and not humanely. they use petrol injections to the heart, set them on fire in the street, or sometimes chain them to the back of their vans and then drive off. I felt one of these dogs required more help than a UK rescue.

The rescue has put me in touch with their behaviourist but she is based in London (im in Scotland) so has only been able to give me some tips on how to distract him if he looks like he is about to have a go. He has actually bitten me twice now but as ive had a jacket on each time i have just ended up with some nasty bruising.

Basically i have to be more firm with him without actually being dominating. Using a lower tone of voice, and reinforce some of the basics we have been working on such as making him sit and wait for his dinner, "look at me" commands and "leave it".

I had looked out a few names of trainers in my area but the one i liked best is full until Feb, another is shut over xmas and doesnt allow unsocialised dogs in the class (how are you meant to socialise a dog if you cant take it to classes is beyond me, i thought thats what they were for?!?) and the last one close enough well.. they sound like the "you must be pack leader" people which im not interested in.
 
Look OP, you're either going to have to toughen up and show some leadership (again, it doesn't mean battering him) or lose the dog. He is using you as a chew toy. Giving you advice to scruff him over the phone is daft and I can't say for certain without seeing him, but it sounds like using the softly softly approach isn't working for him. That doesn't mean kick him, it means RULES.

A dog who knows where they are in the structure is a happier one, dogs who are forced into leadership roles because of weak handling (I know, I was that weak handler) are generally the ones who are unhappy and misbehave.

My trainer is always telling us, you get the behaviour you reward/reinforce - you're reinforcing that when he acts like that, you go away and leave him alone. Reinforce the behaviour you WANT.
 
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I applaud anyone helping animals in need, but I do not agree with bringing dogs into this country when they are thousands of dogs being pts after a week in the pound here. And many more who have been in rescue for months. The money it costs to help one dog in another country could help 10 here!

You do need to be your dogs leader. Your dog needs to look to you for guidance and to know from you what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. I do not dominate any of my dogs, but they have to know who is in charge and that it is not them.
 
Being leader doesn't have to mean marching around beating your chest, yelling 'I am the LEADER! Raaah! Fear me, I am MIGHTY!' :D It is about being calm and projecting confidence at all times. It is more about being someone who you want to follow, rather than someone you have to follow - someone who sets clear boundaries then reinforces them consistently, fairly and proportionately. :)
 
Leam1307 said:
Thank you all so much for the replies.

O


The dog was abandend in the rubbish tip at 2weeks of age with his 5 siblings, only he has survived. The rescue spotted him at 4 months old and took him to one of their colleagues shelters where he stayed for a month before i saw him, i then paid for him to be brought over. We could not rescue from the UK because as soon as i mentioned either we had cats or we worked full time i was hung up on or given abuse about being cruel to have a dog. They UK rescues did not even let me tell them that i had a dog walker lined up (that being my mum so wasnt likely to be let down) The conditions in Romanian rescues are by far worse than anything in the UK. if the dog wardens catch a dog then it is pts and not humanely. they use petrol injections to the heart, set them on fire in the street, or sometimes chain them to the back of their vans and then drive off. I felt one of these dogs required more help than a UK rescue.

The rescue has put me in touch with their behaviourist but she is based in London (im in Scotland) so has only been able to give me some tips on how to distract him if he looks like he is about to have a go. He has actually bitten me twice now but as ive had a jacket on each time i have just ended up with some nasty bruising.
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Sorry but you appear to have been misinformed. Why would a Romanian Dog Warden "waste" petrol to PTS a dog when a hammer is quicker & cheaper? They do not set them on fire in the street nor do they drag them behind vehicles -I have no doubt that this has happened to dogs as thugs exist the world over but this is selling talk to encourage you to pay up.
Did you try your local pound? They would PTS dogs most weeks. Breed rescues? A dog walker is acceptable to most organisations and none bar cat owners from taking a dog but you may have to wait longer.

You need to toughen up. Be stern, not hard, and let the pup know what is & isn't acceptable. If you can't do this hand him straight back to the rescue or talk to them and get him euthanised as his chances for rehoming are virtually nil.

Why would someone take on a large pup that has been allowed to do his own thing and has already bitten? -you just admitted it!
 
This pup would have had to fight for every scrap of food,attack it`s siblings to gain their portion ..or die.He is already top dog to you at only baby age,it is far more difficult to turn that around than someone starting anew.He has already sorted out HIS boundaries,and will go on pushing for more.In my opnion you should return this feral dog before you really get hurt<for feral is what he is. There are many many perfectly nice poundies on Death Row who are charming,just no longer flavour of the month with their scummy ex owners,please rehome one of those
 
I didn't realise he was only 5 months! You do have to show him you are the leader. there is nothing wrong with that. It doens't mean you need to beat him. there are various strategies you can use. where in scotland are you, is the rescue up here too?
 
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Some very good points from other posters.

Probably going off topic but I'm really saddened that some elements of the pro-positive propaganda machine are now brainwashing the average pet owner into thinking that setting boundaries and showing leadership = dog abuse. And then the same people wonder why their dogs, particularly those who are GENETICALLY, never mind environmentally, inclined to gamble with what they can get away with, are acting up.

I'll say this again...there are very few dogs strong enough to take the pressure of being in charge. Dogs who are up one minute, down the next, generally end up confused and frustrated and they take it out on the person they see to be acting 'unfairly' towards them, the source of the confusion, you can do this, oh, now you can. You can't go there, oh, now you can. That's generally us.

Re the jacket thing - a jacket won't stop a dog that really wants to cause you harm and inflict a bite that will really stop you in your tracks. If you think that is going to happen, then that is what probably will happen if you keep giving out those vibes.

I know dogs that have bent the metal bite bar inside a padded hessian sleeve.

I've had bruising on my arm from a dog who I know perfectly well can bite hard, but he was using the only tool he had, his mouth, to try to stop me doing what he didn't want me to do. I didn't. I got a purple arm, he got a valuable lesson, and it's not happened since.
 
I agree you sound very out of your depth, there is no comparison with having dogs from 8 weeks old and having a dog with serious behavioural issues thats semi feral from another country at 5 months old.
The rescue sound shocking and quite frankly it boils my blood these dogs are coming in droves (lots of money changing hands) and them being a fashion accessory for most (the new in thing) OP how many rescues did you try? we for one rehome to working homes, im in the process of homing a working cocker to a lady who works full time, she has proven she can walk him before and after work and has given details for her dog walker and she has cats!.....she has owned working cockers all her life (to me this kind of home is more important) over someone who works part time but never owned a working cocker (anyway) thats just an example.
There are plenty of other places you could have gotten a dog inc the local dog pounds (they dont home check) or ask any questions re where the dog goes.
You need a good behaviourist and may as you suggest have to wait (in the meantime the lack of support from the rescue) is hideous esp given the back ground of these dogs (seems like no back up plan is in place) for the poor dogs other than the only thought of (transport box/aeroplane and money) I do belive as said by s4sugar we are creating a puppy farm type market now for these dogs, money would be better spent building neutering clinics and much needed treatment/getting vets out there and educating people within the country in regard to these dogs or humane put to sleep for all the street dogs NOT importing them here, there and everywhere, I forsee in a few years our pounds will be packed with foreign rescue dogs (how stressful) for the dog.

Sorry semi rant....imo you cannot get information from a forum for such behaviour, good luck finding a behaviourist or getting help from the supposed rescue.

Ps I had a couple come to me last week for a dog (they reserved a foreign dog) it attacked their dog really bad upon meet (even though being told it was fine with dogs) and when the couple said it was not the dog for them and had issues with the "return" agreement the woman went ballistic "saying she has no where to put the dog now":confused: (horrifying)
 
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Leam1307 said:
. they sound like the "you must be pack leader" people which im not interested in.
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Out of interest, why don't you want to be the pack leader? If you're not pack leader, he is, and is this a good thing when you're already scared of him??

Aside from all the rescue elements, he is a young dog, a young big dog. I worked as a nanny in Paris for a family that had a young lab. He used to bite, leap about, and terrorise the young teenage daughter. He hadn't had any proper training. They went to the caribbean for a month over Xmas and I walked him for miles every day, and he got a good smack and growl if he went to bite, and he was a different pup. They need boundaries and help.

I feel very sorry for you, you are obviously frightened and your heart was in the right place, but you do need to try a bit and not be so picky about where you get help from. Your mum and OH don't seem worried, so he isn't that scary. Could they do more of the looking after him until you have had some training with him and feel more confident?
 
OP, one more thing before I hit the hay because this has been bugging me tonight.

Can you please, please as honestly as you can, answer, do you think:

Is he too damaged, is his behaviour too extreme to overcome, do you genuinely think he is a danger and a liability and will seriously injure you or someone else?

Or do you think he is just a very young dog with a rough start and no direction whatsoever who has undergone a traumatic journey and is now living in a situation where he is out of sorts, a fish out of water, confused and pushing his luck and you are being a bit wet and as mentioned, only want to deal with it in a certain way? Which MAY NOT suit the dog?

Once you have answered that question to yourself, honestly, take it from there.
Either sort him out yourself - it has to be YOU who does the sorting, the trainer will teach YOU, not the dog and it WILL take a lot of time and effort - or send him back (I wouldn't, personally), or send him to the big kennel in the sky.
 
s4sugar said:
Sorry but you appear to have been misinformed. Why would a Romanian Dog Warden "waste" petrol to PTS a dog when a hammer is quicker & cheaper? They do not set them on fire in the street nor do they drag them behind vehicles -I have no doubt that this has happened to dogs as thugs exist the world over but this is selling talk to encourage you to pay up.

Did you try your local pound? They would PTS dogs most weeks. Breed rescues? A dog walker is acceptable to most organisations and none bar cat owners from taking a dog but you may have to wait longer.
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Yes they do do this, i have seen it myself when i satyed in Romania for 2 years, the authorities were not interested when i reported it, i was told their country their rules! And yes i tried our local pound, it has a no kill policy and will rehome to other rescues or foster the dogs themselves if they have space. They did not have any dogs that were friendly with cats at the time. we tried a few with the owners cat and they were not suitable.
 
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