Returning Rescue - The right thing to do? (sorry long post)

CAYLA said:
I agree you sound very out of your depth, there is no comparison with having dogs from 8 weeks old and having a dog with serious behavioural issues thats semi feral from another country at 5 months old.
The rescue sound shocking and quite frankly it boils my blood these dogs are coming in droves (lots of money changing hands) and them being a fashion accessory for most (the new in thing) Can you tell me in what way are they fashion accessories? Just because they are fom another country does not mean they do not require help. the UK has lots of rescues that quite frankly are like a palace to what these dogs are living in

OP how many rescues did you try? I believe i tried 18, either they didnt rehome with cats, wouldnt rehome with us working, didnt rehome in our area, our garden was too small (even though the dog is never in the garden) the list is endlesswe for one rehome to working homes, im in the process of homing a working cocker to a lady who works full time, she has proven she can walk him before and after work and has given details for her dog walker and she has cats!.....she has owned working cockers all her life (to me this kind of home is more important) over someone who works part time but never owned a working cocker (anyway) thats just an example.
There are plenty of other places you could have gotten a dog inc the local dog pounds (they dont home check) or ask any questions re where the dog goes. Our dog pound does do home checks, but did not have any dogs that were suitable with cats, they usually hand the dogs over to DT or RSPCA.
You need a good behaviourist and may as you suggest have to wait (in the meantime the lack of support from the rescue) is hideous esp given the back ground of these dogs Did you not read the part where i said they had put me in touch with their behaviourist? how does that equate as hideous?(seems like no back up plan is in place) for the poor dogs other than the only thought of (transport box/aeroplane and money) I do belive as said by s4sugar we are creating a puppy farm type market now for these dogs, money would be better spent building neutering clinics This is done, the rescue currently has contracts with 3 vets in romania who catch neuter and release the dogs, they also fund a few in thailand tooand much needed treatment/getting vets out there and educating people within the country in regard to these dogs or humane put to sleep for all the street dogs NOT importing them here, there and everywhere, I forsee in a few years our pounds will be packed with foreign rescue dogs (how stressful) for the dog.

Sorry semi rant....imo you cannot get information from a forum for such behaviour, good luck finding a behaviourist or getting help from the supposed rescue.
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Too many points to cover there so see the bold comments
 
Honey08 said:
Out of interest, why don't you want to be the pack leader? If you're not pack leader, he is, and is this a good thing when you're already scared of him??
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I dont mind being leader in the respect of setting boundaries etc. but the training place was talking pack leader as in CM, with choke chains, spray collars and shock collars. That is how most people here seem to think of by "pack leader" and that is what i meant i do not like.
 
CaveCanem said:
OP, one more thing before I hit the hay because this has been bugging me tonight.

Can you please, please as honestly as you can, answer, do you think:

Is he too damaged, is his behaviour too extreme to overcome, do you genuinely think he is a danger and a liability and will seriously injure you or someone else?

Or do you think he is just a very young dog with a rough start and no direction whatsoever who has undergone a traumatic journey and is now living in a situation where he is out of sorts, a fish out of water, confused and pushing his luck and you are being a bit wet and as mentioned, only want to deal with it in a certain way? Which MAY NOT suit the dog?

Once you have answered that question to yourself, honestly, take it from there.
Either sort him out yourself - it has to be YOU who does the sorting, the trainer will teach YOU, not the dog and it WILL take a lot of time and effort - or send him back (I wouldn't, personally), or send him to the big kennel in the sky.
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I feel he is a very young dog who would benefit from someone who has more experiance of these behavioural issues. I in no way think he is doing this out of nastiness, i think it is obviously lack of training and having grown up doing his own thing. I think putting him to sleep is very extreme and is not something i would consider even if i was allowed to.
 
Give him back to the rescue, you are clearly frightened of him and it will never work while you feel this way.

Try a breed rescue they are far more lenient than the RSPCA,Dogs Trut etc.
 
Still not in bed :p

All of our dogs have worn flat link choke chains (apart from anything, they don't get wrecked when they go in the sea, it doesn't matter if they get encrusted with mud, they never, ever break, you can make them as long or short or tight or loose as you want, you can use them like a normal flat collar and only bring the live ring into play when you need it etc etc) and I have managed not to break a dog yet.

In fact, when my dog hears his chain jingling, he gets wound up because he knows it is associated with: food, work, play. It has good associations.
He might get a 'pop' on it very occasionally, but when the 'pop' is responded to with focus/the right behaviour, the pressure is off and he *immediately* gets a reward - negative, positive, positive - for some dogs there has to be SOME consequence for undesirable behaviour before you reinforce the behaviour you want.

Used intelligently, some of the tools people baulk at, can actually be used alongside positive methods. But hey, that's what I mean by the propaganda machine. But maybe that's a different subject for a different thread.

Definitely going to bed now.
 
IMO a fashion accessory like the mass buying of designer x breeds (its the new cool) for some people to say "I have a foreign rescue dog on order/reserve".

Hideous (because their behaviourst is in LONDON, where did you get this dog surely there is someone with experience in the rescue closer that should have by now visited your home, if I had that call I would be very concerned and would have been out to you as priority to witness the behaviour myself. These dogs will need far more post home support than a normal rescue it should be taken into consideration.

Indeed they need help (as I said) in the way of them remaining in their own country of origin and help going to them (clinics/neutering) humane put to sleeps by a vet.

I have to say passing this dog and his behaviour on is not all you may dream it to be, you say he just needs someone more experienced, in reality there are dogs out there homeless and desperate in their thousands who are free of behavioural issues, so if the rescue where indeed very truthful about his behaviour in your home (as they should be), I can't see anyone else wanting to take him on) I personally would keep the dog and work through anything and deal with the behaviour with professional help (esp if I went so far as to reserved it from a foreign country) I would think worst case scenario is he will end up in a kennel for a very long time or pts. Good luck which ever you decide.

Maybe your mam and OH are right and you are just scared stiff of dealing with him now, but you need an assessment asap from the rescue themselves, I take it the London behaviourist will come and visit eventually as all behaviour cannot be dealt with over the phone can you hang in till then and impliment some rules, like the (out when eating) as you are and using a slip lead for easy handling if you are affraid to get bitten in the house, did you try a few training classes to see if any would accept you in regard to him being socilaised with other dogs or did they all say no?
 
There is a behaviourist based in Stirlingshire called Roddy Kirk. He has trained with Cesar Millan and specializes in powerful breeds, aggression, and helping people to be calm and assertive. I have never met him, but he has been recommended on a lot of forums by owners who had similar problems with their dogs. His site can be found here.

I really hope this helps and that you and your dog can overcome your issues. Remain positive and please don't give up on him as there is help out there. :)
 
The rescue is also based in London so it makes sense that their behaviourist is too. She has given me some things to work on, more reinforcing basics at the moment like wait and stay and look at me for when i think he is going to have a go, this way i can redirect his attention. I will see how i get on with these and if there is no improvement i will ask the behaviourist if she recommends anyone in this area.

I did try breed rescues, small rescues, the large ones and tbh until they change their policies and are abit more accommodating then they are going to get people going elsewhere to rescue. At the end of the day a rescue is a rescue and it shouldnt matter where it is, it is still a dog in need.

He is not really a large breed dog even though he has those mixes, he is only about the size of a cocker spaniel id say and doesnt have very big paws at all, my vet reckons he might grow another inch or two but definately not any more.
 
How can you possibly know that the dog was abandoned at 2 weeks if they didn't find him til 4 months? I find this situation staggering and the rescue should be named and shamed - perfect family pet? A dog who has had to fight his whole life for everything and anything? REALLY?

I know nothing about managing dogs like this but you either need to shape up, stop acting scared of him and teach him his place OR you need to get rid of him. Though I would be inclined to PTS pretty much regardless of what the rescue say. Poor sod.
 
Cedars said:
How can you possibly know that the dog was abandoned at 2 weeks if they didn't find him til 4 months? I find this situation staggering and the rescue should be named and shamed - perfect family pet? A dog who has had to fight his whole life for everything and anything? REALLY?

I know nothing about managing dogs like this but you either need to shape up, stop acting scared of him and teach him his place OR you need to get rid of him. Though I would be inclined to PTS pretty much regardless of what the rescue say. Poor sod.
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Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.
 
Leam1307 said:
Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.
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Actually, I don't think that's fair. You have had advice. You've been advised to use a houseline, advised on how to react to his tantrums, and advised to find help.The last part is the most important.

I am never sure of what people expect from forums really. You have to be able to see the dog yourself to advise properly - otherwise you could end up making things worse! For that reason any responsible trainer will only give the most general, bland advice on this kind of forum.

I wish you luck with this dog.
 
Wow, really? You've been advised to use a house line, you've been advised to use a toy to redirect him, you've been advised to remain calm and confident, you've been advised to isolate him, you've been advised to reinforce the behaviour you want, you've been reassured, you've been largely supported, any negative comments are out of concern for yourself and ire at the rescue.

Actually it sounds like you've had more positive advice here than the behaviourist over the phone or email or whatever.

I was trying to give you a friendly kick up the arse, like the many times I have been given a friendly kick up the arse and told to buck my ideas up, and guess what, I did, and it's helped me and my dogs immensely.

I personally didn't type any of the answers out for fun, I was trying to help you and your dog. You haven't actually responded to any of the advice that was given, just got increasingly defensive and saw everything as a personal attack.

A forum full of people you don't know is not going to fix your dog, they can give hints and tips but that's it, you're free to take them or leave them - I say free, because I know people who would charge you through the nose for some of the advice you've been given.

I get the feeling you wanted a pat on the back for wanting to return him, and because you haven't, you're stropping off.
 
Leam1307 said:
Please read posts carefully, there was a lady who took him in when it was cold and fed him, this is how they know he was abandend at 2weeks old and that he had 5 sibblings which did not survive.

I do find it rather funny to be honest, alot of people saying shape up and i need to be firmer or train such and such, but no positive comments on how to actually do these things, yous all seem very condesending on here and really the comments regarding pts is shocking and very disturbing that you are all so quick to say this.

I shall leave now i see this is not the type of forum i want to be involved with.
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How can anyone give specific advice without seeing the dog- we all said get a trainer/behaviourist- this is what you need. if you can not find one/ are not prepared to wait then send the dog back- but all you are doing is effectively passing on a dog with issues, who in rescue WILL NOT get the time/training it needs, thus could cause a problem for another family- hence the responsible thing to do is PTS- especially whilst there are 1000's of perfectly happy waggy dogs waiting for their forever homes who do not require months of rehab.

What you describe IS mouthing- biting, IMO, breaks the skin- I was bruised from wrist to elbow. For what its worth i stopped mine by screeching at him- like he had just ripped my arm off- not like you would to a puppy but like he had actually just nearly killed me (I only had to do this once!)- and leaving the room for 5 mins. Any other unwanted behaviour either I left the room, or he was escorted calmly and without a fight into another room until he had calmed. - he spent a lot of time in another room :rolleyes:

basic obeidence also helped- have a look at NILIFF training
http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

helped us too.

BUT the thing that helped the most was finding a secure field where the dog could run his paws off and be a dog...........
 
OP I have serious doubts about your genuiness, you have stated a few things which dont add up, pound dogs for example, you just go and pay the money and pick one up, they dont home check. Breed rescues are extremely flexible, every time someone suggests something you come up with an excuse why you cant do it. Other posters have asked where you are, they are not asking for your address just a general area so they can put you in touch with someone who can help but you have not answered, I find that strange, if it was me I would be only too happy to say if I thought it would help my situation.
 
OP from what I can see you have been offered quite a lot of advice. Tbh I think the rescue have been telling you fairy tales. You say he was abandoned at 2 weeks, and some one took him in when it was cold and fed him sometimes. I am sorry but a 2 week old pup would have to be fed and toileted every 4 hours or so otherwise no way would it survive. Also how do they know he is a GSD x if he was abandoned? I suspect someone is on a nice little earner charging people to rescue a puppy, he more than likely came over in the back of a van with several others all of whom had been paid for by well meaning folk like yourself. Did he have any vaccination records etc?

The title of this thread is Returning to Rescue - Right thing to do?, you have asked for opinions and those suggesting pts are giving their opinions. For what its worse I agree with them, I don't think you will ever be happy with this pup, you are not prepared to using even a choke/check chain to correct him, they arent instruments of torture you know, and if he is returned to the rescue he will more likely spend many months in kennels, pts is a far better option for him imho.
I know some rescues are ridiculously fussy, but there would be plenty out there who would home to someone in your circumstances, you just have to be patient. I wish you luck whatever you decide, but if you aren't prepared to give the pup the tough love he needs then I really think he is best being pts.
 
OP don't go off. people are trying to help. some are asking questions so they can possibly suggest something but need a bit more information. i asked where in scotland you are in case you are near me and i can do anything to help. This pup is only 5 months old, way young enough to be able to sort out reasonably quickly.
 
I am based in Fife Scotland, I have contacted the lady who runs the training class i wanted to join but that is full to see if she would consider doing some one on one training with us.

As it turns out, i have spoken again to the lady who took him in, in romania and her and her OH had trained him to "Smile" and Speak" this being bearing his teeth and snarling. apparently they trained this as his scary face. She seemed very pleased that she had trained him to do this and it apparently took alot of work and treats! If you ignore him he meant to jump up for "kisses" at your face, when i mentioned to her this could be construed as aggressive she said no thats why she only trained him to do it in the house as abit of fun!!!! :eek:

So now i understand why he is doing it and why it is getting worse. started with just the teeth and growling and progressed to the snapping and jumping up, he thinks he is doing the correct thing, poor boy is bound to be all muddled.

So i am hoping the to train some different cues for him to learn although i realise he may revert back to this technique if he doesnt get his own way. I feel abit more comfortable in that it was a stupid person who taught this behaviour and not something the dog is just doing.

I do thank you for taking the time to reply to my original post. Good day.
 
That's a clever thing to do isn't it :rolleyes::rolleyes: but at least you have found a possible cause. Hopefully your new trainer will help you train it out of her

Hope things get back on track.
 
Great that you managed to get an answer so promptly, just over 24 hours after you first posted here, when you were all set to hand him back, what a lucky dog.

Good luck and all the best with him :)
 
Yes it was lucky, the lady seems to be on fb 24hrs a day but her english is not good so i usually try to avoid talking to her much. and i did not expect a reply from the behaviourist so promptly. i hadnt even contacted her yet when i first posted on here.
 
CaveCanem said:
Great that you managed to get an answer so promptly, just over 24 hours after you first posted here, when you were all set to hand him back, what a lucky dog.

Good luck and all the best with him :)
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I agree, I hope this lady training this behaviour has been put right by the rescue because its one of the most stupid things Ive ever heard anyone do. This is why rescues should be made up of experienced dog people and not someone trying to teach cute tricks.
 
Dobiegirl said:
I agree, I hope this lady training this behaviour has been put right by the rescue because its one of the most stupid things Ive ever heard anyone do. This is why rescues should be made up of experienced dog people and not someone trying to teach cute tricks.
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Agreed -very scary that someone would be stupid enough to train this and even more scary when you look up the "rescue" and realise they have no UK back up in place.
 
The lady who taught this is not part of the rescue she lived in the flats next to the rubbish tip where he lived. yes the rescue are not happy that she didnt tell them about this.
 
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