review this bit? please....

Thank the gods there are other people out there who believe in the hanging bit=no poll pressure! I thought I was alone!
 
vienna said:
Yes i know what your saying of course when the cheek piece loosens there is less pressure but that would be because the horse moves away from the original pressure which which is why I think these bits are pretty fool proof as they almost set the required contact to at the vertical without the rider doing too much.
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You are pulling on the reins and raising the bit in the horse's mouth which decreases the distance from corner of mouth to poll and makes the cheekpieces bag as they are now too long. Read the GCSE primer I linked to again, there can be no poll pressure, what you are describing shows there can be no poll pressure!
 
Yes yes but use your basic knowedge of physics, I assume you HAVE a basic knowledge of physics, and you can see that what that picture is showing is just plain WRONG! For that picture to be correct you'd have had to firmly attach the rein to the bit ring so that it couldn't move on the ring and then lift your hands up to around chest height to reproduce the effect pictured. What actually happens (and this is probably the reason Wagtail can't find a video) is that firstly the rein is shortened and the bit is drawn back in the horse's mouth and the rein rotates around the bit ring, so the cheekpiece doesn't move forward ergo no poll pressure! If you use your assumption that the rein is magically fixed to the bit ring then an eggbut snaffle also has poll pressure! Only a loosering snaffle doesn't but of course that is magically converted into a gag with the amazing non-sliding reins unless the cheekpieces suddenly develop the same non-sliding properties.
 
I thought I would add some pics of the blonde bird just for peeps to look at re the poll pressure thing ;) she is stood still in all these pics so no real pulling going on.

slack rein so no pressure anywhere
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on the vertical + rein pressure, I think it perhaps gives the illusion of poll pressure because the top ring where the cheekpiece attaches appears to be rotated forwards slightly :confused:

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but then it is also rotated forwards a bit in this pic, with no pressure so is just how it is sitting.
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above the vertical! + rein pressure I think with this one if you were to pull back more you can see you would just pull the bit back in the mouth not rotate it

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Sorry to exasperate you all, but if the bit is held in the mouth by the cheekpiece/headpiece then surely in order for it to be held in the first place it must be lifted using a little pressure from the headpiece/poll?
 
but every bit is held in this manner so apart from the weight of the bit (which is the same for every one) it wont increase this pressure when a rein aid is given
 
ester: your horse is gawjus!

I will attempt photos over the weekend showing the complete lack of poll pressure. It was dark last night so they would have been rubbish!
 
From Esters pics it looks like poll pressure to me. Yesterday when I tried I had my livery client place her fingers under the headpiece as I exerted rein pressure and she felt a very slight tightening. The reason eggbuts don't work this way is that both the cheek pieces and the reins are free to move. However with an eggbutt that is not round ie. oval, and with a D ring, there is a certain amount of leverage, even though it is miniscule in comparison with a curb or gag. Some bauchers have much longer arms that attach to the cheek pieces, giving more poll pressure than the standard hanging cheek.

I DO actually understand what the 'no poll pressure' camp are saying, but the reality is not always what you imagine. I would think that bit manufacturers such as myler know what they are talking about. It is their business, after all. Also, British dressage have a limit on how long the 'arms' of a hanging cheek or baucher can be because of the action of the bit and the increase in poll pressure linear to the length of the arms.
 
There is no poll pressure exerted as the bit is not fixed - as previously stated - it's the laws of physics.

However this is one battle that will never be won because once people have one opinion they WILL NOT change it.
 
How can it exert poll pressure? When you pull the reins the cheekpieces actually bag out and loosen. Please explain to me how slackening the cheekpieces could ever exert poll pressure? I can't find a photo in my photobucket of this effect sadly so I can't show you but anyone who's used this bit must have seen it with their own eyes!
 
The cheek pieces go outwards when you take up a contact therefore they cant be putting any pressure on the poll if any thing it reduces poll pressure. Its physics theres no lever so it cant exert pressure on the poll.
Unfortunatly I dont have any pictures of the pony I used to ride with his in but it definatly made the cheek pieces slacken and go out so took any pressure off the poll.
 
jesstickle said:
How can it exert poll pressure? When you pull the reins the cheekpieces actually bag out and loosen. Please explain to me how slackening the cheekpieces could ever exert poll pressure? I can't find a photo in my photobucket of this effect sadly so I can't show you but anyone who's used this bit must have seen it with their own eyes!
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This only happens when the bit is fitted too low in the mouth.

The pictures that Ester provided show that when it is correctly fitted there is no bagging of the cheek pieces and the bit rotates to exert a small amount of pressure. I would agree that the pressure is very mild, and I have often wondered if it would be so mild as to be ineffective. However, I have found that horses that are reluctant to flex with a snaffle, often go very well in this bit.

Also, why do bit manufacturers at the cutting edge such as myler and sprenger claim that the bit creates a small amount of polll pressure if it does not? They have people who are paid to research, test and develop new bits.
 
Wagtail said:
This only happens when the bit is fitted too low in the mouth.


Also, why do bit manufacturers at the cutting edge such as myler and sprenger claim that the bit creates a small amount of polll pressure if it does not? They have people who are paid to research, test and develop new bits.
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Firstly, this depends on your definition of too low. If you still fit your bit with two wrinkles at the corners of the lips without questioning why then I think this discussion is probably null and void anyway. Secondly, and more importantly, it isn't the case. In my experience the cheek pieces bag in all cases, regardless of how high or low the bit is fitted.

To address your second point, either they are wrong (perfectly possible, plenty of things sold on the open market are not well understood by the sellers) or they say it because they know people want to hear it (even more probable IMHO)
 
It may also depend on the shape of the top loop where the cheekpieces attaches. Mylers have a more square eye so prevents the sliding round of the bit. Most non-myler hanging cheeks have a rounder eye so the cheekpiece slides round easier. That must make a difference??...
 
jesstickle said:
Firstly, this depends on your definition of too low. If you still fit your bit with two wrinkles at the corners of the lips without questioning why then I think this discussion is probably null and void anyway. Eek, no I hate that!
To address your second point, either they are wrong (perfectly possible, plenty of things sold on the open market are not well understood by the sellers) or they say it because they know people want to hear it (even more probable IMHO)
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Then I think you should apply for a job with them as you know far more than their bit designers do. If that is the case then I bow to your superior knowledge.
 
Oliviaandsparrow said:
It may also depend on the shape of the top loop where the cheekpieces attaches. Mylers have a more square eye so prevents the sliding round of the bit. Most non-myler hanging cheeks have a rounder eye so the cheekpiece slides round easier. That must make a difference??...
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The shape of the eye most definitely does make a difference, yes. But that does not explain the other bit manufacturers.

I have had a huge amount of experience in reschooling ex racehorses. One of their main issues, as many other who have reschooled them will know, is that they do not understand the correct way of going for a non racing riding horse. They are often, to begin with, above the bit. The majority can be quite easily schooled in various snaffles and will become soft and easy to work correctly. A few, and I have found that is is most often older horses that have become more established in being raced and ridden above the bit, will be more difficult. Some have had their mouths ruined. These horses nearly always go far better in a hanging cheek and are much softer and don't come against the hand. If the hanging cheek does not exert any leverage or poll pressure, then why would this be so? It is not because the bit is more stable in the mouth as this generally gives horses more to pull against.
 
Wagtail said:
the reality is not always what you imagine.
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No imagination required. Common sense and basic school level physics is all that you need.


Wagtail said:
Also, why do bit manufacturers at the cutting edge such as myler and sprenger claim that the bit creates a small amount of polll pressure if it does not? They have people who are paid to research, test and develop new bits.
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Because people are gullible enough to believe the spin that SALESMEN (or women ;) ) make!

Do you believe EVERYTHING you read on all feed supplements, for instance?
 
rhino said:
No imagination required. Common sense and basic school level physics is all that you need.




Because people are gullible enough to believe the spin that SALESMEN (or women ;) ) make!

Do you believe EVERYTHING you read on all feed supplements, for instance?
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Oh dear, I am so gullible. Obviously my livery lied to me too when she said the headpiece tightened. :o
 
Wagtail said:
Then I think you should apply for a job with them as you know far more than their bit designers do. If that is the case then I bow to your superior knowledge.
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I wouldn't be at all surprised if I had a better understanding of physics than most of the marketing team at NS or Myler tbh. Which isn't to say mine is superb but it is existent. My OH (who makes a living out of being good at maths and physics) is the one who told me there can't be any poll pressure. I'm damn sure he knows more about physics than the sales team at Myler frankly.
 
Can someone who is lots cleverer than I, explain why horses that like to go above the bit often go softer in hanging cheeks?
 
wagtail do you think you and your livery do the same with an eggbutt snaffle? I'd be interested to know whether they felt any different?
 
ester said:
wagtail do you think you and your livery do the same with an eggbutt snaffle? I'd be interested to know whether they felt any different?
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I actually don't own an eggbut snaffle. I expect that with the ones that are more oval in shape, that there MAY be a similar feel, though the fact that both the cheek pieces and the reins are free to move around the ring any leverage would be miniscule.

As I said before. I DO understand the arguments against the poll pressure and agree it is a very small amount. However, my experience is that horses that go well in 3 ring gags usually go well in a hanging cheek when something dressage legal is required.
 
Brambridge04 said:
Should bits no longer be fitted with lip wrinkles then. massively confused now
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Yes, and no. All horses lips are different when the bit is correctly fitted. Some may have two wrinkles, others only one, and some, with firm lips and smaller mouths may not wrinckle at all and fitting a bit to make two wrinkles would be far too high.
 
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