review this bit? please....

Please dont use low wit when you explain to people how this bit works.
I was sent a link as I beleived it used poll pressure. Physics is definately my weakest point. I am not stupid I excel more at social sciences rather than science.
When it was explained to me in laymans terms I visualised it better with words than with a GCSE diagram. Now I have lots of GCSEs at good grades but I did not understand the diagram.
It was enlightenening to see how the bit works and now I am a bigger fan of it than I was before.
If your way of explaining it does not work try another way or simply agree to disagree.
It can be done...just stop typing.
 
Have to agree with Wagtail on this. This is the 1st time that I have ever heard the suggestion that hanging cheek bits don't use poll pressure: indeed, most people on my old yards that used them did so specifically for that reason. That isn't to say that just because something is generally believe doesn't make it necessarily true. However bit manufactorers can't directly lie about the way a bit works. Companies have no vested in interest in just trying to make people buy hanging cheeks because they make alternative bits anyway - either way they can sell a bit, there is no need for them to lie about the way a bit works in order to sell it. Various bitting books, websites, riding instructors & trainers have all talked about the presence of poll pressure - albeit mild - in hanging cheeks. Apparent reductionist laws of GCSE physics (!) don't persuade me and it'd take concrete evidence for me to believe otherwise. However I'll be keeping an open mind!
 
I may well got shot for this, BUT.............

Having read the sustainable dressage link, and looking on all subjects not just the part about bits, i could NOT tell you one thing they do like bar a drop noseband...... i dont like the site.
 
wagtail I do have both but not with the same links, I have a french link hanging, mullen hanging and jointed eggbut but might have a play when I have an extra pair of hands!

fwiw the mare pictured does NOT go well in a 3 ring of the same mouthpiece, if she needs something stronger she is better in pelham. It took a long time to find something she wasn't fussy in or curled behind and this seems to work :)
 
The point is to make it work it needs a pivot point - eg a curb strap. This then would give it poll pressure. Why do you think a curb chain is so common on a pelham?!
 
BombayMix said:
The point is to make it work it needs a pivot point - eg a curb strap. This then would give it poll pressure. Why do you think a curb chain is so common on a pelham?!
Click to expand...

Are you saying that a curb chain causes poll pressure? If so then I've never heard that either! I have always heard it being described as 'squeezing' the jaw - I don't see how it relates to poll pressure?
 
OK - I thought it was a well known (and accepted fact) that a hanging cheek does exert poll pressure (albeit a very small amount) why on earth would a bit be designed as it is if it was not to achieve that effect? Oh hang on, lets add a pretty bit of metal at the top there for absolutely no reason ....

It in no way exerts a large amount of pressure but yes pressure it does. Fact really but go on lets argue until the cows come home as we have nothing better to do .....

It is in fact a VERY popular bit for LR/First Ridden because it is legal but gives that extra bit of assistance to little hands. Oh no, lets think about this all those producers must be wrong because the hanging cheek give no more assistance at all.
 
The original name for a bit with hanging cheeks is a Baucher, after the famous trainer in the French Light School, and the reason it was designed that way was to "hold" the bit in the horse's mouth so that when the horse went correctly - to their way of thinking - the bit hung in a neutral fashion with no pressure on the bars or tongue. As far as cheek pieces go, it provides the opposite effect to the loose ring that is the default for the German Competitive School, which is more or less what we call Dressage these days.

The reason it doesn't provide poll pressure is because in order for that to happen there would have to be leverage, which would only come about if the force (rein aid) acted below the level of the fulcrum (mouthpiece) but this does not happen because the rein runs around the ring of the bit. The use of hooks and shaped rings to hold the rein below the mouthpiece DO result in some leverage, which is why bits with those features are not legal for dressage.

As to why bit manufacturers say otherwise (physics isn't optional, after all) I have no idea but it seems to be quite a recent delusion. I've seen quite a few "interesting" explanations about how various bits of tack work over the years so file quite a lot of it under "don't believe everything you read". After all, the write-ups are not written by scientists but by people trying to sell a product.

Anyway, the bit works well for some horses and I guess if it makes people happy to say they are using more force to get that done, the companies will be more than happy to support that view. In effect it is arguably more comfortable than a loose ring with the same mouthpiece because it holds the bit relatively still in the horse's mouth.

I'm always a bit alarmed when I see misinformation about subjects I know a lot about because it makes me wonder how much stuff I'm taking as Gospel because I don't know any better!
 
TarrSteps said:
The original name for a bit with hanging cheeks is a Baucher, after the famous trainer in the French Light School, and the reason it was designed that way was to "hold" the bit in the horse's mouth so that when the horse went correctly - to their way of thinking - the bit hung in a neutral fashion with no pressure on the bars or tongue. As far as cheek pieces go, it provides the opposite effect to the loose ring that is the default for the German Competitive School, which is more or less what we call Dressage these days.

The reason it doesn't provide poll pressure is because in order for that to happen there would have to be leverage, which would only come about if the force (rein aid) acted below the level of the fulcrum (mouthpiece) but this does not happen because the rein runs around the ring of the bit. The use of hooks and shaped rings to hold the rein below the mouthpiece DO result in some leverage, which is why bits with those features are not legal for dressage.

As to why bit manufacturers say otherwise (physics isn't optional, after all) I have no idea but it seems to be quite a recent delusion. I've seen quite a few "interesting" explanations about how various bits of tack work over the years so file quite a lot of it under "don't believe everything you read". After all, the write-ups are not written by scientists but by people trying to sell a product.

Anyway, the bit works well for some horses and I guess if it makes people happy to say they are using more force to get that done, the companies will be more than happy to support that view. In effect it is arguably more comfortable than a loose ring with the same mouthpiece because it holds the bit relatively still in the horse's mouth.

I'm always a bit alarmed when I see misinformation about subjects I know a lot about because it makes me wonder how much stuff I'm taking as Gospel because I don't know any better!
Click to expand...


Thank you for that explaination! I was certain there was poll pressure as the rein would bring the lower ring back, tipping the straight part forward so the top ring exerted poll pressure - until you pointed out the rein would have to act BELOW the fulcrum!!
 
Really interesting thread. Especially as a just read on a well known bit shop website that the neue schule baucher does have poll pressure. Get the physics now, thanks to this thread. My next, probably rather stupid question is what is the difference in action between a hanging cheek and an egbut? What benefit does the hanging bit of the hanging snaffle have? Thanks.
 
thanks tarrsteps! I forgot the bit about the ring not being any distance from the fulcrum.

I find the hanging cheek/baucher sits much stiller in the mouth and flatter as it doesn't rotated at all, an eggbutt, as the cheekpiece isn't fixed tends to hang in the mouth a bit differently.
 
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