Reward or ignore spook behaviour?

Clodagh

Clodagh

Rage, rage, against the dying of the light.
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My boy is not good in traffic. He is OK with cars but not good with white vans having been hit by one last year. I always get him past them, only using legs and voice, when I have succeeded do I make a fuss of him or just carry on as before? I tend to really praise him but then I thought, if he were a dog I wouldn't praise as it would reinforce the fear, but obviously he doesn't think anything like a dog. What would you do?
His normal spooks (which are nothing very much) I just ignore, he is a bit neurotic and getting after him only makes him more nervous.
 
I must admit when out hacking, I ignore it and just ride as normal and try and be confident, but if I was doing desensitising work with scary things and had got my horse to stand quietly by them then I would praise her lots.
 
It depends on his behaviour really. If he goes passed and doesn't bat an eye lid i would tell him good boy and a quick scratch on his neck. (your praising him for not reacting) If he has a look, snort even a little jog passed, when he has gone passed the van i would say "good boy walk on". If he is leaping about acting like a tit then i would just keep my voice calm repeating "walk on" when we finally get passed i would say "good lad". I understand about getting after him makes him worse, which is why i always use my voice in a calm way, never growling. Remember if the red mist comes down and a horse is in flight mode theres usually very little that gets through to them but you always have an extra bit of chance if they are used to you using your voice.
 
Well, what an achievement! I would be terrified of white vans if one had hit me!

I would do what you are doing tbh, 'getting after him' isn't fair in my book when he has a totally rational fear even in human terms! ps .Better add, obviously in an emergency situation that's different.
It doesn't sound like you are rewarding his fear but an achievement ie. when he's past the van. Staying calm and encouraging past sounds good to me. Hopefully some of the training/behaviour peeps can comment for you.
 
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I'd give him a rub and a "good boy" for going past the van sensibly and quietly ignore spooking behaviour. If he got spooky and then calmed down a bit, I would give him a rub. I don't reward spooking, but I do praise them for choosing not to spook even if they are a bit afraid of something.
 
Repeat your command verbally and then reward if he does it, or makes an attempt. Don't ever tell him off. He is frightened, not being silly and being punished will only reinforce his fear. When he's panicking he'll have no space in his head for ' I'm panicking and being praised. Panicking is therefore a good plan'. If you give him a commamd he knows well (walk on for example), it gives him something else pleasent to attempt and listen to, and something for you to do and praise for.

My friends 4yr old isn't great with traffic yet. She's worried by large vehicles. She has been taught to 'Stand' when she's frightened. It's a command she knows well from on the ground and and was heavily reinforced when being broken (she was a fidget). If asked to keep going she panics and runs as it's just too much but 'Stand' is something she can manage. It gives her time and space to look and think about the scary bus etc, which is what she needs. It suits her mentality (not at all nappy, accepts things after a quick think, , not prone to panicking, spinning and running) 'Walk on' would work as well for a different type of horse. She now offers a 'stand' when worried even before we've spotted the vehicle and the worse she does is a step sideways.

The biggest benefit is it's easy to reward and control. She's told 'Stand' calmly and firmly then, just as she was when learning originally, patted and told she's a good girl a second or so later for doing so. She is constantly talked to as the sound of your voice helps settle her. She is managing to 'do' something constructive through her fear and being praised for it.
 
All good thoughts, thank you. This morning a white delivery van came past us on a very narrow bit of road. I asked him to stop but he kept coming, albeit very slowly, horse was OK until it was almost level, so from his point of view we were going into a narrow passage between hedge and van, when he reared up and spun round to charge off. It is all very slow motion and easy to sit, he just bottled it. I turned him straight round and just aimed for the gap, lots of leg and 'Good boy, walk on'. He then went through (van had stopped by now!). He is really scared, he crouches and tenses but was honest enough to trust me. When we got out the other end (b van driver shot off again when we were level with the back) he scooted forward but then pulled up and just walked on again. So I did give him a neck rub (you can't pat him, he thinks you are going to hit him if he sees your hand) and a 'Good boy whos the bravest horse in the world' sort of chat.
KB, I prefer not to stand as it gives him time to work out his flight response, which is spinning round and getting closer to the vehicle than he would if he kept going straight, I see where you are coming from with the 4 year old though.
So I will stick to doing that, we have made huge progress and I completely understand he isn't being naughty.
 
I dont think there is any right or wrong in that situation, its just what works best for your horse. By the sounds of it you have a good bond with him and how your dealing with the van thing is working. You should be proud of what you have acomplished considering the awful accident you both had in the fist place.
 
Clodagh. I wear a long sleeved Hi-Viz jacket so that other road users can clearly see my hand signals. If I want a vehicle to stop then I initially point at them for 3 seconds and then hold up the palm of my hand towards them. This normally stops them and I can pass them in the narrow gap. This is a technique I learn from the mounted police when i used to ride in central London.
 
I can see no problem with reassuring a nervous horse (or any other animal) while it is in a frighting situation. Even better to distract in some way if you can. I read an earlier post on another thread that the best thing was to keep the horse moving as getting them to think where they are putting their feet is in itself a distraction.

We do a bit of desensitisation from the ground with youngsters and shove a slice of carrot into their mouths every time a car goes past! This is done from our road end and at a distance from the main road where traffic does not cause too much alarm.

No harm at all in rewarding after the event but I think reassurance/distractions DURING the upsetting experience would be far more valuable. Punishment? Never!
 
Just a minor point :)

It is only possible to reinforce *behaviour*. Emotions (including fear) are not capable of being trained or reinforced.

So if your horse passes the scary thing, and you make a big fuss of them, you have reinforced their behaviour in walking - on request - past something despite how they were feeling. Provided, that is, that your horse actually finds your big fuss rewarding ;)

Emotions are reflexive - we have no control over whether they happen or not, they result from the situations we find ourselves in. Our behaviour is partly determined by our emotions, but behaviour *is*under conscious control, so a horse and a human can both decide to walk past something that terrifies them despite the fear.

On the other hand, emotions in specific situations are partly as a result of our previous experiences in similar situations, so using force, growls, etc. to coerce a horse past something they are already frightened of will register in their memory and affect how they act in the future, should they encounter a similar situation.
 
OrangePepper said:
Clodagh. I wear a long sleeved Hi-Viz jacket so that other road users can clearly see my hand signals. If I want a vehicle to stop then I initially point at them for 3 seconds and then hold up the palm of my hand towards them. This normally stops them and I can pass them in the narrow gap. This is a technique I learn from the mounted police when i used to ride in central London.
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I have to say - if I was driving, and a (non-police) rider pointed at me for three seconds, then held a hand up - I'd probably stop and have a quiet word. Rather reinforces the opinion that many drivers have of horse people!
 
He stopped PDQ when we stood on our back legs in front of his bonnet! I do take on board what you say, Orangepepper, it is quite hard to make someone understand you mean 'stop' I was clearly saying 'please stop' and holding my hand up towards him, but maybe he thought I was thanking him for slowing down? Maybe he was just a nobber!
Horse is lovely, and will really go anywhere I ask him, but we have only just started hacking out on the roads again since the spring, after he got clipped by the van we only went out in company for ages, but we both need to pull our socks up and move on now.
 
Brightbay said:
Just a minor point :)

It is only possible to reinforce *behaviour*. Emotions (including fear) are not capable of being trained or reinforced.

So if your horse passes the scary thing, and you make a big fuss of them, you have reinforced their behaviour in walking - on request - past something despite how they were feeling. Provided, that is, that your horse actually finds your big fuss rewarding ;)

Emotions are reflexive - we have no control over whether they happen or not, they result from the situations we find ourselves in. Our behaviour is partly determined by our emotions, but behaviour *is*under conscious control, so a horse and a human can both decide to walk past something that terrifies them despite the fear.

On the other hand, emotions in specific situations are partly as a result of our previous experiences in similar situations, so using force, growls, etc. to coerce a horse past something they are already frightened of will register in their memory and affect how they act in the future, should they encounter a similar situation.
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I think you might have to read that to yourself again.

Or perhaps I'm just thick!:confused:
 
Same as others have said, if he goes past something he is afraid of (even if it takes a few attempts) then give him a neck rub and a "good boy" for being brave enough to pass. Panicky/pratting about spooking I would ignore. Telling him off will only reinforce the worry.
 
I don't have anything very useful to add other than, it sounds like yo are doing a great job with him to get such a nervous horse, who has also had such a traumatic experience, to keep working with you. Sounds like you have a lovely relationship with him and are doing everything right given how he is responding to you.

I do know what you mean thgh about reinforcing spooky behaviour and have wondered the same thing myself. I also have a super spooky horse, and I do reward him when I know he's been genuinely scared and then been past something. On the other hand mine can be cheeky and use it as an excuse so then I just ignore...
 
I will never forget many many years ago when I was riding out a young horse who was very spooky I stopped to let her look at a large horse lorry coming past. She started playing up so I half pulled onto someones driveway. The driver of the lorry, an old chap, wound down the window and gave me hell! Shouting 'keep that ********ng horse moving, don't let it just stand there, get it bl**dy walking - well you get the picture! I felt the size of an ant! But never forgot it.
Now with Roberto I keep him walking. If there's something he's wary of I keep the reins loose, squeeze him on, give him a scratch or stroke and in a Welsh accent :o say ohh Cariad, good boy, you'll be fine (cariad is my pet name for him meaning my little darling!)
However, after many uneventful rides, a week last sunday we had everything thrown at us in bucketloads. Barking dogs in the back of a van, barking dogs on leads, what seemed like the Tour de France then the big one.... The big green bridge! Its a huge big metal arched bridge going over a very busy bypass road. When we got to the top ready to cross the bridge I had two black labs bounding up towards us. Wondering what on earth the noise was I realised there was a vintage steamroller going under it. Then coming up behind us was Charlie, a real old nagsman with his horse and cart. Now I was worried, not just for me but the two little ponies out with me. Roberto walked over the bridge, past the dogs down the other side, perfect. I then pulled over to wait for Charlie seizing an opportunity to meet him in a safe place. Roberto managed a mean passage but I just let the reins loose, carried on talking to Charlie until he calmed down. Then made him follow the cart up the bridleway, and let him take the lead with the cart behind us. I came back from the ride on a real high.
What surprised me though was that Charlie said so many people he see's out riding will turn the other way and do anything they can to avoid him and yet he would do anything he can to help a horse fearful of him.
Anyway, bit of a ramble there, sorry! All I was actually going to say was if it's white vans in particular can't you ask someone with one to help with a bit of desensitising?
 
Auslander said:
I have to say - if I was driving, and a (non-police) rider pointed at me for three seconds, then held a hand up - I'd probably stop and have a quiet word. Rather reinforces the opinion that many drivers have of horse people!
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Im not sure if Im reading this right but is it the manner she is asking drivers to stop or just telling drivers to stop. Sounds a bit of an accusing way to tell people to stop but Id imagine its effective!

I know in Ireland if a person in charge of an animal tells a driver to stop the driver has to stop or they are breaking the rules of the road
 
snooples said:
Im not sure if Im reading this right but is it the manner she is asking drivers to stop or just telling drivers to stop. Sounds a bit of an accusing way to tell people to stop but Id imagine its effective!

I know in Ireland if a person in charge of an animal tells a driver to stop the driver has to stop or they are breaking the rules of the road
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Its the pointy finger that bothers me. Ok for the police to do it, but a civilian on a horse? Kind of reinforces why many drivers think riders are arrogant. We don't own the road, and have no right to try and control traffic. We can politely request that drivers stop if we're having a wibble, but thats it.

I was interested enough to post a question for the non horse people on my Facebook page, and the general consensus of opinion was that if someone pointed at them for three seconds and ordered them to stop - they'd probably wind the window down and tell him/her to f-off
 
Auslander said:
Its the pointy finger that bothers me. Ok for the police to do it, but a civilian on a horse? Kind of reinforces why many drivers think riders are arrogant. We don't own the road, and have no right to try and control traffic. We can politely request that drivers stop if we're having a wibble, but thats it.

I was interested enough to post a question for the non horse people on my Facebook page, and the general consensus of opinion was that if someone pointed at them for three seconds and ordered them to stop - they'd probably wind the window down and tell him/her to f-off
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Yeah I don't think I could do the pointy finger thing. Op find a white van parked up and start with that. I am doing the same with tractors with my mare (she has not been hit by one she is just being very welsh about them, my 4yr old daughter on a mini Shetland led us past one the other day, how embarrassing!).
 
I will keep a look out for white van man! A friend has a small one, so not as scarey as a transit type but perhaps I could get him to feed carrots out of the window - it would be a start.
 
Clodagh said:
I will keep a look out for white van man! A friend has a small one, so not as scarey as a transit type but perhaps I could get him to feed carrots out of the window - it would be a start.
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Park it next to a wall with the ignition off. Work on walking past the open side, then the wall side (so you are hemmed in) then put the ignition on, then get someone to rev the engine and so on. Gradually. You won't be worried as you will know its a safe situation which could show you if he is picking up on you worrying about what he might do, as well.
 
Careful! lol. We despooked our lad to bicycles by having a tame rider with a pocket full of Polos... ten years after he still tries to mug every bike rider for a polo...he loves them. The original rider took to a field to escape only to discover that a large Sec D can move a heck of a lot faster than a pushbike over a rough surface. It was hilarious to watch but, in retrospect, possibly a mistake.
 
Ladyinred said:
Careful! lol. We despooked our lad to bicycles by having a tame rider with a pocket full of Polos... ten years after he still tries to mug every bike rider for a polo...he loves them. The original rider took to a field to escape only to discover that a large Sec D can move a heck of a lot faster than a pushbike over a rough surface. It was hilarious to watch but, in retrospect, possibly a mistake.
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LOL! Visions of me and horse pursuing Asda delivery driver all over the village.
 
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