Richard Maxwell vs Intellegent Horsemanship

MissMincePie&Brandy said:
If a horse is truly dangerous it should be pts or kept by someone who can guarantee it isn't going to be passed on to other unsuspecting people.
You sold the horse, and you cannot put any blame onto the the lady who you sold it to. If she had been injured, would you care about that?

Did you investigate to see if there were any medical reasons for such behaviour? Did it have KS perhaps, or a neurological problem? Perhaps RM found symptoms of underlying issues causing the erratic and dangerous behaviour, and it would have been very irresponsible of him to allow his client to ride a horse who is and is likely to remain dangerous.
He very rarely gives that sort of advice, so I suspect there was more going on with that horse than you are saying or are aware of.
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no,i dont blame her,i blame him.

He had parrott mouth but the issue with riding was he needed someone more experienced,he had a few knots but the physio worked them out,no signs of ks etc.

he gave him a week,instead of allowing him to relax into his surroundings,some lunging,some longlining,and then maybe a dummy etc.

thats the way i was tought but who am i too think horses need time to adapt?

they should be like robots then and just deal!
 
If the choice is between RM and IH and you want to do ridden work then RM is the one I'd be ringing. I have done most of the IH courses, done a lot of practice with an IHRA and have taken my horse to RM for courses.

RM does ground work exercises that are easily transferrable to ridden work which is not the case with IH.

If you want to ride, you will have to find not just an IHRA but one that teaches riding too, as far as I'm aware they don't all do that.

Having said that, if RM feels that you need to put more work in before riding your horse, he will say so and depending on what your horse does while he's there, you may find that what you're given to work on is not what you expect. But that doesn't mean it won't be useful, you may have stuff to work on first which will lead you to where you want to go.

The IH 5 day courses are for people to learn join up, long reining and various ground work exercises. As far as I'm aware, but happy to be corrected, they do not involve riding.
 
How can you blame Richard Maxwell when you don't know what the horses owner told him? You know what you told her, but perhaps she didn't pass that info on. Perhaps she bought a cheap horse thinking she could turn it round quickly and make a profit? Plenty of people will promise home for life to knock the price down or secure the sale. How do you know RM wasn't told she wanted it ridable
 
WelshShowCobs said:
within a week they got on him and trying walk trot and canter,he threw a hissyfit and richard advised he was dangerous and to pts.if they had restarted him on the lunge,long lines carefully he would have been fine.

i hold him personally responsible for that horses death.and wont even buy a magazine with him in it now.
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And you know that how? Considering you couldn't even handle him safely.

WelshShowCobs said:
i was a novice owner hence why he was too much,sold as a happy hacker but not that.i sold him to a very experienced and lovely lady.
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How experienced and lovely, since you said he ended up at a sanctuary before RM took him on? Which judging by your timescale of 8 months non ridden means neither of you could have owned him for very long.

WelshShowCobs said:
so if you sold a horse with issues that you didnt have time/experience/or money to deal with and instead of giving said horse the time the new owner promise and instead pts would you not be a bit upset?

The main point of me posting was explaining that they knew he was high tempered and knew he had issues and should have had alot of groudwork done,but instead they rushed it.
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I would be upset at the 'lovely and experienced lady' if she had promised so much and then passed him on to a sanctuary. Why did she do this, could she not handle him properly? Was a full diagnostic screening ever done by either of you to see if there were underlying medical conditions - yes you say it is a 'thoroughbred' thing but it really, really isn't.

WelshShowCobs said:
I was told by the new owner,on the forum and by another person who was working with the horse.

yes maybe it is hearsay then,by 3 different people,if i could have been there,i would have but i wasnt given a choice.

again i go back to the issue that he had the horse a week and got on it asking for canter and he blew as most horses would after not having anything done with him for over 8 months!and i would not recommend him.
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It sounds like the horse had been ridden successfully previously to you buying it though? Was it an ex racehorse? To be quite fair, you couldn't handle it, sold it to someone who quite possibly couldn't handle it, it ended up at a sanctuary and then RM gave it a chance?

Which person 'told you' what had happened, and was the person working with the horse, working at RM's? If it was the person you sold the horse to, then how did she know exactly what was going on if she'd got rid of the horse to a sanctuary :confused:
 
Op where abouts are you as there might be someone on here that could advise of a person to help in your local area......we have a great guy near us that works wonders with the horses he sees.
X
 
I've used Richard Maxwell for loading and he was great, would I send my horse away to him... probably not, we have different ways of dealing with things and I believe you need to take what fits for you and your horse rather than following any training method blindly to the letter.

Would I send him to Kelly Marks? Probably not, I've met them both and considered using Kelly (or a colleague of hers she recommended) but I didn't warm to her, she came across as slightly disinterested and seemed a bit cold

I would use Richard again for handling, I've no experience of his ridden teachings
 
What about some of the other "problem horse" people? Jason Webb seems to get good feedback at the moment, or some people like Michael Pease, there are more that just a couple of big names.
 
WelshShowCobs how can you blame Richard Maxwell when you don't know what the horses owner told him? You know what you told her, but perhaps she didn't pass that info on. Perhaps she bought a cheap horse thinking she could turn it round quickly and make a profit? Plenty of people will promise home for life to knock the price down or secure the sale. How do you know RM wasn't told she wanted it ridable in a week or that there was nothing much wrong with the horse? She may have had money but not have been willing to spend it on this horse. I have no experience of RM, perhaps he is awful, but I really don't like people being slated on a public forum the way you are. You're saying he said x y z but you don't know that, or the circumstance it may have been said in. You're relying on third party info, ie hearsay, and stating it as fact. I don't think that's fair.
 
I cannot quite fathom WHY someone with a physical disability would buy an "on the edge" TB..maybe 1`m missing something here. If you wanted a "happy hacker" then go for a trusty Irish Cob..I did.:)
And blame RM for your own mishap?? He`s brilliant..oh ..and able bodied .
 
I can't be pestered to go back and quote people's posts, but I'm going to put myself out there as I'm sure this issue has come up on the subject of Richard Maxwell before and either him or someone close to him said he has never advised a horse be put down. There have been times he's decided he can't help a horse and suggested they try someone else. I'm absolutely sure I've read this. Its really getting to me that people are saying awful things when they actually have NO IDEA.

Richard can achieve things more quickly than your average person, because he is a fantastic horseman with excellent feel etc. The fact that you are absolute SURE what you've 'heard' is the truth is ridiculous, you sold the horse, you've just been TOLD he went to Richard and been TOLD what he said, you have absolutely no proof, I assume you've never even met the man.

And if you want to hold someone responsible for the horse's death than hold yourself responsible for selling him in the first place. If he would've been so easy to sort why didn't you do it yourself.

Back to the original poster's question, yes he'll be able to help you with your ridden problems, but he'll show you how to put lots of work in on the ground first, it is all transferable to ridden. He does a lot of lateral work and getting the horse really supple etc. Being able to move a horses shoulders etc stops them from blocking you so you start to have tools you can use when they become evasive. That was a very slapdash description sorry, but I would recommend 100%, I highly doubt you'll be disappointed. I have no personal experience with Kelly Marks so I can't comment.
 
LG's Skivvy said:
Out of interest, what are the horses problems?

There are lots of behaviourists out there, some might specialise in your issues
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Hello again! Thank you all again for your opinions!!!

here is the e-mail that I have sent RM and IH people to see what if they thought that their course may help me reach the goal. I have heard back from theRM team already with their daunting pricing structure! Please do not judge me for taking him on he is hugely talented horse and has come SOO far with me and we are doing loads of stuff and he is cool but I want to get to the next level and convential methods have not worked.

I understand that someone on here as commented that maybe I should go down the traditional route and trust me we have and he has been ridden and schooled by top pros who did not want to deal with him have totally ruined him by beating him

HI,
I hope that you do not mind me contacting you. But I really could do with some advise or at least pointing in the right direction. I have a 17.1hh stunning iron grey Belgium warmblood that came who was apparently ‘trouble some’ to break and ride. I used to compete for the USA and I thought I was a capable enough rider and took him on almost 2 years ago knowing all of this. When I got him it took me 45 minutes to get close enough to get on, he would rear spin buck in my face(rather un nerving when trying to stand on a mounting block) and run away. I went back to basics did basic join up played games with him gaining his trust and eventually he let me get on(from the ground then eventually from the block), but I still have to hold a lunge line as I get on as he will sometimes (1 out of 30 times) try his trick again if he really does not want to be ridden, he has kicked me in the back before when I did not manage to get out of the way quick enough. I have never gotten cross with him and smacked him as I know this is what happened to him before and he does get very scared and you can see when he is as he stands and shakes. When he is like this I do my very best to reassure him and off we go again. I have managed to get him loading and we have taken him to a dressage show and he was a very brave and got on with his job. He is jumping coloured fences at home now and all in all getting better with all the natural horsemanship I have done.

But here in lies the problem even when I feel I have made huge headway with him, he then throws another spanner in the works and I feel like I am going 15 steps back. For example when he does not want to do something (or decides he has had enough or wants to go back to his stable) he naps through to the right shoulder planting himself leaving you holding the left rein (natural reaction when he turns into a banana) rears spins and bucks to go the direction he wants to go, spinning you around. If you try to get him back to where you want to go he will do exactly the same again locking the left side of his jaw and spinning you around but as the time goes on, and the more you try to rectify the situation the bigger the rears get and the bucks get more violent. Last night all I wanted to do was walk him down the track to the school, we were cooling off and he had worked in the field (huge step for him) and we were pottering around cooling off. He napped planted bucked span reversed into things all over the yard tried to reverse into the stable yard. He eventually backed into a tree scared himself went straight up into the air head between the legs and tried to bronk me off into a car, I am pleased to report I stayed on, how I am not sure. Again this is what he does when he does not want to be ridden. I tapped him with the schooling stick and pushed him forward he planted (acting like a spoilt child) we stood there for 20 minutes in the banana shape then he trundles off down where I wanted to go in the first place, I know I won but I feel it was on his terms.

I am totally at my wits end, he can do it but chooses not to do it, and tries to kill me to get out of it, I have no idea what to do, he has totally knocked my confidence to the point I really don’t want to ride and for me to say that is saying something. I really have to motivate myself to ride. I really want to compete him in showjumping and dressage, which I can tell you he is more than capable if he want to is another story. I don’t really care if I cant hack out on my own but I would like to be able to ride him around the yard without wondering if he is going to plant me into something. I know he very stubborn and troubled horse but I just cant seem to find a way to tell him we are going to do it and it will not kill you without all the teddies coming out of the pram, and him having some sort of deluded teenage tantrum. I really want someone to advise me as to what I need to do, or to tell me I am fighting a lost cause as that is how I feel at the moment. But like everything I don’t have endless pots of money so I was wondering if you could point me in the direction

FYI I am in Cambridgeshire.


I dont want to give up on him and I would never sell him to someone
 
sorry to upset everyone,i was disabled,now a new hip,when i got him he was very calm,almost doped some would say but this last a few months,and then he was not happy and i realised i couldnt handle him.

i was scared,someone came along and promised hima forever home,he went to the sanctuary as a livery and pretty much lived out,then went to rm,under her new owner.

he would have dealt with work again probably fine.yes he was ok ridden when i bought him but unfortunatly nerves got the best of me and i was too scared to ride him.

i had a welsh cob who was not first ridden pony for myself but i didnt want to sell her.the dealer saw me coming and took the ****.

yeah i do feel bad but i dont feel responsible.i tried everything with him and no money was spared,no i didnt get a medical screening,im sorry it evaded me,i have the dentist,vet and physio with a brand new saddle fitted for him,not made to measure but fitted.

has nobody else been overhorsed and scared?i was!a lady came along and told me forever home and if he was ridden he would have been a field ornament.how stupid of me to believe this.

i stand firm on this,i would NEVER use him and i would NEVER recommend anyone to him,everyone to their own opinions.

and btw yes i have met him,when he did a demo with this horse before he went to his yard and i wasnt very impressed then.

fine maybe i should have rang him or whatever,i have gone off what i was told.

and as ive already said I WAS A NOVICE OWNER WHO WAS DISABLED!

if i was who i am now i probably would have been fine but i wasnt,i needed help,shame on me for trying to get that help.
 
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I had RM out for my warmblood mare and got some great tools to help her rearing problem. He is alot of money but I felt worth it.
He rode my mare (who had taken to rearing) and if I could have afforded to I would have continued to have him out to help.
One thing with Richard is he adapts and uses a variety of methods, he's not fixed on one thing.

I then found a fantastic IH person who I was able to have come out and ride and I wouldn't be without her.

Good luck with your horse
 
You have my sympathy, I'm in a similar situation - had him a while and he's come so far but we still have some major issues to deal with

I will warn you though, so you are prepared (because i wasn't) RM did beat my horse... I couldn't have done what he did and it was all I could do to not stop him and call the whole thing off, I ended up turning my back, having a cry and letting them fight it out.

What I will say to counter that is that I do believe that RM did what he had to do and had got to the end of his tether, what he did worked and despite that, as I said previously, I would use him again.
 
Okay thank you for that as that is something I was not prepared for. I understand there is a time and a place for all of that but I dont think i could stay on if I had to do it!

See there is where I get torn between the two as I cant afford to do both.....he is genuinely insecure about life and is scared then there are moments where he is being a total @@@@@@@ and just taking the michel. I know that the IH would give him more confidence with me on the ground and trust me but RM would help me with the ridden. What I dont want to do is let someone smack him and have everything I have done undone in about 2 minutes and I am left with a 17hh nervous wreck?!
 
LG's Skivvy said:
You have my sympathy, I'm in a similar situation - had him a while and he's come so far but we still have some major issues to deal with

I will warn you though, so you are prepared (because i wasn't) RM did beat my horse... I couldn't have done what he did and it was all I could do to not stop him and call the whole thing off, I ended up turning my back, having a cry and letting them fight it out.

What I will say to counter that is that I do believe that RM did what he had to do and had got to the end of his tether, what he did worked and despite that, as I said previously, I would use him again.
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Do you mean with a rope or a stick? He used a rope like a cowboy (either side) to get mine off the leg. Certainly can't imagine him beating something if I'm really honest. He doesn't have that sort of temper.
 
OP - I think the most important thing for you is to find someone local, you can trust, who gives ongoing support and lessons with both you and the horse. I don't think this is a 'quick fix' scenario, and while sending him away might help initially I think this is a long term issue. Good luck!
 
to clarify he wasn't riding my horse, I had him out for loading. He 'beat' my horse with the rope, some people might not calling it beating but compared to my own perception and how I handle things it wasn't pleasant to watch. He whipped him from ear to rear with that rope (I think he might have lost his temper but I can't be sure as dont' know him well enough, he swore a lot for about 5 minutes afterwards lol which completely threw me as he wasn't the RM I recognised)

don't get me wrong my horse fought that man every step of the way, he was determined not to comply and I was heard to say on more than one occassion "you have got insurance haven'ty you" and "are you sure you don't want some protective gear on"
 
LG's Skivvy said:
to clarify he wasn't riding my horse, I had him out for loading. He 'beat' my horse with the rope, some people might not calling it beating but compared to my own perception and how I handle things it wasn't pleasant to watch. He whipped him from ear to rear with that rope (I think he might have lost his temper but I can't be sure as dont' know him well enough, he swore a lot for about 5 minutes afterwards lol which completely threw me as he wasn't the RM I recognised)

don't get me wrong my horse fought that man every step of the way, he was determined not to comply and I was heard to say on more than one occassion "you have got insurance haven'ty you" and "are you sure you don't want some protective gear on"
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I don't care who he is, I would have had to step in and tell him to sling his hook for that...
 
Exactly LG just wanted to know what your perception was :)

Was he spinning the rope at the horse and making contact or was he purely using the rope to hit your horse?
 
he was spinning the rope and hitting him with it, so basically whipping him vertically through his neck and body, if that makes sense.. I'm not sure how best to describe it. Anyway, he loads now, sometimes you have to step away and recognise that your way isn't working maybe its time to try someone elses.

it was a means to an end
 
LG's Skivvy said:
he was spinning the rope and hitting him with it, so basically whipping him vertically through his neck and body, if that makes sense.. I'm not sure how best to describe it. Anyway, he loads now, sometimes you have to step away and recognise that your way isn't working maybe its time to try someone elses.

it was a means to an end
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Obviously I wasn't there but I'd just like to clarify for anyone as I am well aware of RM's methods, that from what you've said he wasn't just beating the horse for the sake of it, he'll have been spinning the rope at shoulders/quarters/where-ever to get the horse to move away, sometimes you do have to be rough with them to make them safe to be around. Its not just beating them out of temper/with no release.

Slightly off topics but its actually odd, if I asked someone to ride my horse with a rope to use behind the saddle to get him off the leg (I believe its known as a wip ***?) and they told me they wouldn't 'beat' my horse, but then they'd happily use a whip on him, people's perceptions are strange.
 
LouS said:
Obviously I wasn't there but I'd just like to clarify for anyone as I am well aware of RM's methods, that from what you've said he wasn't just beating the horse for the sake of it, he'll have been spinning the rope at shoulders/quarters/where-ever to get the horse to move away, sometimes you do have to be rough with them to make them safe to be around. Its not just beating them out of temper/with no release.

Slightly off topics but its actually odd, if I asked someone to ride my horse with a rope to use behind the saddle to get him off the leg (I believe its known as a wip ***?) and they told me they wouldn't 'beat' my horse, but then they'd happily use a whip on him, people's perceptions are strange.
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^^ Totally agree ^^
 
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