Richard Maxwell vs Intellegent Horsemanship

LouS said:
Obviously I wasn't there but I'd just like to clarify for anyone as I am well aware of RM's methods, that from what you've said he wasn't just beating the horse for the sake of it, he'll have been spinning the rope at shoulders/quarters/where-ever to get the horse to move away, sometimes you do have to be rough with them to make them safe to be around. Its not just beating them out of temper/with no release.
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I saw him work up until that point, with the spinning etc & it was working, he got 'rough' if you prefer with my horse when he had been loading for a short while and then decided he wasn't going to play anymore. He did what he had to do to get my horse to listen to him... call it what you will, like I said I just wasn't expecting to see my horse with sweat running off him and being hit like that and that's why it came as a shock. I'm not hear to knock him, like I said I'd use him again.
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LG's Skivvy said:
LouS said:
Obviously I wasn't there but I'd just like to clarify for anyone as I am well aware of RM's methods, that from what you've said he wasn't just beating the horse for the sake of it, he'll have been spinning the rope at shoulders/quarters/where-ever to get the horse to move away, sometimes you do have to be rough with them to make them safe to be around. Its not just beating them out of temper/with no release.
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I saw him work up until that point, with the spinning etc & it was working, he got 'rough' if you prefer with my horse when he had been loading for a short while and then decided he wasn't going to play anymore. He did what he had to do to get my horse to listen to him... call it what you will, like I said I just wasn't expecting to see my horse with sweat running off him and being hit like that and that's why it came as a shock. I'm not hear to knock him, like I said I'd use him again.
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Oh I wasn't getting at you honestly! I just didn't want the bashing brigade to read it and think he was beating the horse senseless with a stick because he lost his temper. Glad your loading problem was sorted :).

OP I explained a bit earlier, he will work on the ground first then transfer it to ridden. He'll get the horse moving about in all directions, lateral work etc. I remember him explaining to me that all evasions (bucking/rearing/planting) happen when the horses legs are in pairs/together/something or other, so if you can move the shoulders and get him to start crossing his legs you can stop the evasion. That was an awful explanation I'm sorry, but something like that.
 
okay thank you I really want to make sure that I am making the best decision for him. I like the explination. Did he come to you or is it cheaper if you go there????
 
WelshShowCobs said:
it is a PERSONAL experience,i found out 2 weeks after he had been pts,i would NEVER send any horse to him,i would speak with kelly marks or one of her associates.
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So it wasn't actually a personal experience but something you were told about after the horse was PTS?? IE, it was someone else's horse by this time and that was the story they told you? I presume you didnt hear from Richard his interpretation of what happened with the horse? I'm sorry for the horse but im afraid it is hearsay.
 
An RA is a Registered Associate (ie done the exams etc set by IH fronted by Kelly Marks and Monty Roberts
I can't recommend Richard Maxwell highly enough he never ' beat my horse' and his riding was sensitive and he was good at explaining what he was doing and how to continue with my young horse.
The RA I had out didn't ride the horse I asked her to help me with riding on and worked on the ground and with longlines didn't 'teach' as such and kept saying I should buy a round pen (several thousand pounds and in our area needing planning permission) even though I had a really nice professional built riding arena to use.
I wanted someone to hep with the riding the horse so felt I was wasting my money.
I have also met and seen Kelly Marks work and I didn't warm to her.
I felt she used the dually halter very very strongly yanking on it and seemed obsessed with getting horses out of her space .
These are my opinions and observed by me not hearsay.
 
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horselib said:
An RA is a Registered Associate (ie done the exams etc set by IH fronted by Kelly Marks and Monty Roberts
I can't recommend Richard Maxwell highly enough he never ' beat my horse' and his riding was sensitive and he was good at explaining what he was doing and how to continue with my young horse.
The RA I had out didn't ride the horse I asked her to help me with riding on and worked on the ground and with longlines did 'eah' as such and kept saying I should buy a round pen (several thousand pounds and in our area needing planning permission) even though I had a really nice professional built riding arena to use.
I wanted someone to hep with the riding the horse so felt I was wasting my money.
I have also met and seen Kelly Marks work and I didn't warm to her.
I felt she used the dually halter very very strongly yanking on it and seemed obsessed with getting horses out of her space .
These are my opinions and observed by me not hearsay.
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Thank you very much I really appreciate this input
 
Sorry just to throw a spanner in the works have you had a vet to check your horse out as my mare suddenly started to behave this way and it turns out she has mild hock athritis and SI problems and now she has been injected she is good again.

And Ive only heard good things about RM!

And too the person knocking him (welsh something), I know this isnt a very new lounge way of thinking but there are worse things than horses being pts!
 
Holidays_are_coming said:
Sorry just to throw a spanner in the works have you had a vet to check your horse out as my mare suddenly started to behave this way and it turns out she has mild hock athritis and SI problems and now she has been injected she is good again.

And Ive only heard good things about RM!

And too the person knocking him (welsh something), I know this isnt a very new lounge way of thinking but there are worse things than horses being pts!
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Thank you for your input!
Yes a full clean bill of heath here! He has had it all done and sees a physio every 3 months and has got a brand new saddle fitted
 
WelshShowCobs said:
i would not recommend him.i sold my horse to a lady as he was way too much for me and she promised him a home for life,he went to a sanctuary then to richard,i told them he needed starting from basics as he did nothing with me as he was too much.

within a week they got on him and trying walk trot and canter,he threw a hissyfit and richard advised he was dangerous and to pts.if they had restarted him on the lunge,long lines carefully he would have been fine.

i hold him personally responsible for that horses death.and wont even buy a magazine with him in it now.
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wow that's some claim!!
out of interest what was the time scale between you rehoming the horse and it being PTS? did you actually speak to RM about his advice to have it PTS or is that just what the owner told you happened?
i can't understand why you hold him responsible:confused: just because he may (or may not) have advised for the horse to be PTS surely the actual responsibility lies with the owner, it was their decision at the end of the day not RM's.
 
Holidays_are_coming said:
Sorry just to throw a spanner in the works have you had a vet to check your horse out as my mare suddenly started to behave this way and it turns out she has mild hock athritis and SI problems and now she has been injected she is good again.

And Ive only heard good things about RM!

And too the person knocking him (welsh something), I know this isnt a very new lounge way of thinking but there are worse things than horses being pts!
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Good point..also, given the poster in question confirms that they are/were a novice, I would think RM would have more knowledge of what was the right thing by the horse that she did or does, not that I believe for a minute that he did recommend PTS, more like the owner felt guilty that'd they'd promised a home for life and so blamed their decisions on someone else's advice.
 
MickeyMoo said:
Richard Maxwell without a doubt. We had him out years ago to help with loading problems. We learnt so much in the time he was with us. You are left with homework and he supported me on the phone. He will also come back out to you if you are really struggling.

I always say I wouldn't have my horse now if it wasn't for RM.
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This.

I bought a broken horse mentally and physically despite 3 trials and 5 star vetting ( vet was struck off but thats another story ).

Without RM my horse would have been PTS as dangerous.

Have seen Kelly demo's and haven't been totally impressed.
 
I got Richard out to my horse a large warmblood who could be a bolshy big sod for loading and who i couldnt box, he either reared and threw himself to the ground, or would try to leap onto you on the ramp or in the box, then reverse at speed back down the ramp.
Richard was great with him, did he swing the rope directly at him when he was being attacked by my horse, damm tooting he did, and i had no objections to it, he did it when the horse was being aggressive with him, it wasnt a beating about the head, neck, but it was a very firm, get out of my space smack, and the horse responded very well to it, he only needed to do it a couple of times.
Id have to say Richard gave me the tools to effectively work with a horse who others had told me was dangerous and should be pts, he was only 5 and the work Richard did with him made him the better horse for it imo.
While he can still ( rarely )has his moments, i deal with them as taught by Richard, and the horse, boxes first time even years later. Hes retired through lameness issues now and hadnt been in the box for over 2 yrs when i moved yards last year, he ran up the ramp like a pro, then turned and waited to be tied and the partition put over, so without any doubt id use Richard again if i had horse behaviour/work issues i was struggling with
 
WelshShowCobs said:
Because he was not right for me.as ive explained he didnt bond with me much as i tried.so wether he was suitable to ride or not he wasnt bonding with me.

Its horrible and the main reason why i will NEVER sell another horse.

so if you sold a horse with issues that you didnt have time/experience/or money to deal with and instead of giving said horse the time the new owner promise and instead pts would you not be a bit upset?

And yes tbh pts was possibly the best option for him as i dont have to worry.

The main point of me posting was explaining that they knew he was high tempered and knew he had issues and should have had alot of groudwork done,but instead they rushed it.
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I too am sorry that you experienced this. I have seen the other side of this coin, where it was recommended a horse be PTS because it was dangerous and the advice ignored because owner would lose money. This horse also came across as having a few issues, after it put the first trainer in hospital, suddenly attacking whilst being lunged, a vet and the trainer recommended PTS. It was moved to another very experienced trainer who it then attacked suddenly whilst being lunged, and almost killed him. The owner eventually tried to sell it to a dealer so that it could be put through the sales and be sold to someone like me, for my then 12 year old daughter. The dealer got it for nothing in the end and, thank god, took the horse straight to the knackers yard and so it never got the chance to attack a child. If the woman you sold the horse to didn't keep her promise then just be glad that he was pts rather than simply sold on to kill or injure somebody or dragged from sale to sale until ending up with the meat man. I do not believe that RM would recommend that action for nothing, he loves and totally respects horses, surely it is the woman you sold to rather than RM you should feel bitterness towards.
 
I would recommend RM over KM and any IH associates. I have dealt with both and was not at all put at ease by KM. It's all a bit too fluffy. I also rate Micheal Peace. I would suggest that if you didn't go with RM that you find a decent horseperson (note not natural horseperson) as IMHO I believe there was only good and bad horsemanship, these can be found by asking about.
WelshShowCobs, I believe you should blame yourself. You admit that it was not an ideal situation. I too found myself in a very similar situation. In the end I had two option sell the horse back to his breeder (at a considerable loss) or PTS as I could not bear the thought of him being passed on and on and suffering long term. Harsh as it sounds being PTS is sometimes the kindest option but it is a very hard one to make and a lot of people can't do it. Fortunately for my last horse, his breeder saw it from my POV and had him back, he is now hunting and nannying weanlings and accompanying liveries on hacks out. He loves it there, it was just never going to work in the situation I had found myself in.
To OP good luck, I am sure that you can sort something out, you have come this far.
 
I'd go with Richard Maxwell - I've seen him work with some very difficult horses and just as importantly he also works very well with their owners - excellent communication and loads of tips/tools given so they can continue to improve. Just be aware that you will have lots of homework, some it time consuming and repetitive to do! Yes, he can be tough on a bolshy horse (not beating btw) but I would trust his judgement to decide when a horse is nervous or when it is just being a toad. He is expensive but I think, in the long run it evens out - one or two visits from him @£300ish or ten from someone else at £50 - £100...

I've only ever seen KM work in clinics and can't really find anything wrong with what she does but on the other hand IH does seem to be much more of a 'one type fits all' IMHO. Also some (not all) of the IH associates don't inspire confidence, again JMHO.

ETA. Whether he did or didn't recommend PTS for the horse further up the thread, I really wish MORE trainers had the guts to suggest it for very difficult animals if the alternative is to be passed on to yet another home.The horse above proved the point, often made on here that even if you disclose all the problems and no matter what the buyers may promise and truly mean as they do that difficult horses are still at risk of that downward spiral.
 
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WelshShowCobs said:
sorry to upset everyone,i was disabled,now a new hip,when i got him he was very calm,almost doped some would say but this last a few months,and then he was not happy and i realised i couldnt handle him.

i was scared,someone came along and promised hima forever home,he went to the sanctuary as a livery and pretty much lived out,then went to rm,under her new owner.

he would have dealt with work again probably fine.yes he was ok ridden when i bought him but unfortunatly nerves got the best of me and i was too scared to ride him.

i had a welsh cob who was not first ridden pony for myself but i didnt want to sell her.the dealer saw me coming and took the ****.

yeah i do feel bad but i dont feel responsible.i tried everything with him and no money was spared,no i didnt get a medical screening,im sorry it evaded me,i have the dentist,vet and physio with a brand new saddle fitted for him,not made to measure but fitted.

has nobody else been overhorsed and scared?i was!a lady came along and told me forever home and if he was ridden he would have been a field ornament.how stupid of me to believe this.

i stand firm on this,i would NEVER use him and i would NEVER recommend anyone to him,everyone to their own opinions.

and btw yes i have met him,when he did a demo with this horse before he went to his yard and i wasnt very impressed then.

fine maybe i should have rang him or whatever,i have gone off what i was told.

and as ive already said I WAS A NOVICE OWNER WHO WAS DISABLED!

if i was who i am now i probably would have been fine but i wasnt,i needed help,shame on me for trying to get that help.
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I just do not understand why you blame RM for the euthanasia of a dangerous horse when you are in absolutely no position to say that the horse WAS fixable. If a little longlining and lunging was all it took, then Im sure you would not have sold the horse, furthermore, the last owner/sanctuary must have been sufficiently supportive of RMs assesment to make such a decision, this is not something that people entertain lightly. Furthermore if you agree that perhaps the more responsible thing for you to do was PTS, not pass the buck, then why on earth berate another individual for the same call?

If the horse was a 'dope' for a number of months with you than what happened whilst in your possession to cause this dramatic change? The horse was dangerous, this is not RMs fault, and whoever suggested PTS and whoever made that decision is not at fault for that. there are far worse fates.


OP, someone mentioned Michael Peace, I personally am a great fan of his work, I also love KM's style and approach.
 
I've no experience of KM but I did use RM. My advice would be don't waste your £400 on an afternoon, send the horse to a good pro and get ongoing support. Much more value for money IME.
 
Flame, Max does give ongoing support.
My vote is for Max - I've arranged three "Learning Days" over the years and thoroughly enjoyed each one and we all learnt tons. He constantly is giving advice and (horse) sensible tips and is very calm and patient, the horses just respond straight away to his leadership. He is great for handling or ridden problems - he events his own and other owners horses so is experienced at competition preparation etc or at the other end of the scale, can tame your cheeky bloshy ponies who drag you around.
You won't waste your money with Max, he's worth every penny.
 
Hi!!
Again thank you again for your input!! I currently have lessons on a regular basis with a listed judge who is highly reccomended and who I get on very well with. This is something extra to do with him xx
 
Laafet said:
I would recommend RM over KM and any IH associates. I have dealt with both and was not at all put at ease by KM. It's all a bit too fluffy. I also rate Micheal Peace. I would suggest that if you didn't go with RM that you find a decent horseperson (note not natural horseperson) as IMHO I believe there was only good and bad horsemanship, these can be found by asking about.
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I have heard fantastic reviews on Micheal Peace.

I also find RM very helpful and polite, when I approached both regarding a clinc/youngster issues i found KM wasn't interested and RM was friendly and offered great support.
I am friends with both on Facebook and that's a good source for information.
 
Flame_ said:
I've no experience of KM but I did use RM. My advice would be don't waste your £400 on an afternoon, send the horse to a good pro and get ongoing support. Much more value for money IME.
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Again,i think that depends on your point of view, imo it was the best money i spent on my horse and his education
 
I haven't had either an RA or RM out to my horse, but just wanted to say whenever the name Richard Maxwell comes up I remember an article in Your Horse looong ago and RM was working with the most impressively (scary) high rearing horse I have ever seen. Hats off to him for riding that horse, obviously they are only going to publish the good stories and in a good light, but he seemed to really improve the horse's attitude to work in a short time frame.
 
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