Ridden gadgets for giraffe horses... Yes or no???

[wench]

Just been thinking about this today. My nag can do a pretty good impression of a giraffe at times, especially when nervous/tense.

When she shoves her head up, she cramps up her back as well, which is really not what we need (she has ongoing physio work), so this is turn makes it all worse as she's making herself sore over the back.

Once she's in giraffe mode it's very hard to get any sense out of her. Obviously in an ideal situation, this wouldn't happen.

More out of interest than anything else, would you use a "gadget" in this sort of situation to help? Would it do any good? Obviuously it would be stupid to put it on for the first time in a stressful situation, but if the horse was used to the action of it, would it be of any benefit?

 

[Dusty85]

Hmmm... I'm on the fence for this one!

I think when the correct one is used in the right way (and I don't personally feel comfortable putting anything on myself other than a Pessoa or bungie) then they can be very useful. And, I suppose they would be better than harsh hands trying to wrench their heads down.

But I have the view that most things can be accomplished without one. I wouldn't want horse to be taught bad habits trying to evade the training aid, that was put on to sort a different thing out.

The bottom line is I'm reluctant to use them I think!

 

[be positive]

I have ridden all summer in running reins on the horse I have been rehabbing, as he got fitter and more sharp we were starting to get into trouble with him sticking his head up and running through the bridle, having to walk then carefully introduce short trots on a fresh horse, trying to keep him safe became difficult so the running reins went on. I have them under one finger most of the time, totally loose and he is on a longish rein but if he starts to get stressy or I feel him beginning to get his head up I can pick them up and gain control really quickly, I rarely need them now as he is doing more and is easier to settle as we can trot for a decent length of time but they served the purpose when required, obviously not schooling as such but it has also helped with the contact issues he has always had, he no longer goes deep to avoid the contact, contrary to what would be expected as I can use a stronger leg and seat to ride him up to the bit.

 

[JillA]

I hate gadgets with a passion - the only ones I can possibly be persuaded to use are those that if fitted correctly the horse punishes himself, such as a well fitted standing martingale, and just occasionally a Market Harborough.
For giraffe horses it means that she isn't engaging her hindquarters, end of. Ride her on a light but steady contact on circles and serpentines - as her hind legs step under to take the weight on the circle she will HAVE to bring her head and neck down to balance herself. Build on that to build up the correct muscles, and then consolidate by lifting your hands to ask for long and low. Most people think that is wrong, but the current fashion for holding hands low means the fulcrum effect leads to heads ever higher and higher. Try it. At halt, with a light contact, lift your hands to about 2ft above the front of your saddle and watch what your horse does.
And to ask for her to relax her jaw and "give you her mouth" as Philippe Karl describes it so well, flex to one side then the other until she softens. Soft jaws and giraffe postures do not go together.

 

[atlantis]

I totally agree JillA. I have just stated riding a share horse who does a great Giraffe impression who "won't" do dressage. Owner has every gadget. Bungie, running reins, harbridge, Pessoa for lunging. Still has her ears in your face. I took the single jointed nut cracker bit or the three ring snaffle out of her mouth and her running martingale off. Removed the grackle or flash. (Depending on which bridle I used) did lots of circles Serpentes and a little lateral work (leg yeilding and shoulder fore) to get her stepping under all with carried allowing hands... Hey presto her ears are out of my face and she is working pretty well. It's a work in progress and we started at walk and have progressed to trotting for longer periods. She stretches beautifully during breaks but if I did try to force her head down the opposite effect would occur I'm sure.

Get a good instructor!!! It takes a while to find one but now I have mine I'm not letting him out if my grasp!!!

 

[AusRider]

Having ridden and retrained a number of sensitive, hot horses who put their heads in the air, I would say no to gadgets as well. A horse who is nervous and tense needs retraining to lose the nervousness and tension, not a gadget. As suggested circles, serpentines and lateral work are the way to go. And make sure you are riding the horse forward, which will feel counter-intuitive, but does work. If you are not confident enough to do this on you own, do it under the watchful eye of an instructor.

While you are doing those exercises, make sure you are breathing, long deep regular breaths, which reduces the tension in you, and so your horse will relax even further. My last horse was a tense sensitive TB who also held the tension in his back, and my breathing helped him enormously to relax.

 

[khalswitz]

I hate gadgets with a passion - the only ones I can possibly be persuaded to use are those that if fitted correctly the horse punishes himself, such as a well fitted standing martingale, and just occasionally a Market Harborough.
For giraffe horses it means that she isn't engaging her hindquarters, end of. Ride her on a light but steady contact on circles and serpentines - as her hind legs step under to take the weight on the circle she will HAVE to bring her head and neck down to balance herself. Build on that to build up the correct muscles, and then consolidate by lifting your hands to ask for long and low. Most people think that is wrong, but the current fashion for holding hands low means the fulcrum effect leads to heads ever higher and higher. Try it. At halt, with a light contact, lift your hands to about 2ft above the front of your saddle and watch what your horse does.
And to ask for her to relax her jaw and "give you her mouth" as Philippe Karl describes it so well, flex to one side then the other until she softens. Soft jaws and giraffe postures do not go together.

Interestingly, I have found the exact opposite with my ex-racer who can be a bit giraffey at times - if I raise my hands above normal, it lifts his head. He softens and lowers by me riding him back to front, getting him moving forward (but not flopping on the forehand) and getting him to use his back end by doing right angle turns/shoulderin on circle/quarters out on circle.

However, when I started him, he was dead in the mouth and would RUN with his head in the air. He was also dead to the leg which made schooling tricky... so I had to get strong and ride him into a completely immobile contact - if his head came up I didn't let me hands go with. He soon learned that it was easier to go long and low than fight me very step with his head in the air. He was still heavy in the hand, but down rather than up - and it's a lot easier to work then on the engagement and teach them to lighten once they aren't actively fighting you up in the air.

I didn't personally use gadgets with him, but if I had it would have been at the first step, when establishing that down is better than up. It doesnt replace proper training, and god forbid you use gadgets to try and get an outline - thats not what they should do at all. However it helps in those first stages when a poorly trained horse is determined that it won't try to lower the head at all. I personally think teaching a horse to engage and lighten the front end is easier than trying to get a behind-the-bridle but engaged horse to relax into the contact.

I read a great book by Anthony Crossley about training young horses, and it stuck with me when he said that the first step is getting balance, forwardness softness with the horse slightly on the forehand, and then you can teach him to engage the hindquarters without fighting himself.

When I'm jumping its a different matter - I use a running martingale. He can evade the contact right at the moment I need it, and to the people who say don't let him jump when he throws his head up, I say I refuse to pull out a horse who is close and locked on, as it teaches bad habits! We work so hard to teach them to lock on! So I have the extra control with the martingale for that. If he was worse, I would consider a harborough, but he doesn't need it right now.

 

[TarrSteps]

Interestingly, I have found the exact opposite with my ex-racer who can be a bit giraffey at times - if I raise my hands above normal, it lifts his head. He softens and lowers by me riding him back to front, getting him moving forward (but not flopping on the forehand) and getting him to use his back end by doing right angle turns/shoulderin on circle/quarters out on circle.

However, when I started him, he was dead in the mouth and would RUN with his head in the air. He was also dead to the leg which made schooling tricky... so I had to get strong and ride him into a completely immobile contact - if his head came up I didn't let me hands go with. He soon learned that it was easier to go long and low than fight me very step with his head in the air. He was still heavy in the hand, but down rather than up - and it's a lot easier to work then on the engagement and teach them to lighten once they aren't actively fighting you up in the air.

I didn't personally use gadgets with him, but if I had it would have been at the first step, when establishing that down is better than up. It doesnt replace proper training, and god forbid you use gadgets to try and get an outline - thats not what they should do at all. However it helps in those first stages when a poorly trained horse is determined that it won't try to lower the head at all. I personally think teaching a horse to engage and lighten the front end is easier than trying to get a behind-the-bridle but engaged horse to relax into the contact.

I read a great book by Anthony Crossley about training young horses, and it stuck with me when he said that the first step is getting balance, forwardness softness with the horse slightly on the forehand, and then you can teach him to engage the hindquarters without fighting himself.

When I'm jumping its a different matter - I use a running martingale. He can evade the contact right at the moment I need it, and to the people who say don't let him jump when he throws his head up, I say I refuse to pull out a horse who is close and locked on, as it teaches bad habits! We work so hard to teach them to lock on! So I have the extra control with the martingale for that. If he was worse, I would consider a harborough, but he doesn't need it right now.

Tbf, the success of that method is at least partly determined by the specific horse and sometimes it can be a long time before you know for sure. I'm pretty sure it's also somewhat determined by the rider's preferences as well. I don't like horses that lean/pull so I tend to avoid that at all costs, at least with specific horses, as I have not found it's always easy to fix! That said, feel is impossible to accurately discuss on an Internet forum and it may very well be that my "elastic, consistent contact" is someone else's "too heavy" and vice versa.

I had an interesting conversation with a German trainer who had relocated to North America on this subject. He was saying how he has always been taught to school the horses he rode during his education - mostly old style warmbloods, not that far from the plough - very low/deep/round/whatever we're allowed to say now in training and then "pop them up" for more advanced work, competition etc. So he did the same with the TBs he initially worked with in NA. . .and then found that they wouldn't come up! So he used the philosophy and practices for a system designed for quite specific types and, not surprisingly, found it did not apply universally.

This also applies to the situation. Horses that jump and gallop as part of their work week can take different riding than ones that mainly "do dressage" as for at least half the time they practice going in a totally different way. This provides "cross training" benefits but also means there is a constant cycle of schooling and reschooling, rather than a strictly linear progression.

This is not to say it's "wrong" or "right", more to say that there is more than one road to Rome and it is impossible to predict which way MIGHT ŵork most effectively towards the desired end without seeing the individual and the whole situation.

 

[khalswitz]

Tbf, the success of that method is at least partly determined by the specific horse and sometimes it can be a long time before you know for sure. I'm pretty sure it's also somewhat determined by the rider's preferences as well. I don't like horses that lean/pull so I tend to avoid that at all costs, at least with specific horses, as I have not found it's always easy to fix! That said, feel is impossible to accurately discuss on an Internet forum and it may very well be that my "elastic, consistent contact" is someone else's "too heavy" and vice versa.

I had an interesting conversation with a German trainer who had relocated to North America on this subject. He was saying how he has always been taught to school the horses he rode during his education - mostly old style warmbloods, not that far from the plough - very low/deep/round/whatever we're allowed to say now in training and then "pop them up" for more advanced work, competition etc. So he did the same with the TBs he initially worked with in NA. . .and then found that they wouldn't come up! So he used the philosophy and practices for a system designed for quite specific types and, not surprisingly, found it did not apply universally.

This also applies to the situation. Horses that jump and gallop as part of their work week can take different riding than ones that mainly "do dressage" as for at least half the time they practice going in a totally different way. This provides "cross training" benefits but also means there is a constant cycle of schooling and reschooling, rather than a strictly linear progression.

This is not to say it's "wrong" or "right", more to say that there is more than one road to Rome and it is impossible to predict which way MIGHT ŵork most effectively towards the desired end without seeing the individual and the whole situation.

Completely agree - its about the horse and rider you have in front of you. Hence why I shared my different approach to JillA's - to show that different approaches can work.

Like I said, personally I find it easier to teach a heavy horse to come light than a horse behind the contact to come into it - completely personal preference but I find a horse who can't take a contact the worst kind of horse to ride. My horse, even a year on and starting to really lighten up and engage and work well now, is a horse who likes to know his rider is there - he likes a contact, even when not heavy. So the method I described would be completely wrong for a horse who doesn't - would teach them to come behind the contact, in the way that the hand lifting just taught my boy to run with his head in the air because he likes to follow my hands.

Also interesting you say about the WBs - my lad works much more like a sharp WB than a TB, plus he's huge (17hh and people always mistake him for an ISH/WB he's so chunky) so takes very different riding to a small, light tb I think.

Agree totally about the jumping as well - obviously they go in a different way for each phase, so his training is very rounded and not too intense in each phase, with each one teaching him something different.

My point though with relation to the ops query was regarding gadgets - I think they have their uses, particularly when retraining either poorly schooled horses or those with issues. For example a friends horse had a ks op, and was ridden in draw reins as part of her rehab to give her no option of giraffing to help her back.

 

[Kokopelli]

I think it also depends on the time you have. It took a good 8 months for my tense, hyper horse to lower his head because I refused to use gadgets on him. It probably would have come quicker with a better rider though.

Some horses I ride for owners need them sold asap as can't afford to keep paying schooling fees. A couple of session with draw reins to guide the head down doesn't do any harm. I ride in them with a knot so only need to pick them up on occasions and I ride with them like they're the curb rein on a double. The longest it has taken is two sessions like this to achieve a forward, straight horse with the beginning of an outline who could go out and do a good prelim test.

 

[wench]

My horse NEEDS to be ridden round to help stretch the muscles over her back. This doesn't always mean outline, but not inverted as she does when tense.

She is well used to going round, as she had been ridden properly, so the muscles are there. There are issues with her getting nervy, which are being worked on.

 

[TarrSteps]

Just to clarify, I am not advocating riding a horse intentionally inverted/tense/behind the hand and leg, merely that those things don't necessarily have anything to do with where the head and neck are. There are plenty of horses going with their necks down(ish) and noses in, with tight 'down' backs. There are others that are a bit 'nose up and out' but soft in the back, consistent in the hand and only a tiny bit of strength and suppleness away from being able to pick the base of the neck up and take that next step towards a more mature way of going.

The use of training aids isn't an ethical or theoretical consideration, it's a practical one. Does x practice help the horse at this stage? Does the rider fully understand both how to use the aid and what it is being used for? Is the rider skilled enough to use the aid? Is the horse ready for the new demands? Is there any other reason why the horse is not complying? What are the risks and the rewards? Because there are ALWAYS risks and rewards. As a general rule, if the rider doesn't know what these are for any given piece of equipment then they shouldn't be using it without the input of someone who does.

The irony is said advisor can probably instruct them how to get the desired result a number of ways, including by not using the aid at all!

 

[khalswitz]

Just to clarify, I am not advocating riding a horse intentionally inverted/tense/behind the hand and leg, merely that those things don't necessarily have anything to do with where the head and neck are. There are plenty of horses going with their necks down(ish) and noses in, with tight 'down' backs. There are others that are a bit 'nose up and out' but soft in the back, consistent in the hand and only a tiny bit of strength and suppleness away from being able to pick the base of the neck up and take that next step towards a more mature way of going.

I agree, but when a horse is 'giraffing', it is both inverted and evading the contact - usually for a reason. I have found that trying to solve this requires solving two problems - and it is which you solve first, the contact evasion or the inverted back. I've already said how it worked for me and my particular horse - we solved the active battle against the contact first, and then I could actually RIDE him and start to work on changing his way of going. Would draw reins/a harborough have made it quicker? Very possibly. But I had all winter to work away, getting him fitter at the same time so that he could cope when I did ask him to start using his back and then engaging the hindquarters and lightening the front end.

If your horse is soft and supple and working well in the contact, it doesn't matter where his head is. But most horses that are going like giraffes aren't just above the vertical and working well like a nicely produced youngster who is just immature. There's usually a reason, and therefore you are re-training rather than training as you would a nice, unspoilt baby.

 

[BeckyD]

My horse NEEDS to be ridden round to help stretch the muscles over her back. This doesn't always mean outline, but not inverted as she does when tense.

She is well used to going round, as she had been ridden properly, so the muscles are there. There are issues with her getting nervy, which are being worked on.

To be honest I can't see what harm you could do using an artificial aid correctly to encourage your horse to work in the way it knows it should be but is avoiding due to tension, as it is to help the good of the horse in a very specific circumstance here. You are competent enough to know it's got to come from behind but if the head is in the clouds it will prevent the back end from engaging. I used to have an ex-racer who could do this when tense and it was a vicious circle.

It's at least worth a try. Most horses' anxiety levels will drop if their head drops, so if you can get their head down the tension will probably evaporate anyway. If it doesn't work/makes the tension worse then take it off and go back to the drawing board.

Most people are quite happy to slap a Pessoa on and I'm afraid I don't see the difference between that and say draw reins used correctly by a skilled rider.

And I say that as someone who doesn't use draw reins etc, but there are circumstances in which I would.

 

[Bernster]

I'm in a similar position in some ways OP - giraffe tendencies when she's excited. I did think about the equiami riding aid but didn't come across anyone who seemed to have used the riding aid as opposed to the lunging aid.

I've been having more regular lessons instead and upping the school work - doesn't always work when we're jumping/xc but it's def improved and i feel like we are going in the right direction, so I plan to carry on like this, without using a gadget.

 

[whizzer]

I have a giraffe horse,bought as 2 year old & was like it from when I first started work with him. In the end it was just schooling & lots of lessons with an excellent instructor that got results. He was so bad he used to reduce me to tears of frustration when he was a youngster as I really struggled to get through to him. We got there in the end though. He's in his late teens now & still reverts to it if he loses his balance or gets distracted but he now doesn't have the huge bulky muscle under his neck that he used to have & I know exactly what to do to correct it & he knows I can easily correct it so he doesn't try assume giraffe for more than about 1-2 seconds! He's always been prone to doing it when hacking as well so for years I hacked in a Market Harborough for safety sake as he'd do it & spin to run off if he saw something that spooked him. I then discovered a Pelham was even better to hack him in as he loves it & I can catch him before he starts trying to stick his head up.

 

[chestnut cob]

I agree, but when a horse is 'giraffing', it is both inverted and evading the contact - usually for a reason. I have found that trying to solve this requires solving two problems - and it is which you solve first, the contact evasion or the inverted back. I've already said how it worked for me and my particular horse - we solved the active battle against the contact first, and then I could actually RIDE him and start to work on changing his way of going. Would draw reins/a harborough have made it quicker? Very possibly. But I had all winter to work away, getting him fitter at the same time so that he could cope when I did ask him to start using his back and then engaging the hindquarters and lightening the front end.

If your horse is soft and supple and working well in the contact, it doesn't matter where his head is. But most horses that are going like giraffes aren't just above the vertical and working well like a nicely produced youngster who is just immature. There's usually a reason, and therefore you are re-training rather than training as you would a nice, unspoilt baby.

This describes my horse completely. I've never had one like this before but in his case, things had to be approached the opposite way around. Sitting on him with a nice soft contact, pushing him forwards, just resulted in being taken off with and a big fight. Upside down neck, braced back, fighting the contact. Or tucking his head to his chest, sucking back so he dipped at the withers and back, over reacting to leg and general rudeness, pulling you around... So the contact issue had to be sorted out first, and we needed to get some control of the front. What's the point of sending something forwards if it makes things worse? If you rode him forwards, he just sped up and dipped his back even further. For a period of time, he needed a fixed, firm contact to work into and it could be quite a battle. I tried the nice approach of doing it all softly, it got nowhere. I tried it for months and things got worse, not better. In the case of this horse, the approach above worked. Over time, he slowed down, he stopped fighting, he accepted the contact and now I am able to ride him forwards. He's learning to engage his HQs. My YO/instructor rides him once or twice a week for me - I watched her ride him at the weekend, first time in ages I've seen her. When she first started riding him in the summer, she did a lot of LDR work with him which I was unsure about, but trusted her suggestion. Now, she isn't using that much, if at all, and he's working properly. I know he feels better when I ride him, but it was nice to see someone else on board. The whole picture is so much softer. He is slowly losing the muscle under his neck and developing the correct topline. He is developing the right muscles in his HQs and beginning to build up behind the saddle, where he was very weak. Now he looks like he is starting to come up from the wither, really pushing from behind and is engaging his abdominals, but this wasn't possible for him a few months ago. He accepts the contact and he has a nice mouth now too.

I/we don't use any ridden gadgets on him, he doesn't need it. However, alongside the ridden work, I do a LOT of pole work on the lunge/long reins with him, in hand schooling (he has gone from being a horse who would would kick out if you asked him to use his inside leg, to developing a rather nice SI on the ground but it's been a slow process). He is lunged once or twice a week and I DO use gadets. I've tried the Kavalkade draw reins between legs and over the withers setup but it did nothing for him, so I use side reins between the legs. I quite like the look of the Equi-Ami but haven't used one.

 

[khalswitz]

This describes my horse completely. I've never had one like this before but in his case, things had to be approached the opposite way around. Sitting on him with a nice soft contact, pushing him forwards, just resulted in being taken off with and a big fight. Upside down neck, braced back, fighting the contact. Or tucking his head to his chest, sucking back so he dipped at the withers and back, over reacting to leg and general rudeness, pulling you around... So the contact issue had to be sorted out first, and we needed to get some control of the front. What's the point of sending something forwards if it makes things worse? If you rode him forwards, he just sped up and dipped his back even further. For a period of time, he needed a fixed, firm contact to work into and it could be quite a battle. I tried the nice approach of doing it all softly, it got nowhere. I tried it for months and things got worse, not better. In the case of this horse, the approach above worked. Over time, he slowed down, he stopped fighting, he accepted the contact and now I am able to ride him forwards. He's learning to engage his HQs. My YO/instructor rides him once or twice a week for me - I watched her ride him at the weekend, first time in ages I've seen her. When she first started riding him in the summer, she did a lot of LDR work with him which I was unsure about, but trusted her suggestion. Now, she isn't using that much, if at all, and he's working properly. I know he feels better when I ride him, but it was nice to see someone else on board. The whole picture is so much softer. He is slowly losing the muscle under his neck and developing the correct topline. He is developing the right muscles in his HQs and beginning to build up behind the saddle, where he was very weak. Now he looks like he is starting to come up from the wither, really pushing from behind and is engaging his abdominals, but this wasn't possible for him a few months ago. He accepts the contact and he has a nice mouth now too.

I/we don't use any ridden gadgets on him, he doesn't need it. However, alongside the ridden work, I do a LOT of pole work on the lunge/long reins with him, in hand schooling (he has gone from being a horse who would would kick out if you asked him to use his inside leg, to developing a rather nice SI on the ground but it's been a slow process). He is lunged once or twice a week and I DO use gadets. I've tried the Kavalkade draw reins between legs and over the withers setup but it did nothing for him, so I use side reins between the legs. I quite like the look of the Equi-Ami but haven't used one.

My boy has had a huge change... went from looking like a typical lanky TB to being routinely mistaken for an ISH or WB, and all the muscle on the underside had to disappear before he could build top line, and ofc the quality of work has improved alongside the topline building!! I got him at the start of November last year, looking like this:

Started working him in December, building it all up slowly. He looked like this in May, when we first went SJ, doing an excited giraffe impression (by this point he only did it when jumping, and we have almost ironed it out completely now even jumping, so took a long time!) This was just before we also cracked his PSSM, which let us actually feed for muscle growth!!

Him in July, doing Hunter classes - although those are far too exciting, won't be doing that again... we are a bit on the forehand in this one but I'm trying not to let him tank off bucking like he did about 30 second before this was taken...

This was taken either tail end of August or early September, a friend of mine was having a go. He is still muscling up now and has an even better rump now!

So you can see the difference... it isn't the 'proper' way of doing things but like TS said there are many roads to Rome and whilst I would never use a gadget on a baby that was just immature and needed to develop, they can be useful in helping a horse with issues, like most giraffe horses have...

 

[TheHairyOne]

My sister has a KS horse, but not deemed bad enough for surgery, so had everything else done.

He's ridden in a loose Market Harborough (he's on loan) for flatwork as he'll giraffe given half a chance and it's not good for him. So for his own sake he wears it. Now, with a fab rider, he's got the strength to work correctly without anything but a simple snaffle, but the gadget means he's not doing himself any harm when people who might not be able to get a tune out of him ride him. He's never been an easy horse, and his brain melts if he's out at parties, but he's content and happy at home in this set up.

 

[Countrychic]

I've had 2 recently that have come to me with very high head carriages. Both were show jumpers. In both cases the saddles were very badly fitted and both horses needed physio. I used draw reins to get them to lower their heads but not to bring their noses in at all. The idea was to teach them long and low. Both also were lunged in a Pessoa fitted very loosely. They now go on a soft outline, probably not good for a test but very relaxed and using their backs properly. I think the saddles and back played a huge part in training them but the extra aids certainly helped because I think often horses get in a "can't" frame of mind until you show them it doesn't hurt anymore.
Just to add neither wear draw reins now, it was a very temporary measure

 

[Pigeon]

No, I know it depends on the hands on the end of the reins, but I have yet to find a ridden gadget that doesn't force an outline! (which a horse can do without softening or working through it's back at all)

I used draw reins for a few days on mine when he decided he was very scared of a certain road marking, and that he would rear every time I tried to make him go over it. It did stop the rearing, but he developed a horrible leaning habit that took weeks to fix - and I was using them very carefully and sparingly, and making sure he was going forwards and in an open frame.

I've found that the Whittaker Lunging aid (basically a cheaper Pessoa) really helped mine to stretch down, because it works on the whole body rather than just the head, and he is always more loose and supple after a session in it. I would never use anything fixed though (side reins etc) as he can still raise his head in this if he wants to.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no quick fix for the giraffe horse. First you need to build up the topline, so that their natural way of going is better, and then work on schooling.

Here's a pic of him when I got him, that was how he went all the time, even when asked to soften. (so proper giraffe!) And more recent photos are in my sig. It took about two and a half years to get him to this stage.

 

[Tr0uble]

For a quick fix and to allow the rider to avoid the issue.....no.

But if a horse has learned a way of going that is incorrect then you have to be able to teach him somehow and slopping round using all the wrong muscles is not helping the issue at all.

I have, and would again, use a gadget to show the horse (not force into an advanced outline, but to set a boundary that is acceptable to start with) where he SHOULD be. So for example I'd perhaps use draw or running reins to show a giraffe horse where an Intro outline should be (pokey nosed but not 'hollow') then hopefully you can ditch the gadget and work on developing that into a prelim outline, then novice outline...and so on.

There's no point at all in carrying on in the wrong way and strengthening all the wrong muscles. There are times when the horse is working so hard on doing it the wrong way that there's nothing left to listen to the rider!

Of course there are exceptions, people who achieve the same using no gadgets etc....but as long as you're using the right gadget for the right reasons then I see no problem with it. I hate moral objections to gadgets as a blanket opinion almost as much as i hate seeing gadgets over used and in the wrong hands!!!

 

[harrysmum]

Have found this a very interesting and useful discussion. I think it's sometimes hard to make the decision to use a 'gadget' if you want to do it without, but, having said that, there are some really positive examples and comments from people who have achieved their goals by using gadgets in a sensitive and patient way which has clearly benefited the horse - and rider. I'm a person who likes to work without gadgets but I am accepting more and more that the right gadget in the right situation when re training can really help. Thanks everyone fr posting your experiences and to OP for asking the question in the first place.

 

[khalswitz]

Have found this a very interesting and useful discussion. I think it's sometimes hard to make the decision to use a 'gadget' if you want to do it without, but, having said that, there are some really positive examples and comments from people who have achieved their goals by using gadgets in a sensitive and patient way which has clearly benefited the horse - and rider. I'm a person who likes to work without gadgets but I am accepting more and more that the right gadget in the right situation when re training can really help. Thanks everyone fr posting your experiences and to OP for asking the question in the first place.

This is so lovely to read. I respect people who try not to use gadgets - better than overusing or misusing them - but I agree with Tr0uble that it's very frustrating when people say that gadgets are awful and should never be used. I think both lunging and ridden gadgets have their uses in retraining, but funnily enough I think the more experienced you become at using gadgets the less you ultimately need to use them.

Another example of using gadgets that hasn't been mentioned is with child riders. I have in the past, when I've retrained small Welsh A's or B's or Shetlands for children, used things like market harboroughs - the child riders I had to use as crash dummies were good for kids their size, but would still have struggled to ride a stroppy Shetland back to front and up into the bridle to stop it giraffing and bombing off without some help. It was always done under supervision, but meant pony couldn't quite get the better of child. I feel very badly for small end ponies, as they only ever have kids riding them, and never have experienced correct riders riding them, so they don't have the same training as horses, and yet are expected to cope with unbalanced, nervous, inexperienced riders, which is fine when pony is old and a saint, but not so much for young naughty ponies! I know that is controversial, but I've found it helped enormously as pony is getting an element of schooling when ridden rather than just on the lunge - won't ever be the same as a larger pony or horse's correct schooling, but at least it is something.