Ride Judges

[Mithras]

I'm a bit puzzled at the reaction some ride judges have been having to my horse. He's a 17.2 M/W hunter, quite a classic type albeit not perfect (random people stop and comment on what a handsome stamp of a hunter type he is) and more of a showjumper these days. But I enjoy doing the odd RH class with him. However the ride judges really seem to struggle to ride him. Most of them barely ride him at all before bringing him back, one was red faced and puffing, another said she couldn't stop him (although as far as I could see, he did nothing remarkable), a third commented repeatedly on how large he was and how much horse there was.

Now I know he doesn't go perfectly for showing but he isn't naughty, all he does is occasionally take a tiny pull or try to speed up with you - doesn't throw his head up, bolt or anything dramatic, but he's easy enough if you settle him. He certainly doesn't nap or buck when you put your leg on, which some of the horses beating us have done. I should also say that I don't mind being beaten and not winning anything, but the other day we were placed last, behind a coloured cob, an aged veteran horse and a bucker. I just feel that so often, the judges aren't even judging us but discounting us. I don't show at county level in RH and this has been at a mixture of larger and smaller local shows. This even happens in Working Hunters, when you would suppose that his reasonably forward way of going is desirable. Yet we get beaten by horses that have propped and cat jumped from a standstill.

Occasionally, we have got what I would describe as a knowledgeable, more old fashioned type of judge, who isn't looking for a dressage horse, who will ride him and have him going beautifully, and give me useful feedback, and with this type of judge we will usually get a lower place in the RH or win or be second in the workers. Apart from this, it is pretty disheartening. I don't want to school him to go like a dressage horse, he is really well balanced and easy to ride showjumping and if you hold him too tight and don't let him move properly, he goes all crabbed. It would be nice to actually be judged and to get a useful opinion which I can take onto workers.

Why is it that you can get away with all sorts of faults, from not being true to type, to bad conformation faults, even bucking, yet not being very quiet and slow?

 

[mollyh]

Hi. I'm no expert but in Hunter classes manners is extremely important. The judge needs to feel like they can easily pull the horse up while equally working well off the leg. A good hunter needs to gallop and pull up without the horse getting strong. The last thing anyone wants in a hunter is the feeling the horse is going to bolt with them and while you know he isn't going to do that, I can imagine that's the feeling the judges are getting - and it isn't nice! Remember they do not know your horse at all. They want a horse to come back to them politely and not on the second or third request which turns into a battle. There is no point a hunter having great conformation if pulling up is a struggle.

I don't understand the bucking horses being placed higher but it would depend on severity.

Unfortunately at local level, I would imagine, you won't know who is going to be riding your horse. Perhaps you can ask before the show so you get to know who likes your horse or whether he's just never going to be their type.

 

[tls]

I have ring stewarded at local level shows and at local championship shows and the judges and ride judges certainly lacked experience and knowledge. They were even bsps/puk judges. They had no idea what breeds any of the animals were and the ride judge was far from competent. One judge couldnt even tell the difference between whether a horse was trotting or cantering!!!!

 

[Mithras]

Hi. I'm no expert but in Hunter classes manners is extremely important. The judge needs to feel like they can easily pull the horse up while equally working well off the leg. A good hunter needs to gallop and pull up without the horse getting strong. The last thing anyone wants in a hunter is the feeling the horse is going to bolt with them and while you know he isn't going to do that, I can imagine that's the feeling the judges are getting - and it isn't nice! Remember they do not know your horse at all. They want a horse to come back to them politely and not on the second or third request which turns into a battle. There is no point a hunter having great conformation if pulling up is a struggle.

I don't understand the bucking horses being placed higher but it would depend on severity.

Unfortunately at local level, I would imagine, you won't know who is going to be riding your horse. Perhaps you can ask before the show so you get to know who likes your horse or whether he's just never going to be their type.

I totally agree with you! A show hunter should be like that. He doesn't pull up straight away, you have to repeat the aid more strongly. He does always pull up though, and he pulls up well after the gallop (although its very rare round here to be asked to do a gallop). I know this is what I'm being penalised for, but what I can't understand is being penalised for it so heavily compared to other faults which are overlooked. Its also not county level showing, so while I would expect to be penalised for his faults, I wouldn't think they would expect the horse to be totally perfect in all ways at that level.

tbh some of the ride judges seem very nervous. Whats the point in saying to me with trepidation before they even get on "thats a very big horse" - he's a perfectly normal size for a hunter, and not especially overlarge. Obviously I'm used to riding him but even when I went to buy him and sat on him for the first time, I never got the feeling that he was anything other than safe. And I only weigh 8 and a half stones, so I very much doubt he feels terribly strong/hard to stop to others.

Most of the judges round here are in this mould. Its only when you go onto higher level showing that the judges would be from elsewhere, and I don't think we're good enough for higher levels yet. I can pretty much guarantee that a slightly older judge will like him, or a judge from the north of England, but locally a lot of the judges come from a dressage background.

 

[jnb]

Could you please clarify: you say he is a MW Hunter but then go on to say you show him in RH classes?
Confused, sorry.
And echo, local level show rides judges can be hit and miss, but a County level ride judge will expect an obedient, forward going ride with manners and outline. They should not have to "ride" (i.e school) your horse, rather he should go forward until asked to slow and move on when asked.

 

[SmallHunter]

A hunter should pull up first time on the lightest of aids the whole idea of a good ride is that the judge should be able to sit there and with the absolute minimum of effort and aids get a foot perfect ride.
A hunter should be forwards off the leg but it should also pull up the first time the judge asks and the judge should only have to ask lightly.

 

[Dolcé]

He sounds lovely! I would be very tempted to try him at county level just out of interest and see what feedback you get from 'proper' judges, you may be pleasantly surprised at the results too. I have seen so many horses being thrown out at county level for the smallest of bucks and it amazes me that they get placed at local shows, it is such a no no.

 

[fleabittengrey]

I don't show at county level in RH and this has been at a mixture of larger and smaller local shows.
Why is it that you can get away with all sorts of faults, from not being true to type, to bad conformation faults, even bucking, yet not being very quiet and slow?

I don't show at county level in RH and this has been at a mixture of larger and smaller local shows.

Answered your own question there! Becuase if you are not showing under any societies rules, you are not going under a panel judge who has been assessed as fit to ride and to have enough knowledge of the subject to fairly just a class.
Without that - you are just basically going under the local know it all!!

 

[Mithras]

Could you please clarify: you say he is a MW Hunter but then go on to say you show him in RH classes?
Confused, sorry.
And echo, local level show rides judges can be hit and miss, but a County level ride judge will expect an obedient, forward going ride with manners and outline. They should not have to "ride" (i.e school) your horse, rather he should go forward until asked to slow and move on when asked.

RH = Ridden Hunter (not riding horse). Sorry for the confusion. He's definately not a Riding Horse.

I appreciate he has faults but tbh if you sit quietly and keep your hands low and still, he goes pretty nicely and in a good outline. Albeit he is slightly reluctant to come down from canter and you might need to ask twice but after his gallop he will automatically pull himself up. As I school him more this will improve - and I don't ride him for an hour first in draw reins as I noticed the winner the other day did before the class. But if you get a rider that constantly niggles every stride with their legs and tries to haul him into an outline, he will keep increasing his pace. But he is a big powerful horse and has quite a bouncy canter and a big stride, he doesn't go like a show hack and do a hack canter.

(Actually the time that he went worst was the one time I had him in the M/Ws at a county level show and he was rather worked up at the occasion. Quite embarrasing. However it was the one show where the judge rode him beautifully and gave good feedback, and we just missed out on a place, which was completely understandable).

As for his height and build, I am perplexed as to what I can do. To hear remarks about him being a big horse in Ridden and Working Hunter classes just peplexes me. He's not a skinny 15.2 TB, he's a hunter! He's meant to be big to be true to type!

I've been complimented in Ridden Hunter classes for his "medium trot" - again, surely this is not what hunter classes should be about!?

I don't want to slow him down too much just for the sake of showing, as I want him to go forwards properly for jumping.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Answered your own question there! Becuase if you are not showing under any societies rules, you are not going under a panel judge who has been assessed as fit to ride and to have enough knowledge of the subject to fairly just a class.
Without that - you are just basically going under the local know it all!!

^ This

I 'used' to take county level animals out locally for experience or schooling.
To do this, you need to have nerves of steel & a hide like a rhino to cope with the wonderful things that some of the judges come out with

A story:
A fuzzy who had done early qualifiers for HOYS & qualified in spring, subsequently went lame in a field 'hiccup' by early June & had time off till 4 weeks before HOYS.
The only outings we could find him were a couple of local shows, just to get his eye in, so to speak. Lobbed him in 2 classes at the 1st (no, we were NOT pot hunting, just having an outing, so coudn't give a stuff about placings).
Fine with him being placed 6th out of 7, couldn't see why he was down the line, but thats the judges perogative....

However, had issuses with the un-necessary comments that were made on giving rosettes out:
"Shame she's obviously owned by professionals who should know better than to be at a show like this" (hmm, didn't you see it was a gelding?)
"However, I saw her go on the wrong leg each time in the class and you do know she doesn't move straight don't you dear?"
(Correct leg each time, unlike 3 others above in line. The said animal went on to be 4th overall at HOYS & did even better the following season at many county shows. My vet was ROTFL at the comment about movement, it was what gave the animal an edge as it was so straight & true)

What I want to say Mithras - is please don't get down with local worthies who get asked to judge at local level.
Some of them can be good, others do it because they always have done, even tho they might be better off watching TV with a huge magnifying glass.......

Go & do at least 3 or 4 county level shows - with different panel judges, if asked, they will usually be very happy to oblige if asked for comments or feedback

Good luck