Riders versus the BHS, BEF, BD, BE, FEI the whole cabooodle!

macarthur said:
it would be fair unless it was insisted it had square steering wheel - or no wheel at all :-)
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There was a car mass produced that had a square steering wheel lol. Can't think of the name right now, but it was an Austin and was of the same era as the Morris Marina etc. Might have been an Allegra??
 
Ladyinred said:
We prefer bitless and always ride bitless at home but, if we go out, we realise that there are rules that have to be adhered to and so we teach a horse to go both bitted and bitless. I do think if a horse is capable of doing a dressage test bitless then it should be allowed to.. BUT, with a restriction on the type of bridle used; eg the German hackamore with the very long shanks would not IMO be acceptable and neither would some that fit excessivelky low and tight across the nose.

It's a minefield. This argument has been simmering away for years and is no closer to resolution. I suppose we also have to ask where it would end if bitless were allowed? A cordeo might be a tad risky round Badminton ;)
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See now Macarthur, Ladyinred's post is well written, concise and balanced which is going to invite far more discussion than your illogical rants.
 
Ladyinred said:
There was a car mass produced that had a square steering wheel lol. Can't think of the name right now, but it was an Austin and was of the same era as the Morris Marina etc. Might have been an Allegra??
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Ah, the Austin Allegro. A very "special" piece of British design!

OP, I can't imagine any of the governing bodies quaking in their boots about your survey. They do take tack very seriously though and it is a challenge already for stewards to police what bits are allowed at competitions as new variations are created so frequently. To add the minefield of which bitless or combination bridles are allowed would be completely unworkable.

The idea that a horse becomes useless if it can't compete, or that you have a right to dictate to an organisation what their rules should be IS both hysterical and arrogant.
 
Does one gather from the hysterical outburst that you're not awfully keen on bits? By all means, go bitless, but maybe accept that whilst it may be your preference, that doesn't give you the right to dictate to everyone else what they should do.

I don't have a problem with barefoot, bitless, different training techniques, etc etc. I just wish that some of the people who have chosen to go down these routes weren't so militant. The inferences of cruelty aimed at those of us who use bits, have our horses shod, and don't own a carrot stick are frankly, a bit flippin tedious, and if anything, make me less inclined to read the barefoot, bitless threads.

Bloody hippies;)
 
I thought that study showed a difference in the impact of different bitless bridles? Just like different bits have a different action and effects so may or may not be legitimate for different activities, some bitless bridles may be rather severe and controlling of the head in ways that affect submission, for example, and therefore unsuitable for some activities, e.g. dressage.
 
If a horse is injured and although recovered enough for everyday riding but it now fails to comply with BD rules then unfortunately you just have to suck it up.
I have a horse with a thrombosis in her jugular vein. Three years on the thrombosis has stabilised but there is a huge lump of scar tissue which prevents her working in an outline. As a result my horse is no longer going to be competitive when doing BD no matter how well she works through from behind or works into a contact. When a horse is injured in some way you just have to deal with the consequences. I love doing dressage but my horse survived and is happy and healthy so I either have to enjoy schooling her the best I can at home or do something different with her. If I want to compete at a decent level BD I will need another horse, that's what happens if a horse gets injured, you can't expect the sport to change to suit your individual situation.
 
At a slight tangent, the comment about a free country is a dire mis-quote, Britian is a country of free speech, NOT free actions.
If you join any club, then you agree to abide by their rules, if you don't like the rules, then don't join.
 
My views are stated under your thread in the competition section. As for anything goes, no thanks. Just take a look at horse junkies united to read about the US hunter scene.
 
I happen to agree about riding bitless, as my mare can't take a bit and I am restricted in what we do but I would love to do more.
Having said that, I agree with the majority. If tack rules are dropped, you will get all sorts of things going on. A level playing field is needed and restrictions on bits/tack is partly how this is achieved.
 
YorksG said:
At a slight tangent, the comment about a free country is a dire mis-quote, Britian is a country of free speech, NOT free actions.
If you join any club, then you agree to abide by their rules, if you don't like the rules, then don't join.
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sorry, continuing on the tangent but I disagree! England is a free country in that we have the right to do anything that is not prohibited by law, compared to a civil law jurisdiction where you only have rights that are given to you by law. As for the op, if you want to start a thread about bitless then it might be more successful without the dramatics. Associations have rules and procedures for updating them, I doubt a slightly hysterical petition is going to achieve change.
 
So is this a discussion about being able to use whatever tack you want, when ever - because that was how I read the original post. Or is it a discussion about riding bitless? Because if so, the OP wasn't worded very well.

I would love to be able to ride dressage in a bitless bridle and I don't believe it would be too difficult to define. After all there are a 101 different types of bit out there, and they don't have a problem defining those. However as long as the rule says I must compete in a bit, so be it. Never mind I could ride FEI CEI3* endurance bitless .....
 
As I understand the rulings British and FEI dressage is the only discipline that insist on bit being worn by the horse, and that is due to the wording of the rules. Many years ago a ruling was brought in to ensure that novice horses were ridden in snaffle bits. This is was to ensure the horse wasn't put into a double bridle before he was ready for it.....at that time, of course it was unthinkable that bitless riding would become so popular! We have progressed immeasurably over the past 20 years or so and many of the traditional rules and ideas have become outdated, so if the discipline wishes to continue with the ideals that are the foundation of its principles, then the governing bodies need to move with the times and recognise that bitless riding is actually a good thing and should be encouraged!! The same progress should be applied to the use of shoes, and modern hoof boots!! At the present time the antiquated ideas and rules are becoming a laughing stock.....
 
Ladyinred said:
Macarthur could you please use the quote button as this is confusing. Thanks.

We prefer bitless and always ride bitless at home but, if we go out, we realise that there are rules that have to be adhered to and so we teach a horse to go both bitted and bitless. I do think if a horse is capable of doing a dressage test bitless then it should be allowed to.. BUT, with a restriction on the type of bridle used; eg the German hackamore with the very long shanks would not IMO be acceptable and neither would some that fit excessivelky low and tight across the nose.

It's a minefield. This argument has been simmering away for years and is no closer to resolution. I suppose we also have to ask where it would end if bitless were allowed? A cordeo might be a tad risky round Badminton ;)
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Whoops - such a long time since I came on this friendly and open minded site I forgot the quote buttons - so I hope this works. The opening thread was meant to stimulate your interest (in an otherwise boring day) to draw your eye - so that's why its written as it is - if I offended the 'eye' well I am sorry, the horse world is full of such sensitive souls.... or maybe you see me as fresh meat lol.

So lets get back to the basics. When the rules were written in the 1920's the french translation of in the hand was given as on the bit. That appears to be the stumbling block. Any rider of merit who knows how to train a horse to high levels of movement knows it comes through incremental training with lightness - the pressure on the mouth is for communication not to hold in the head - hence why youngsters were NEVER started in bits in the early stages (not wanting to damage sensitive tissue or block the movement) <fast forward> So now with the advent of equitation science and with growing awareness on training and behaviour researchers being able to measure more and understand what is good, bad and desirable etc,. new ideas have populated and inventions have come to the fore.... Naturally people look at new ways on how to control and direct the horse - the tack! So new bridles have been invented, the Micklemem, Cross Unders, Orbitless, Matrix, Side pulls etc - times they are a changing. This is a good thing and advances our understanding of horses and raises standards of horsemanship - we learn and observe, we question and we debate.

Nose nets are allowed for hoses with head shaking issues in dressage - so why not a bridle without a bit? for those horses that develop the same aversive behaviour? The worlds international scientists are clear on this with a strong statement in 2009 and again in 2013 saying that the robust evidence from around the world, indicates that BB should now be allowed in all horse sport since there are good welfare reasons to allow them and safety and performance are not compromised." So I put to you - There are NO reasons not to allow bb, the only hurdle is the archaic rules - which seem to be protected by those people that fear change - especially when it is something they do not understand or have little 'personal' experiance of, which is of course a nonsense.

Science tells us that only the pressure of the weight of the reins should be placed on the head - before we begin to stress the horse. How many riders ride constantly on the mouth with more pressure than this or balance on the head if they are novice - that alone might make one think tack that is not so painful such as BB might be an option.?

Then we have horses that cannot tolerate bit pressure (also true with nosebands!) so should we ethically force them into a bit? or noseband? Of course not! We should read our horse and observe what seems to suit him best (yes also with vet and other professional advice for some riders)- goes without saying that we need to constantly improve ourselves in biomechanic terms too. So now we ride better have a horse that can perform , but just wont tolerate the bit - we say that is unfair and if the rider wants to compete bitless they should, The dressage term should be 'in the hand' not on the bit... after all it is the HAND and the seat that should be classically conditioned to communicate - if you ride well.

so now to the comment re injuries - of course horses get injured and heal however and its more common than one might think, that the bit then is often very uncomfortable for the horse (the mouth already been identified as highly sensitive to pain by science) that's nothing to do with poor riding. imagine if this conversation were about Valegro ? would you all be saying then retire him! I think not! ;-) a fit supreme athlete and ultimate performer - retired for the sake of a bit? Do we really think only the bit is the crux of Valegro's training - of course it is not - its the minor part of a great pairing who's training is meticulous - I suspect Valegro would ride equally well bitless, bridless and bareback - he is super talented as is his rider!!!

So lets summarise - the rules have ALREADY changed to suit horses that cannot tolerate pressure in the mouth (nose nets) or have irritation from airways etc. (nose nets) so why not no bit? There is nothing to fear from a rider in a bitless bridle - this is about choice - the rules on harmony, harshness poor riding etc still will exist - if the bitless riders don't get placed or win - that's their choice.As it will be and is the judges decision. BD will have to decide which bridles are acceptable - hackamores cannot be included, nor low or tight nosebands - that is for discussion.

Netherlands are allowing bb in pure dressage from 2014 they have realised that its beneficial to the sport and that the judges mark like any other horse performing at that level. The UK should follow suit on grounds of welfare and fairness to all riders and horses. I hope that I have now answered all your points on all the posts kindly responded.

Just a couple of more things... one of the worlds most eminent vets....Bob Baskerville FEI London Olymic 2012 Team vet SUPPORTS the option for bitless bridles in dressage and all horse sport (see the petition) ditto Jimmy Frost a GRAND NATIONAL WINNING jockey - who thinks "horses go better bitless" If these great horsemen are prepared to consider, revue and on balance take the view that bitless bridles should be an option for SOME horses then should'nt those of you here that flatly say not on spurious grounds re-consider the facts.

This is not hysteria its about putting the facts on the table - if something hurts the horse we should not be using it or we must look to an alternative.

I train with horses that are bitted (and bitless) but in truth I see far better results in bitless so yes I am pro-bitless that's nothing for me to hide. But I am more pro-good riding, I am about self improvement and education for riders. We cannot think that all we have learned passed down the years is the only way forward - nor, that all of it is rubbish - we must critique what we do, why and how we can improve. We should be open minded to change and to the evidence of thousands of riders around the world in bb who do compete and survive to tell the tale lol!

sorry for long post but I think based on the acidic comments from some (trolls etc lol) it deserved to be said. And lets remember no-one is forcing you to sign the petition for CHOICE! - That's your choice ;-) Freedom of speech.

Rules are there to be changed...
 
Now your last post was fine. Explained without seeming arogant like earlier posts

To be honest in your first posts you sounded quite like a young person throwing a tantrum about being entitled to this and that :).

I for one am getting fed up of mostly young people who think they should be able to change all the rules because 'it isn't fair'
Or that the world owes them something And felt you post fit in with that train of thought

However going back to BB. I don't have much knowledge on them. But the ones I have seen have fairly long shanks. Would this affect submission more than a snaffle? I don't know

Rules are rules and it takes time to change things. Arrogance or seemed arrogance won't help the cause

Looking from the point the horse has injuries that prevent it using a normal bit. That may or may not be a legimate reason to change the rules
But where do you draw the line? A horse with an old back injury can only be ridden in a bareback pad or a leg injury or brushes really badly and vet says always wear boots
 
I see that now I have arrived that sense has been somewhat restored and people are saying that they would like the option to ride bitless and that they think the rules should be changed - excellent!
To those who say that the rules are there to be adhered to and not changed if you choose to join an association I truly hope you are still compliant with the original rules when you compete because to do otherwise would surely be a little hypocritical after all you have all just said.
Rules change in line with new science, new equipment, new understanding and need - training is changing and evolving and to some degree so are horses. We are breeding them hotter and lighter with smaller heads and with smaller heads come smaller mouths. Some horses bred in this fashion will tolerate bits less well. Some horses are bred by people like me who have a relatively mainstream, continental dressage education and always believed that the bit was not the problem but the person holding the reins until I actually had to earn a living re training mentally broken horses and realised that some will never get over the poor use of a bit but can be trained perfectly successfully and happily bitless with a very mild bridle solution. Permanent injuries do not have to be physical although for whoever thought that tendon injuries do not constitute maimin as the horse cab be considered recovered enough to return to competition needs to go back and revisit the nature of tendon and ligament injuries as they do not heal to an as new state ever. Good that we are all on the same page though and do not want to see injured horses out competing hey but we might need a full psychological assessment done on most of them as many are not terribly well inside their heads I feel....
More critically to my decision to train my own horses bitless was my daughter who since she was tiny has refused to ride bitted and if she is offered a pony to ride with a bit will not pick up the reins so clearly I had to make sure her ponies were safely trained and responsive and also my own youngsters who have all been carefully and tactfully prepared to accept their bits and so never refused them or showed direct conflict behaviour but all without fail became lessened by the bit in their mouths and that was just on the ground before ridden work began. Bits are for communication not control via the threat of pain so I feel I have no use for them if they take something away from my horses. I may or may not choose to compete any more on ethical grounds but if I do then it will be in dressage and while I do not give a flying monkey about prizes and will happily compete HC my inner pedant screams that if dressage is about training and a correct w of going what on earth has a bit got to do with that and why should I be excluded? Other rules have changed and lots of them recently - look now at all the various ear bonnets and fly fringes that are allowed, Micklem bridles for those that find them more comfortable, nose nets crucially why on earth not simple bitless bridles. Clearly there has to be some dialogue about which bridles are to be dressage legal but seriously is it so hard to say padded side pull with loose noseband?
 
Yes bitless, indeed any bit ate allowed at all levels of endurance including FEI. Do we have issues with people using inappropriate bits? Not that I've ever witnessed. For information the horses are vetted, including having their mouths checked before, during and after every ride which is more than any other affiliated discipline. At this point please do not confuse British endurance with the disgusting actions of certain Arabian nations. There are no tack restrictions. Does this create an unlevel playing field? No. Will tack snobs tell me how dreadful we look and they don't want to descend to our level, yes because it is always said. Agree original post not well worded, but why not ask the question, rules should regularly be reviewed, things move on
Are many of these mired in old dogma, absolutely. I remember taking a BHS exam, having a good discussion with my tutor, and the final advice was give the examiner what they want to hear no matter if it's stuck in the past and not accounted for newer proven improvements. To me this said everything about the blinkers they wear.
 
You can show jump bitless, you can do XC and SJ phases of eventing in certain bitless bridles, you can do endurance bitless. Only dressage you can't.

What is the difference? Dressage, like showing (which also disallows certain bits and certainly bitless) marks the horse on it's way of going and it's submission, and the contact. Hence dressage, like showing, also bans boots, martingales, certain nosebands and certain bits. In SJ/XC/Endurance, if the tack helps the horse achieve the aim, then you can use it. But in dressage, the aim is to show that the horse doesn't need it.

It wouldn't be dressage if you could stick on a grackle, a running martingale, and a bitless bridle, as those pieces of tack completely change how your horse does. So instead of being on an equal playing field and marking how well your horse submits to the contact, and is soft in the jaw, you are being marked on how much tack you can stick on to change the way your horse goes.

Below elementary, no one is allowed a leverage bit of any kind, and nosebands like grackles and kinetons are banned - why should a bitless which will either have leverage shanks, or put pressure on the nose, then be allowed.

I'm not anti-bitless, I am just as against the use of boots/certain nosebands/martingales etc in dressage as I am bits. The point of the restrictions is that there is a level playing field, with simple tack that doesn't affect how one horse goes compared to another. It is the way of going that is being marked. I mean, I could complain that since my horse gets stressed in a warm up ring, we should be allowed individual warm ups as my horse would go so much better... however that isn't the way the game is played. My horse is more stress, but it doesn't mean we break the rules for me.

And tack isn't about changing the rules - it's about changing what dressage IS. If we could put whatever the hell tack we liked on, it wouldn't be dressage, as you couldn't mark and compare. Modernising the sport and updating rules is fine - I agree re: shoeing, and things like allowing rising trot to Medium etc - but allowing bitless would actually change what dressage IS.

Say what you like about the Netherlands - they've obviously been smoking too much dope :D :L

Interesting article re: bitless in dressage training: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/11/03/bitless-or-not-it’s-about-having-choice

"When asked if a bitless bridle is kinder and more friendly to the horse, Dr. Hilary Clayton replied, “I approach it scientifically. There is pressure on the nose. We looked at the cross-under bitless bridle and discovered there is twice as much pressure with this noseband, on a localized area. So padding the nosebands in that area is necessary. We need to look at more different types of bridles, but they are not totally benign either. It’s a matter of evaluating the horse. Don’t just assume you take the bit away and it’s more friendly.”"
 
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khalswitz said:
You can show jump bitless, you can do XC and SJ phases of eventing in certain bitless bridles, you can do endurance bitless. Only dressage you can't.

What is the difference? Dressage, like showing (which also disallows certain bits and certainly bitless) marks the horse on it's way of going and it's submission, and the contact. Hence dressage, like showing, also bans boots, martingales, certain nosebands and certain bits. In SJ/XC/Endurance, if the tack helps the horse achieve the aim, then you can use it. But in dressage, the aim is to show that the horse doesn't need it.

It wouldn't be dressage if you could stick on a grackle, a running martingale, and a bitless bridle, as those pieces of tack completely change how your horse does. So instead of being on an equal playing field and marking how well your horse submits to the contact, and is soft in the jaw, you are being marked on how much tack you can stick on to change the way your horse goes.

Below elementary, no one is allowed a leverage bit of any kind, and nosebands like grackles and kinetons are banned - why should a bitless which will either have leverage shanks, or put pressure on the nose, then be allowed.

I'm not anti-bitless, I am just as against the use of boots/certain nosebands/martingales etc in dressage as I am bits. The point of the restrictions is that there is a level playing field, with simple tack that doesn't affect how one horse goes compared to another. It is the way of going that is being marked. I mean, I could complain that since my horse gets stressed in a warm up ring, we should be allowed individual warm ups as my horse would go so much better... however that isn't the way the game is played. My horse is more stress, but it doesn't mean we break the rules for me.

And tack isn't about changing the rules - it's about changing what dressage IS. If we could put whatever the hell tack we liked on, it wouldn't be dressage, as you couldn't mark and compare. Modernising the sport and updating rules is fine - I agree re: shoeing, and things like allowing rising trot to Medium etc - but allowing bitless would actually change what dressage IS.

Say what you like about the Netherlands - they've obviously been smoking too much dope :D :L

Interesting article re: bitless in dressage training: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/11/03/bitless-or-not-it&#8217;s-about-having-choice

"When asked if a bitless bridle is kinder and more friendly to the horse, Dr. Hilary Clayton replied, &#8220;I approach it scientifically. There is pressure on the nose. We looked at the cross-under bitless bridle and discovered there is twice as much pressure with this noseband, on a localized area. So padding the nosebands in that area is necessary. We need to look at more different types of bridles, but they are not totally benign either. It&#8217;s a matter of evaluating the horse. Don&#8217;t just assume you take the bit away and it&#8217;s more friendly.&#8221;"
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This, oh this ^^^^ You have put this brilliantly! Couldn't agree more.
 
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