Riding a horse in an outline - different methods of asking...

horsemad32

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I've been taught one way (which concurs with all the dressage books I've read), yet two friends have been taught another. They're adamant they're right, as that is what their instructors have said.

What I was taught:
1) Impulsion first, going forward in a rhythm.
2) Take a contact and ride forwards into it. Contact needs to be such that if they lower their head onto the bit, it is comfortable and light (yet never a loop in the rein), if they raise their head it's stronger. Nudges with leg encourage horse to go forward and to lower the head.
3) If they lock their jaw against you, little twiddles with the fingers to loosen the jaw, get them chewing and thus get the lowering and submission.
4) Once head is down, keep a steady light contact. If it's too light, or hands unsteady, or too heavy, head will pop up again.

Obv with a trained horse you just ride forwards into a contact and they lower their head - my two do anyway! They will then follow the contact down to stretch, or collect/extend etc as a result of you altering how much there is.

The way they were taught:
1) Niggle at the jaw with alternate reins back and forth, no steady contact needed. Head goes down.
2) Every time head comes back up, back and forth with the reins again, so in theory get head down with an almost non-existent contact.
In practice from what I can see, hands always moving, head only kept there by constant reminders from the hands. Often loops in reins.
 

LEC

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Explaining how to ride into a contact is one of the hardest things because so much is about feel and the way the horse goes. There are many roads to Rome as well.

Personally the horse has to be forwards first. I have been taught not to touch the mouth until they are truly forwards and off your leg. Once they are forwards you pick up the contact in the reins. A consistent contact is vital with still hands because a horse needs to feel confident in it to take it forwards. Rather than a light contact I prefer to think of it as elastic as sometimes a horse can be light in the contact and not true.
 

Polotash

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I agree with you. How your friends have been taught is why you see so many horses head swinging. My Dutch-trained trainer (does that make sense!) calls the the "English" way of asking, I get the impression they all laugh at us doing this left-right-left-right nonsense on the continent!

Having said this, I vibrate the rein to ask usually, but this does NOT require you to move the hand or go slack-tight-slack on the rein, it's purely a finger vibration. Asking for lots of inside and outside flexion (like you see showjumpers doing) is another method of softening, and one I use on my older (Medium) boy, but again, it is NOT slack-tight-slack and nor does it swing the horses nose!
 

dafthoss

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Depends on what your riding. The small pony I ride needs to be straightened up first so no falling in or out, continuous line from ears to tail with no body popping attempts, making sure he doesnt quiken or drop off during this process as he tries both. Then making sure you have an even feel along both reins and he doesnt stiffen either side of his jaw or dive to the floor then he drops down nicely, although not consistently yet as when he looses balance we go through the whole process again but it takes less time each time we do it.

The YP is a totally diffrent customer and I cant really expalin how it works with him, it just does but not for every one, just a chosen few that he likes.

Which one is easier to ride in an outline, the first as he is much more systematic you sort X Y & Z and it happens, which is easier to ride generally, the YP much less correcting to be done and much more likely to stay on.
 

JFTDWS

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I'm pretty sure Nuno Oliveira said that reins may be "attracted by gravity" because of their looseness if the horse is in self carriage. It's my excuse anyway.

Can't stand this sawing nonsense - you can see the rider's hands moving backwards and forwards every stride - vile.

My lad the more you fiddle or pressure him, the more he'll resist. He needs to be given space and softness to work into softly himself - with lots of transitions and collection, ensuring he's forward and me remembering how to ride like a normal human - then he'll offer soft, responsive work on a light contact, in a reasonably correct outline (given his conformation and level of training).
 

Tonks

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I always think about the scales of training, both the German scales of training and those of the Behaviourist, Andrew McClean

1. German: Rhythm, suppleness, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection

2. McLean: Basic Attempt, , Obedience, Speed control, Line control, Outline control, Engagement, Proof (he can do the above in all environments)

I think the aim is also 'self carriage'.

These two are similar and form a holistic way of training the horse rather than just about fiddle with the fingers, etc.
 

Mondy

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I find the notion that 'an outline' is equivalent to pulling the head down rather worrying and agree with Tonks.

If the horse is not balanced and supple through the back then no correct outline is forthcoming. I recommend a near-pathological emphasis on the correct rider position and lots of transitions ridden for the seat into a light, steady contact.
 

labruyere

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not exactly a difficult question...

you want the horse soft, even and level on the end of the reins...

how the bl**dy hell are you ever going to achieve that by sawing at their mouth, twisting their head backwards and forwards, etc...

penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully

what you are describing is the difference between
  • encouraging a horse to work on a contact
  • getting the horse on the bit
when I rule the world, anyone attempting the latter will be lined up against a wall....

re:loops in reins ULTIMATELY a horse in true self carriage would work correctly for short periods like this
at the lower levels think of what the judge is looking for
on a 'give and retake of rein'

...
 

Emma S

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When I teach working the horse on the bit I explain it as -

Your sat on a tube of toothpaste (which is the energy) and when you can squeeze the toothpaste (energy) out of the tube (horse) you are then going to put the lid on (contact).
Everything comes from behind and you contain the energy, in a light contact. I find this explaination helps when you then need to apply the leg to encourage the head up from going BTV. if you squeeze the tube the lid will give way (head comes back up to the contact).

I don't know if that makesense in writing but it works in teaching! :)

I hate seeing see-saw hands and horses with their back end never working through but they look 'pretty' so it must be right
 

hcm88

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The second method is just sawing their mouths to force them down rather than riding in an outline. If you're forcing their heads without developing the impulsion and movement from behind first then the horse won't be moving forward correctly. It might 'look' like an outline I.e horses head is down but it's not true and any decent dressage judge will pick up on it!

I see a lot of people self-teaching them to ride a horse 'on the bit' by sawing and it's a shame as it can't be good for the horse at all!
 

Goldenstar

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Contact like submission is a difficult thing to describe but contact is not just about the mouth it's about the seat the tops of the legs the lower leg and the hands for a long time I thought about contact in terms of the bit but then I realised that it's just part of it like submission it's about all of the riding aids and the whole of the rider and the whole of the horse.
 

siennamum

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not exactly a difficult question...

you want the horse soft, even and level on the end of the reins...

how the bl**dy hell are you ever going to achieve that by sawing at their mouth, twisting their head backwards and forwards, etc...

penny to a pound their instructors are BHS trained through and through and have never competed, certainly not affiliated and certainly not successfully

what you are describing is the difference between
  • encouraging a horse to work on a contact
  • getting the horse on the bit
when I rule the world, anyone attempting the latter will be lined up against a wall....

re:loops in reins ULTIMATELY a horse in true self carriage would work correctly for short periods like this
at the lower levels think of what the judge is looking for
on a 'give and retake of rein'

...


I've never had a BHS trained instructor tell me to windlass the horses head - nor seen it in a BHS manual or at any BHS college. The BHS people I've been trained by like Patrick Print or come into contact with like Pammy Hutton or Carole Broad, are rather more classical and would be horrified (and suprised) I expect if they thought any of their pupils were training people to do this.

I suspect in fact it comes from uninformed people who have watched Ben Maher et al asking for exagerrated left right flexion and are imitating it. They are also finding that it works to get the horses head in and don't know any better.

I generally find the easiest way to have a horse work into the hand is on a circle, inside leg - outside hand, they elevate their shoulders then and you get a real feel that they are connected.
 

Jenni_

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I was taught not to shoot straight for an outline, but to be 'forward, straight and relaxed' and it would follow.

Horse must be off your leg to the slightest touch, moving of your leg and away from it (increase impulsion & yielding)

straight, horse must stay on its 'train tracks' - no dipping out through the shoulders, correct bend etc - lot's of circles, especially 10m ones for this.

relaxed... if the jaw is relaxed, the poll can relax, if the poll is relaxed the neck can relax then the back and shoulders can relax (theoretically!) so vibrations through the fingers to ask them to relax the jaw, ask them to stretch down to loosen the poll / neck - or neck FLEXIONS not head SHAKIING it's amazing the people who think they are riding flexions when really the horse is just moving it's head and is rigid at the poll!

A consistent and elastic contact is key. if the horse puts its head above / beyond the vertical, the hand should be stationary and firm (not HEAVY) enough to say 'No no, not there' but in the position to regain the elastic contact when the head is in the correct position. Never pulling the head into position, just advising.

Emma S - that's a even better way of teaching it than me! I struggle to explain that... just now I say 'your horse is a Ferrari engine behind you and brakes at the front- but just because it can go 150mph doesn't mean it needs to all the time. Sometimes you need to put on the brakes a bit to control it' which is no way near as good as your explination... which I am now stealing!
 

Polotash

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I use the toothpaste analogy too, works a treat for getting people to create and contain energy.

The other one which is good for people struggling with contact is to imagine the reins are a baby bird - hold too tight and you'll squash it, too loose and it'll fly away.
 

wench

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Depends on the horse. I had real problems with my old horse, Henry. He would pretty much do everything nice and balanced, but I could not get him going in a "real" outline. His default setting =was nose poke.

I tried all sorts of exercises mentioned by people on here/in books - changes of rein, paces, trotting poles. You name it, I did it, nothing worked. Until I went to a dressage instructor, she gave me a couple of exercises to do. Hey presto, horse was suddenly working much better than he was before, and somehow managed to produce this amazing trot he had never done before. Shame he couldnt repeat when we went to a competition, and just had tantrums instead.

However, Henry was a slightly older horse, and was also bone idle. He preferred clawing himself along with his front legs, as it was obviosuly easier than working properly. The exercises I used on Henry would have been no use on a baby horse, and I suspect that Henry had been asked to work properly many years ago in his younger years.

On the flip side, my baby horse (rising 4), I was pretty sure put herself into an outline. I never asked for it, but you could be trotting along in the school, and all of a sudden she would soften, and seem to carry herself differently. I am guessing she was using herself properly, and this was the result.

So to summerise - horses for courses. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and what works for one horse will not work for another.
 

tristar

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i get the horse to find its own rhythm so it does'nt lose balance, then make it straight, i can see no point trying to get a crooked horse go any further, i always ride on a light contact, all this only works if the horse is properly broken and moves away from the leg willingly, eventually the horse puts itself on the bit, BUT it needs a still, balanced and correctly positioned rider who does'nt impede the forwardness.

i am amazed at the speed of some dressage horse's trot's, they look like they are in a trotting race, and seem to me they are ploughing on downhill to the detriment of their future ability to collect.
 

Jenni_

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I know a dressage rider - good one at that too - who believes in having them work down and on the bit first, then working on impulsion - so back to front.

Hey ho if it works for her - which it obviously does- then who am I to question it as long as it's not cruel.
 

TrasaM

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I know a dressage rider - good one at that too - who believes in having them work down and on the bit first, then working on impulsion - so back to front.

Hey ho if it works for her - which it obviously does- then who am I to question it as long as it's not cruel.

But I wonder what the horse thinks? Does he have a choice? I watched a dressage lesson some months ago and was admiring the fitness of the rider. The instructor stood in the middle and demanded more of everything..leg rein bend.straightness. ( imagain this being shouted in loud vouce and dutch accent and you'll get the picture ) This went on for about 20 minutes and had been going on for some time before I got there. At the end the poor horse stood with his head down and his next stretched out. He'd been kept in a tight contact throughout the session so no wonder. It was not a happy sight. I know this may be an extreme example but when a dressage test takes just minutes why should a poor horse who was trying his best to please be kept working for extended periods in this awful position. I learnt two things that day:- for dressage I'm going to have to get much fitter and that I am not ever going to ride a horse in this manner. I'm going down the Philippe Karl route now. No more force besides I don't have the biceps for it :)
 

Halfstep

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There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ;)) by most riders in this country.

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher.

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.
 

Tempi

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There are two traditional schools of thought on contact and acceptance of the bit. On the one hand, there is the German school (broadly described), whereby "balance" comes through motion - hence, send them forward into an elastic, accepting contact, keep them straight with a swinging back and asking the hind leg to step further under the body. The contact is established via the bridge of muscles from the impulsion created off the hind leg over the back to the hand. This is the most common theory that is followed (in better and worse ways ;)) by most riders in this country.

Then there is the "French" manner, which is based on the teachings of Baucher to some degree, and is followed today by Phillipe Karl, but also (believe it or not) in some aspects is found in Dutch riding. In this theory, the horse's balance comes first, and movement is second. The horse is taught at the halt to accept the bit, then at the walk, etc. Traditionally, the horses trained in this manner are hotbloods or Iberian horses (as per the Cadre Noir, or Nuno Olivera's school). The horse is encouraged to maintain an upright posture, and there is less an emphasis on the extended gaits and more on the collected. These horses are often allowed to be above the bit because the upright open posture is prized above all. The suppleness is not created through impulsion in the German manner, but through flexions and yielding to the hand (lightness). The modern Dutch emphasis on speed control and using a "baby trot" has a lot more in common with this way of riding than the German. They, however, added roundness of the neck and back in motion to the mix. But a lot of the ideas behind the Sjeff Janssen system can be traced back to Baucher.

In the end, the goal should be the same: a horse accepting the bit, with open, supple, straight gaits. The head should be slightly in front of the vertical or on the vertical in piaffe. But more importantly than the exact angle of the head (who rides with a protractor???!!), the horse should be even, supple and free in its movement. The problem with incorrectly applied theory (strangle hold on the bit, sawing, or conversely washing line reins and the fear to touch the horses' mouth) is that it creates uncomfortable, unhappy and often ultimately lame horses.

I have nothing to add apart from great reply!!!! :D :D
 

Caol Ila

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I doubt Boucher would have advocated see-sawing! I hate seeing people pulling at their horse's faces, trying to get them in a headset, when the horse is disastrously unbalanced and crooked. Why should the horse accept contact when contact is always this pulling, uncomfortable thing? When I was teaching, I would make the student (sans horse) hold the bridle or a halter, and I would take a hard contact and start pulling at it the way a lot of riders pull at their horses. Then I would ask the student if that was pleasant and did it convince them to "give" and go along with me, or would they rather avoid it. They said it wasn't very nice. Right, then. Don't do that to your horse!

I more or less follow the German scale, rather than the French method explained above. I suspect this has a lot to do with the types of horses those trainers worked with. Iberians are naturally upright and light, more so than most other breeds, whereas German warmbloods are less so. Everything I've ever ridden (warmbloods, draft crosses, quarter horses, TBs, Arabs and Arab crosses) seemed to work best when ridden forward and straight and when the horse found its balance and rhythm, then I'd start thinking about headset.

I keep my contact soft and elastic and when the horse thinks about coming on the bit, I reward him or her with even more softness and elasticity. The horse learns that this is the best place to be. When the horse accepts the contact, I introduce half halts and might start shortening the reins to indicate I want a shorter, more elevated frame. However, once the horse does what I want, lifting its forehand, I go back to being *really* soft, almost with loose reins and if the horse falls on the forehand again, I give it a little bit of resistance with the reins, while driving with seat and leg. When horse raises forehand and sits on hind end, I give the reins and stop nagging. Rinse and repeat, but horses catch on and you need less repeating. I have found that my horse will hold herself up in self-carriage quite happily with the lightest of contacts and she understands it better than she ever did when I went through my nag-nag-nag half-halt-and-hold period as a teenager. The release described above makes it clear to her what I want. If you hold them up, keep pulling, keep driving, there's no release so the poor horse has very little idea of what you're demanding.

With youngsters and horses who have been correctly trained from the outset, I have found that they start accepting contact and coming into a frame quite naturally. With older horses who have decided that contact is one of those things that should be avoided, it's much more complex and awkward problem.
 

Emma S

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Emma S - that's a even better way of teaching it than me! I struggle to explain that... just now I say 'your horse is a Ferrari engine behind you and brakes at the front- but just because it can go 150mph doesn't mean it needs to all the time. Sometimes you need to put on the brakes a bit to control it' which is no way near as good as your explination... which I am now stealing!


Help yourself! :) I find it makes people ride a lot more forward to the contact, instead of 'getting the head down' and then trying to push the horse forward, which I always like to think of as driving with the handbrake on!
 

elliefiz

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With youngsters and horses who have been correctly trained from the outset, I have found that they start accepting contact and coming into a frame quite naturally. With older horses who have decided that contact is one of those things that should be avoided, it's much more complex and awkward problem.

Completely agree with this. My horse was raced til he was 6 so had developed a very high head carriage with no idea of how to carry himself. When we first bought him he was reschooled by an international irish rider who spends alot of time in Germany receiving dressage training of the highest level. He has also trained with members of the Spanish school of equitation and would be highly regarded for his riding. I am putting this info in because there is no way he would "saw" at a horses mouth. With my racehorse no matter how forward going he was- he refused to accept the contact in walk. It was very alien to him. However the rider giving and taking the reins encouraged him to start softening- once he realised what he had to do it became less necessary to do this- working in an outline helped develop the muscles he needed to carry himself correctly and trotting and cantering in a correct frame was so easy for him.

He is back in work now after 18 months in a field. He has done some gentle hacking since he has started back and last night my new trainer sat on him for the first time. The horse reverted back to the old "star gazing" trick- walking round resisting all contact and fighting his rider. Trainer widened his hands- as in out towards his knees, and gently gave and took the reins walking around the arena- the transformation was instant- it was if a light switch came on in horse's head and he remembered what he was supposed to be doing. Trainer rode him through a very basic dressage test to see exactly what he could and couldnt do and horse was foot perfect.

I think to say that busy hands are incorrect is abit of a generalisation. I would prefer to see a rider give and take than rigid hands set against a horses mouth and a very unhappy horse. I lunge in a pessoa- the actions of a pessoa on the mouth would be similar to what i imagine a nice pair of hands are, which would be sympathetic and soft and elastic rather than set against the horses mouth.
 

Halfstep

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I doubt Boucher would have advocated see-sawing

Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school".

Anyway, I think the problem lies in a widespread misunderstanding of what "on the bit" means. Even the word "outline" (as in the title of this post) feeds into this misunderstanding. The uneducated think that it is all about the position of a horse's head. So they do anything they can to "bring the head in". See sawing on the reins is a very good way of getting the head in, because the horse does anything to avoid the discomfort! While also probably hollowing or stiffening the back, stepping out with the hind legs and falling flat onto its shoulder!

Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself? :confused:
 

Emma S

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Who said he would???!!! No one is advocating see-sawing, that is fundamentally incorrect in any "school".

Anyway, I think the problem lies in a widespread misunderstanding of what "on the bit" means. Even the word "outline" (as in the title of this post) feeds into this misunderstanding. The uneducated think that it is all about the position of a horse's head. So they do anything they can to "bring the head in". See sawing on the reins is a very good way of getting the head in, because the horse does anything to avoid the discomfort! While also probably hollowing or stiffening the back, stepping out with the hind legs and falling flat onto its shoulder!

Another point: very few riders in this country have the opportunity to learn to ride on an educated horse who can give them the feel of a correct contact. How can you teach a horse what is correct when you've never felt it yourself? :confused:

Completely agree!
Especially the last paragraph, and I think that it all generally comes back to - if everyone who breaks horses in and rides them away, rode to the same principle i.e. energy from behind, engage the hind legs and over the back to an light contact. We wouldn't have older horses that 'resist' and need alternative exercises to encourage them to work through.

But it's never going to happen!
 

Caol Ila

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I didn't mean to imply that you said he did. That was a poorly written rhetorical device. But I have experienced trainers/riders who think the French school = pulling the horse onto his hind end with the reins. Um, no.

I like the term "on the aids" better. I totally agree that "on the bit" gets people thinking too much about the horse's head and too little about the rest of the horse. I read a very good paper on this by Dr. Max Gahwyler and Bettina Drummond where they basically argue that "on the bit," while endemic to the modern dressage world in English-speaking countries, is actually a very poor translation of German and French. They claim that the exact French equivalent, which would be "sur le mors," appears nowhere in the early French FEI rules and definitions. The Germans had an extensive and descriptive equestrian vocabulary of their own, so they did not translate the French rulebook but had their own guidelines in "Basic Principles of Riding" and "Advanced Techniques of Riding" by the German Equestrian Federation. The German equivalent of "on the bit" does not appear in this, either.

They also point out that early, like seventeenth and eighteenth century early, manuals for dressage recommend training the horse in a cavesson or hackamore and then introducing the bit when the horse progressed to a certain level.
 
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